(not) another oakensoul thread - propose changes thread, don't complain it got nerfed.
Vylaera
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It got nerfed. Okay, cool. Every neat new thing does in week 3 and then it gets buffed back to somewhere in between in week 4 or 5. What we need to do is figure out where or how to buff it back.
There's a few changes we could make to bring it back to where it needs to be in order to actually have use in the game as a mythic item - keeping in mind the huge cost that it prevents you from using your backbar enchants, backbar set, and backbar abilities. Much utility, damage, and healing potential is lost when you lose your backbar, so you have to cram everything up front and are left a jack of all trades and master of none. Fundamentally, the ring needs to compensate for that loss of potential or else it won't be useful. With that all in mind, we can move on to the changes.
I think if they can make these few minor tweaks to it then it will be in a very good and balanced place.
It won't outperform 2bar builds, but that unique weapon/spell damage and adding sorcery/brutality would really bring its power back up without making it meta.
Edit: the following is what I believe would be well balanced and what might make the ring more intuitive for its purpose as a backbar replacement based on ideas shared in the comments of this post. I chose not to include my original idea for major mending for two reasons: one, because it become too stat dense, two because healing is already OP in PvP, though no one would complain if it made it into the mythic next week when changes come.
Option 1:
Option 2:
Edited by Vylaera on May 7, 2022 3:19AM There's a few changes we could make to bring it back to where it needs to be in order to actually have use in the game as a mythic item - keeping in mind the huge cost that it prevents you from using your backbar enchants, backbar set, and backbar abilities. Much utility, damage, and healing potential is lost when you lose your backbar, so you have to cram everything up front and are left a jack of all trades and master of none. Fundamentally, the ring needs to compensate for that loss of potential or else it won't be useful. With that all in mind, we can move on to the changes.
I think if they can make these few minor tweaks to it then it will be in a very good and balanced place.
- Replace Major Courage with a unique 450 weapon and spell damage bonus - Add Major Sorcery and Brutality - Add Major Mendingkeep everything else as-is.
It won't outperform 2bar builds, but that unique weapon/spell damage and adding sorcery/brutality would really bring its power back up without making it meta.
- The unique spell/weapon damage is to compensate for not having an infused backbar enchantment (450 is still lower than infused) which has kept one-bar builds in the toilet for so long. It is also to compensate for not having a backbar set like clever alchemist or Olorime you can proc on your backbar.
- Major Sorcery is a common sense addition because the ring currently provides all the bonuses you get from a Spell/Weapon Power Potion without the Power, so you have to either waste a bar slot on that buff or use a Spell Power pot which is then redundant with the other buffs you get from the ring.
- Major Mending is to compensate for not having a resto staff backbar for the PvP side of things akin to the WD backbar on the PvE side.
Edit: the following is what I believe would be well balanced and what might make the ring more intuitive for its purpose as a backbar replacement based on ideas shared in the comments of this post. I chose not to include my original idea for major mending for two reasons: one, because it become too stat dense, two because healing is already OP in PvP, though no one would complain if it made it into the mythic next week when changes come.
Option 1:
So a few ideas have been thrown around and I think this might be a good balance considering everything
Changes made:
Major Courage is not sourced by default for werewolves (Minor Courage is) and is typically rare to find in PvP unless you have a templar grouped with you synergizing Olorime with Channeled Focus (healers are almost exclusively in zergs or ball groups and werewolves are a solo playstyle), so this retains the exact same power for werewolves but allows PvE players to get their commonly sourced Major Courage from their healers and get a similar bonus from having an infused backbar Weapon Damage Enchant.
The Major recovery buffs are on most potions so it was a bit counterintuitive on this ring if it's intended to replace a backbar.
Major Expedition and Force are usually grouped together with Channeled Acceleration so I added those together. That is also a backbar ability so it is fitting those two buffs are added to this ring.
I don't think changing Major Resolve into a flat armor bonus would work well for werewolf balancing since werewolves get that through the Savage Strength passive and would be double dipping into armor for no cost since they are a one-bar-only transformation.
