Retrospective, from a tank's perspective - kind of a rant.

renne · May 2022

drsalvation wrote: »

renne wrote: »

If there are one shot mechanics that are killing you, it might just be that it's a one shot mechanic that will kill you and instead of just standing there and taking it "because you're a tank" you have to actively avoid it.

You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block.

Of course... so what's the mechanic I have to do to avoid getting one-shot in Vateshran? What's the pillar I'm supposed to hide behind when the ring of ghosts start closing in? How many times does the damage buff sigil spawn in that battle to help me pass the DPS check to avoid getting one-shot? Why do tanks have to get so nerfed in terms of mobility speed when mechanics would require you to quickly position yourself on a place to avoid getting one-shot?

I mean, it's fair, and possible to avoid most one-shots, you assume I have no idea how to tank, but I'll dismiss that for the sake of the argument and not taking it personal.
I'm not expecting I can just block and do nothing and get out of one-shot mechanics with 100% health, there's a trial (I ran it on normal, I still don't believe I'm good enough to do vet), NCR I think, where you go down and face some spectral slugs, and then the whole floor turns red and you have to teleport to a balcony. I like this because DD's and Healers will DEFINITELY die.
A tank CAN survive it (but of course, it's going to be devastating) as long as they have HotS, protection runes, and an awful lot of resistance, plus blocking. It hits hard, and puts me in immediate danger and that's when the healer can save my dying arse. OR I