- (1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
- (1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Major Evasion, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
- While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets
Changes made:
- Removed Major Courage
- Removed Major Fortitude
- Removed Major Intellect
- Removed Major Endurance
- Added a unique flat 400 weapon and spell damage bonus
- Added Major Sorcery and Major Brutality
- Added Major Evasion
- Added Minor Force and Major Expedition
Major Courage is not sourced by default for werewolves (Minor Courage is) and is typically rare to find in PvP unless you have a templar grouped with you synergizing Olorime with Channeled Focus (healers are almost exclusively in zergs or ball groups and werewolves are a solo playstyle), so this retains the exact same power for werewolves but allows PvE players to get their commonly sourced Major Courage from their healers and get a similar bonus from having an infused backbar Weapon Damage Enchant.
The Major recovery buffs are on most potions so it was a bit counterintuitive on this ring if it's intended to replace a backbar.
Major Expedition and Force are usually grouped together with Channeled Acceleration so I added those together. That is also a backbar ability so it is fitting those two buffs are added to this ring.
I don't think changing Major Resolve into a flat armor bonus would work well for werewolf balancing since werewolves get that through the Savage Strength passive and would be double dipping into armor for no cost since they are a one-bar-only transformation.
Option 2:
So a few more ideas have been thrown around and I think this might be a good balance considering everything
(1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
(1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Reasoning for dropping the evasion and expedition is for werewolf balancing. Werewolves getting major evasion would make them a lot more powerful where they already can be very strong without it. Major Expedition is pretty commonly sourced in PvE from supports as well as sets so I don't believe it is necessary to add to this ring.
The reasoning for swapping those for Minor recoveries is because, in my copious amount of testing Oakensoul on PTS, recovery has been worse off overall compared to what can be achieved on a standard 2bar setup.
(1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
(1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Reasoning for dropping the evasion and expedition is for werewolf balancing. Werewolves getting major evasion would make them a lot more powerful where they already can be very strong without it. Major Expedition is pretty commonly sourced in PvE from supports as well as sets so I don't believe it is necessary to add to this ring.
The reasoning for swapping those for Minor recoveries is because, in my copious amount of testing Oakensoul on PTS, recovery has been worse off overall compared to what can be achieved on a standard 2bar setup.
Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author
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Sylas_Orin✭✭✭✭✭Largely agree with these proposed changes, though I think lowering the damage bonus to 400 would be better to keep Infused backbar ahead, since it provides 452 weapon/spell damage.Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.2 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
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Huh, I thought infused was 588 for some reason. Lowering to 400 is fair then, I think.BlissfulDelusions wrote: »Largely agree with these proposed changes, though I think lowering the damage bonus to 400 would be better to keep Infused backbar ahead, since it provides 452 weapon/spell damage.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author2 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
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OH that's right, infused is 30%, not 50%. That's where I got 588 from. I just found the glyph value at gold on UESP and then multiplied it by 0.5 and then added that to the original, not realizing I should have multiplied by 0.3 instead. Oopsie hahaBroughBreaux wrote: »
Huh, I thought infused was 588 for some reason. Lowering to 400 is fair then, I think.BlissfulDelusions wrote: »Largely agree with these proposed changes, though I think lowering the damage bonus to 400 would be better to keep Infused backbar ahead, since it provides 452 weapon/spell damage.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.
I see your logic, definitely. However, if they keep the Major recoveries and add Major sorc/brut then you can use different potions like heroism rather than being forced to use spell/weapon power or tristat.
If they remove the recoveries but add major sorc/brut then it still ends up being a half-measure because any potion you chose will have redundancies with the ring. Better to put the whole bonus of a Spell Power Potion on the ring than put most of it.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭Or they could replace the Major recoveries with Minor recoveries. This would prevent crazy stacking as you're still limited to a named buff, but you can get those major recoveries from a potion.
Heroism potion with resource recovery
Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author1 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.
I see your logic, definitely. However, if they keep the Major recoveries and add Major sorc/brut then you can use different potions like heroism rather than being forced to use spell/weapon power or tristat.
If they remove the recoveries but add major sorc/brut then it still ends up being a half-measure because any potion you chose will have redundancies with the ring. Better to put the whole bonus of a Spell Power Potion on the ring than put most of it.
There is a Magica + Stamina + Heroism potion. You'd be missing Fortitude but not a big loss IMO1 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.
I see your logic, definitely. However, if they keep the Major recoveries and add Major sorc/brut then you can use different potions like heroism rather than being forced to use spell/weapon power or tristat.
If they remove the recoveries but add major sorc/brut then it still ends up being a half-measure because any potion you chose will have redundancies with the ring. Better to put the whole bonus of a Spell Power Potion on the ring than put most of it.
There is a Magica + Stamina + Heroism potion. You'd be missing Fortitude but not a big loss IMO
Speed + Vitality would still be better plus you still get your Major recoveries and your speed. More freedom in which potions you want to run if you have the major recoveries baked-in your build via the ring.
Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author0 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.
I see your logic, definitely. However, if they keep the Major recoveries and add Major sorc/brut then you can use different potions like heroism rather than being forced to use spell/weapon power or tristat.
If they remove the recoveries but add major sorc/brut then it still ends up being a half-measure because any potion you chose will have redundancies with the ring. Better to put the whole bonus of a Spell Power Potion on the ring than put most of it.
There is a Magica + Stamina + Heroism potion. You'd be missing Fortitude but not a big loss IMO
Speed + Vitality would still be better plus you still get your Major recoveries and your speed. More freedom in which potions you want to run if you have the major recoveries baked-in your build via the ring.
Yeah but buffs like speed don't last the full duration of the potion cooldown like recoveries do0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭BroughBreaux wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.
I see your logic, definitely. However, if they keep the Major recoveries and add Major sorc/brut then you can use different potions like heroism rather than being forced to use spell/weapon power or tristat.
If they remove the recoveries but add major sorc/brut then it still ends up being a half-measure because any potion you chose will have redundancies with the ring. Better to put the whole bonus of a Spell Power Potion on the ring than put most of it.
There is a Magica + Stamina + Heroism potion. You'd be missing Fortitude but not a big loss IMO
Speed + Vitality would still be better plus you still get your Major recoveries and your speed. More freedom in which potions you want to run if you have the major recoveries baked-in your build via the ring.
Yeah but buffs like speed don't last the full duration of the potion cooldown like recoveries do
oh that's true. Not sure how useful Evasion really is though, I'd probably go for Major Expedition and Major Slayer (rather than Berserk because of PvP balance) to replace the recoveries and keep my initial addition of Major Mending (because PvP)Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author0 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd be okay with dropping Major Courage for a unique 450 WD, they need to get rid of Major Fortitude, Endurance, and Intellect as these are not buffs that you run on your backbar and can easily be replaced with a tristat potion. Replace them with Major Brutality/Sorcery, Expedition, and Evasion as these are typical buffs that you would run on your backbar and don't have room for in a 1bar build. If I were to replace something for mending it would be evasion but I lean towards keeping it over mending as thats more of a healer buff and if you wanted to heal with this ring you would be using resto staff anyways.
I see your logic, definitely. However, if they keep the Major recoveries and add Major sorc/brut then you can use different potions like heroism rather than being forced to use spell/weapon power or tristat.
If they remove the recoveries but add major sorc/brut then it still ends up being a half-measure because any potion you chose will have redundancies with the ring. Better to put the whole bonus of a Spell Power Potion on the ring than put most of it.
There is a Magica + Stamina + Heroism potion. You'd be missing Fortitude but not a big loss IMO
Speed + Vitality would still be better plus you still get your Major recoveries and your speed. More freedom in which potions you want to run if you have the major recoveries baked-in your build via the ring.
Yeah but buffs like speed don't last the full duration of the potion cooldown like recoveries do
oh that's true. Not sure how useful Evasion really is though, I'd probably go for Major Expedition and Major Slayer (rather than Berserk because of PvP balance) to replace the recoveries and keep my initial addition of Major Mending (because PvP)
I think people under value how much mitigation Evasion provides in PvE, especially since this ring is probably aimed at less mechanically experienced players who tend to stand in a lot of stupid. There also some of the unavoidae AoE you get hit with regardless of how skilled you are. In PvP it's also very usefull especially with how strong Templars are and all the plaguebreak and dark convergence being used these days along with a plethora of other AoE you're constantly being hit with. Still I don't think it would be too OP even on a werewolf if it replaced the recoveries the ring currently provides as now you can run armor potions whitch gives you good mitigation vs everything not just AoE.Edited by Yarcanine on May 4, 2022 7:35PM0 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Okay. I mean most threads that complain about it do make a point to post suggested changes. Or at least, mine does. But this is a more constructive thread, so I'll post my suggestions. The first suggestion is this:- Revert the nerf to its pre-nerf state. - Reduce the weapon and spell damage down from 450 to 300. - Reduce the crit rate from 1976 to 1349 - "Equipping this ring cures Lycanthropy. You cannot contract Lycanthropy while you wear this ring."
By reducing the effectiveness of the original ring and adding the flavorful new Lycanthropy cure to the item, it fixes the problems the developers had with the ring, but also still allows for people with an inability to play or aversion towards 2-bar builds to still participate in end-game veteran trials. Curing lycanthropy is an interesting effect for an item. It gives it utility beyond just being a combat centric item, and would always have usefulness. In its current state, ww players only really get the max attribute stats out of the ring anyway, so most won't use it if it's unchanged. It could easily also be a pvp specific change, something like "you do not gain the benefits of this ring in werewolf form while in cyrodiil or battlegrounds" allowing for players to still use it in 1v1, but removing the problem elsewhere. Werewolf is already strong in pvp and didn't need a buff, but isn't super strong in pve, so this option might be better even if I prefer the cure idea since it's more unique and flavorful.
I also have an alternative suggestion:- Add Major Berserk - Add Minor Force, or replace Major Courage with a unique 450 weapon and spell attack bonus. - Optionally, Add Major Sorcery and Brutality
Edited by merpins on May 4, 2022 8:01PM1 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Completely ruining the Ring for WW players is not a solution tbh. Just sayin.Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup5 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »Okay. I mean most threads that complain about it do make a point to post suggested changes. Or at least, mine does. But this is a more constructive thread, so I'll post my suggestions. The first suggestion is this:
- Revert the nerf to its pre-nerf state. - Reduce the weapon and spell damage down from 450 to 300. - Reduce the crit rate from 1976 to 1349 - "Equipping this ring cures Lycanthropy. You cannot contract Lycanthropy while you wear this ring."
By reducing the effectiveness of the original ring and adding the flavorful new Lycanthropy cure to the item, it fixes the problems the developers had with the ring, but also still allows for people with an inability to play or aversion towards 2-bar builds to still participate in end-game veteran trials. Curing lycanthropy is an interesting effect for an item. It gives it utility beyond just being a combat centric item, and would always have usefulness. In its current state, ww players only really get the max attribute stats out of the ring anyway, so most won't use it if it's unchanged. It could easily also be a pvp specific change, something like "you do not gain the benefits of this ring in werewolf form while in cyrodiil or battlegrounds" allowing for players to still use it in 1v1, but removing the problem elsewhere.
I also have an alternative suggestion:- Add Major Berserk - Add Minor Force, or replace Major Courage with a unique 450 weapon and spell attack bonus. - Optionally, Add Major Sorcery and Brutality
The ring is already less useful on werewolf and many of the buffs it gives are redundant. Adding weird lycanthropy stipulations to its use is not the answer. With the changes already discussed in this thread like removing Major Courage and giving it its unique 400-450WD back and replacing the recovery buffs with buffs normally ran on a back bar thus freeing up slots for other abilities I think it puts the ring in a good spot both PvE and PvP wise. Without overbuffing werewolvesEdited by Yarcanine on May 4, 2022 7:53PM1 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »Okay. I mean most threads that complain about it do make a point to post suggested changes. Or at least, mine does. But this is a more constructive thread, so I'll post my suggestions. The first suggestion is this:- Revert the nerf to its pre-nerf state. - Reduce the weapon and spell damage down from 450 to 300. - Reduce the crit rate from 1976 to 1349 - "Equipping this ring cures Lycanthropy. You cannot contract Lycanthropy while you wear this ring."
By reducing the effectiveness of the original ring and adding the flavorful new Lycanthropy cure to the item, it fixes the problems the developers had with the ring, but also still allows for people with an inability to play or aversion towards 2-bar builds to still participate in end-game veteran trials. Curing lycanthropy is an interesting effect for an item. It gives it utility beyond just being a combat centric item, and would always have usefulness. In its current state, ww players only really get the max attribute stats out of the ring anyway, so most won't use it if it's unchanged. It could easily also be a pvp specific change, something like "you do not gain the benefits of this ring in werewolf form while in cyrodiil or battlegrounds" allowing for players to still use it in 1v1, but removing the problem elsewhere.
I also have an alternative suggestion:- Add Major Berserk - Add Minor Force, or replace Major Courage with a unique 450 weapon and spell attack bonus. - Optionally, Add Major Sorcery and Brutality
The ring is already less useful on werewolf and many of the buffs it gives are redundant. Adding weird lycanthropy stipulations to its use is not the answer. With the changes already discussed in this thread like removing Major Courage and giving it its unique 400-450WD back and replacing the recovery buffs with buffs normally ran on a back bar thus freeing up slots for other abilities I think it puts the ring in a good spot both PvE and PvP wise. Without overbuffing werewolves
You hyper-focused on the red text that said no ww, and read nothing else.
1. The suggestion reverts the ring to its old state and nerfs it from there, making it op for ww's again.
2. I mention what you mention already, in that ww's don't get benefits from the ring other than the max attribute stats.
3. I make a secondary suggestion stating that rather than the ww cure, it could be a pvp specific nerf.
Go read my post again. Can't be actually constructive without reading everything someone said.Edited by merpins on May 4, 2022 8:00PM1 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »Okay. I mean most threads that complain about it do make a point to post suggested changes. Or at least, mine does. But this is a more constructive thread, so I'll post my suggestions. The first suggestion is this:
- Revert the nerf to its pre-nerf state. - Reduce the weapon and spell damage down from 450 to 300. - Reduce the crit rate from 1976 to 1349 - "Equipping this ring cures Lycanthropy. You cannot contract Lycanthropy while you wear this ring."
By reducing the effectiveness of the original ring and adding the flavorful new Lycanthropy cure to the item, it fixes the problems the developers had with the ring, but also still allows for people with an inability to play or aversion towards 2-bar builds to still participate in end-game veteran trials. Curing lycanthropy is an interesting effect for an item. It gives it utility beyond just being a combat centric item, and would always have usefulness. In its current state, ww players only really get the max attribute stats out of the ring anyway, so most won't use it if it's unchanged. It could easily also be a pvp specific change, something like "you do not gain the benefits of this ring in werewolf form while in cyrodiil or battlegrounds" allowing for players to still use it in 1v1, but removing the problem elsewhere.
I also have an alternative suggestion:- Add Major Berserk - Add Minor Force, or replace Major Courage with a unique 450 weapon and spell attack bonus. - Optionally, Add Major Sorcery and Brutality
The ring is already less useful on werewolf and many of the buffs it gives are redundant. Adding weird lycanthropy stipulations to its use is not the answer. With the changes already discussed in this thread like removing Major Courage and giving it its unique 400-450WD back and replacing the recovery buffs with buffs normally ran on a back bar thus freeing up slots for other abilities I think it puts the ring in a good spot both PvE and PvP wise. Without overbuffing werewolves
You hyper-focused on the red text that said no ww, and read nothing else.
1. The suggestion reverts the ring to its old state and nerfs it from there, making it op for ww's again.
2. I mention what you mention already, in that ww's don't get benefits from the ring other than the max attribute stats.
3. I make a secondary suggestion stating that rather than the ww cure, it could be a pvp specific nerf.
Go read my post again. Can't be actually constructive without reading everything someone said.
I did read it all before commenting and I responded that the item doesn't need to be reverted and nerfed or limit its use by werewolves whether in PvP or not as the suggestions provided earlier already address the problems you stated.1 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »Okay. I mean most threads that complain about it do make a point to post suggested changes. Or at least, mine does. But this is a more constructive thread, so I'll post my suggestions. The first suggestion is this:- Revert the nerf to its pre-nerf state. - Reduce the weapon and spell damage down from 450 to 300. - Reduce the crit rate from 1976 to 1349 - "Equipping this ring cures Lycanthropy. You cannot contract Lycanthropy while you wear this ring."
By reducing the effectiveness of the original ring and adding the flavorful new Lycanthropy cure to the item, it fixes the problems the developers had with the ring, but also still allows for people with an inability to play or aversion towards 2-bar builds to still participate in end-game veteran trials. Curing lycanthropy is an interesting effect for an item. It gives it utility beyond just being a combat centric item, and would always have usefulness. In its current state, ww players only really get the max attribute stats out of the ring anyway, so most won't use it if it's unchanged. It could easily also be a pvp specific change, something like "you do not gain the benefits of this ring in werewolf form while in cyrodiil or battlegrounds" allowing for players to still use it in 1v1, but removing the problem elsewhere.
I also have an alternative suggestion:- Add Major Berserk - Add Minor Force, or replace Major Courage with a unique 450 weapon and spell attack bonus. - Optionally, Add Major Sorcery and Brutality
The ring is already less useful on werewolf and many of the buffs it gives are redundant. Adding weird lycanthropy stipulations to its use is not the answer. With the changes already discussed in this thread like removing Major Courage and giving it its unique 400-450WD back and replacing the recovery buffs with buffs normally ran on a back bar thus freeing up slots for other abilities I think it puts the ring in a good spot both PvE and PvP wise. Without overbuffing werewolves
You hyper-focused on the red text that said no ww, and read nothing else.
1. The suggestion reverts the ring to its old state and nerfs it from there, making it op for ww's again.
2. I mention what you mention already, in that ww's don't get benefits from the ring other than the max attribute stats.
3. I make a secondary suggestion stating that rather than the ww cure, it could be a pvp specific nerf.
Go read my post again. Can't be actually constructive without reading everything someone said.
I did read it all before commenting and I responded that the item doesn't need to be reverted and nerfed or limit its use by werewolves whether in PvP or not as the suggestions provided earlier already address the problems you stated.
You didn't state that the item doesn't need to be reverted or even hint at that. In its current state, most of the bonuses granted are gained through a single potion. We know that, and people here have and in other threads have stated as such. There are only 3 meaningful bonuses provided by the ring outside of trials; Courage, Resolve (on a dps), and max attributes. But inside of a Trial, you're only gaining the max attributes. Reverting the ring and tweaking from there seems to be an equally simple way to go about it. By just stuffing it full of major and minor buffs, it will immediately become the premier go-to item of ignore game mechanics and buffs for normal dungeons and overland, and incentivize new players to ignore the buffs that the ring has and just... use the ring. It can be that way, sure, and by adding a couple more things to the ring, it can become something good. Add all those things to the ring, but change the courage bonus back for obvious reasons as people (including myself) have been saying. But making all bonuses unique bonuses is both more beneficial for the demographic this ring is made for, and better for the community since it'll still force players to learn the buffs and mechanics you need, rather than making them think that it's the go-to item and ignore everything else. As OP said, the ring wasn't overperforming in the first place, it only really gave 1-bar players 80-85% of the power of 2-bar players.1 -
Aoshy✭✭✭Replace Major Resolve for a flat value like before. Its too easy to obtain, its a passive nb too, wardens buffs all party etc ...1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do like the proposals to add Minor Force to the mythic. If I'm running a one bar build, I'd optimally like to focus more on "flavor" skills, namely Class abilities. Since no class abilities provide it, I'm either "forced" into running a skill like Barbed Trap (boring!) or Channeled Acceleration (ugh). Or, I'd need to run one of the handful of 5-piece sets which provide it (limiting).
Providing Minor Force on Oakensoul could free up some of the already limited bar space or allow players to avoid a necessary reliance on one of 4 sets.
That's my thought, for now.0 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭I do like the proposals to add Minor Force to the mythic. If I'm running a one bar build, I'd optimally like to focus more on "flavor" skills, namely Class abilities. Since no class abilities provide it, I'm either "forced" into running a skill like Barbed Trap (boring!) or Channeled Acceleration (ugh). Or, I'd need to run one of the handful of 5-piece sets which provide it (limiting).
Providing Minor Force on Oakensoul could free up some of the already limited bar space or allow players to avoid a necessary reliance on one of 4 sets.
That's my thought, for now.
Sure, reduce unique weapon damage from 450 to 350 and throw in minor force. Seems fairEdited by Yarcanine on May 4, 2022 11:25PM0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭So a few ideas have been thrown around and I think this might be a good balance considering everything- (1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
- (1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Major Evasion, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
- While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets
Changes made:- Removed Major Courage
- Removed Major Fortitude
- Removed Major Intellect
- Removed Major Endurance
- Added a unique flat 400 weapon and spell damage bonus
- Added Major Sorcery and Major Brutality
- Added Major Evasion
- Added Minor Force and Major Expedition
Major Courage is not sourced by default for werewolves (Minor Courage is) and is typically rare to find in PvP unless you have a templar grouped with you synergizing Olorime with Channeled Focus (healers are almost exclusively in zergs or ball groups and werewolves are a solo playstyle), so this retains the exact same power for werewolves but allows PvE players to get their commonly sourced Major Courage from their healers and get a similar bonus from having an infused backbar Weapon Damage Enchant.
The Major recovery buffs are on most potions so it was a bit counterintuitive on this ring if it's intended to replace a backbar.
Major Expedition and Minor Force are usually grouped together with Channeled Acceleration so I added those together. That is also a backbar ability so it is fitting those two buffs are added to this ring.
I don't think changing Major Resolve into a flat armor bonus would work well for werewolf balancing since werewolves get that through the Savage Strength passive and would be double dipping into armor for no cost since they are a one-bar-only transformation.
I'm also adding this to the top of the post to keep everything organized.Edited by Vylaera on May 5, 2022 1:03AMVy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author4 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »So a few ideas have been thrown around and I think this might be a good balance considering everything
- (1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
- (1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Major Evasion, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
- While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets
Changes made:- Removed Major Courage
- Removed Major Fortitude
- Removed Major Intellect
- Removed Major Endurance
- Added a unique flat 400 weapon and spell damage bonus
- Added Major Sorcery and Major Brutality
- Added Major Expedition
- Added Minor Force
Major Courage is not sourced by default for werewolves (Minor Courage is) and is typically rare to find in PvP unless you have a templar grouped with you synergizing Olorime with Channeled Focus (healers are almost exclusively in zergs or ball groups and werewolves are a solo playstyle), so this retains the exact same power for werewolves but allows PvE players to get their commonly sourced Major Courage from their healers and get a similar bonus from having an infused backbar Weapon Damage Enchant.
The Major recovery buffs are on most potions so it was a bit counterintuitive on this ring if it's intended to replace a backbar.
Major Expedition and Minor Force are usually grouped together with Channeled Acceleration so I added those together. That is also a backbar ability so it is fitting those two buffs are added to this ring.
I don't think changing Major Resolve into a flat armor bonus would work well for werewolf balancing since werewolves get that through the Savage Strength passive and would be double dipping into armor for no cost since they are a one-bar-only transformation.
I'm also adding this to the top of the post to keep everything organized.
Beautiful, this is exactly what I think would make this mythic worthwhile to use on one bar builds in all types of content and not stupidly powerful on WW. Although I think you forgot to add Evasion under changes made and it kind of messes up your add/remove 4 point. The WD bonus would need to be tested/adjusted to see if 400WD in combination with Minor Force pushes the DPS a bit too much. Nonetheless this is the direction I think they need to go with this Mythic.Edited by Yarcanine on May 5, 2022 12:49AM1 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭BroughBreaux wrote: »So a few ideas have been thrown around and I think this might be a good balance considering everything- (1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
- (1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
- (1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Major Evasion, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
- While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets
Changes made:- Removed Major Courage
- Removed Major Fortitude
- Removed Major Intellect
- Removed Major Endurance
- Added a unique flat 400 weapon and spell damage bonus
- Added Major Sorcery and Major Brutality
- Added Major Expedition
- Added Minor Force
Major Courage is not sourced by default for werewolves (Minor Courage is) and is typically rare to find in PvP unless you have a templar grouped with you synergizing Olorime with Channeled Focus (healers are almost exclusively in zergs or ball groups and werewolves are a solo playstyle), so this retains the exact same power for werewolves but allows PvE players to get their commonly sourced Major Courage from their healers and get a similar bonus from having an infused backbar Weapon Damage Enchant.
The Major recovery buffs are on most potions so it was a bit counterintuitive on this ring if it's intended to replace a backbar.
Major Expedition and Minor Force are usually grouped together with Channeled Acceleration so I added those together. That is also a backbar ability so it is fitting those two buffs are added to this ring.
I don't think changing Major Resolve into a flat armor bonus would work well for werewolf balancing since werewolves get that through the Savage Strength passive and would be double dipping into armor for no cost since they are a one-bar-only transformation.
I'm also adding this to the top of the post to keep everything organized.
Beautiful, this is exactly what I think would make this mythic worthwhile to use on one bar builds in all types of content and not stupidly powerful on WW. Although I think you forgot to add Evasion under changes made and it kind of messes up your add/remove 4 point. The WD bonus would need to be tested/adjusted to see if 400WD in combination with Minor Force pushes the DPS a bit too much. Nonetheless this is the direction I think they need to go with this Mythic.
Oh shoot I did hahah
well I could just consolidate the Force and Expedition into one bullet point because that's just Channeled Acceleration. So the 4 for 4 trade concept would still work.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭Updated for the expedition and evasion error.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author0 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭not a fan of adding brutality. some of the skills that give it you might want anyway for their primary effects..or standard pots
stay with numbers as prenerf. just lower them a bit.
change "can not bar swap" to "loose one usable skill bar".. I doubt WW will overperform with just LA/HA...Edited by remosito on May 5, 2022 6:40AMShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)0 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭not a fan of adding brutality. some of the skills that give it you might want anyway for their primary effects..or standard pots
stay with numbers as prenerf. just lower them a bit.
change "can not bar swap" to "loose one usable skill bar".. I doubt WW will overperform with just LA/HA...
Nothing is stopping you from slotting that skill for its other effects. The suggestion is to free up bar space and give more options for limited bar space by giving buffs to the ring that would normally be put on the backbar. As for the potions you're going to have a bunch of redundant buffs making them less viable. The point is not to make the ring useless for werewolves eitherEdited by Yarcanine on May 5, 2022 1:19PM0 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭not a fan of adding brutality. some of the skills that give it you might want anyway for their primary effects..or standard pots
stay with numbers as prenerf. just lower them a bit.
change "can not bar swap" to "loose one usable skill bar".. I doubt WW will overperform with just LA/HA...
Nothing is stopping you from slotting that skill for its other effects. The suggestion is to free up bar space and give more options for limited bar space by giving buffs to the ring that would normally be put on the backbar. As for the potions you're going to have a bunch of redundant buffs making them less viable. The point is not to make the ring useless for werewolves either
redundant buffs are bad. the more named buffs you give the ring. the more use cases, combos become bad or suboptimal choices...
so. dont put anything named on it.ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)1 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Let's just remove the ring entirely. Issue fixed.Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup1 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭not a fan of adding brutality. some of the skills that give it you might want anyway for their primary effects..or standard pots
stay with numbers as prenerf. just lower them a bit.
change "can not bar swap" to "loose one usable skill bar".. I doubt WW will overperform with just LA/HA...
Nothing is stopping you from slotting that skill for its other effects. The suggestion is to free up bar space and give more options for limited bar space by giving buffs to the ring that would normally be put on the backbar. As for the potions you're going to have a bunch of redundant buffs making them less viable. The point is not to make the ring useless for werewolves either
redundant buffs are bad. the more named buffs you give the ring. the more use cases, combos become bad or suboptimal choices...
so. dont put anything named on it.
For every skill that becomes suboptimal due to a redundant buff another becomes available because now you don't have to run a skill for the major buff it provides. Putting named buffs in solves multiple problems at the same time. Freeing up bar space for a one bar build and not overbuffing WW because they have some of these buffs built in while not making it useless on them.Edited by Yarcanine on May 5, 2022 2:22PM0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭You need major sorcery and brutality simply because you either have to use a spell power potion (which is redundant with the major prophecy and major intellect buffs) ornyou have to waste a space on your extremely limited bar to get that buff. Some classes don't even have a way to get it so you have to use degeneration from the Mages guild, or Venom Arrow from Bow, and DOTs for most classes have fallen out of favor over AOEs which perform better. You definitely don't want to run an ability which exists solely to provide that one named buff like Rally from 2H or the Netch on warden, as examples, because you don't have the bar space to get good damage to begin with. All your bar spots have to have a ton of utility. Need a heal on sorc? Don't run dark conversion because that's single purpose, run the clannfear because that's a pet that deals damage AND a heal.
You can't build the way you do for a 2bar build because you don't have those 5 extra slots.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author2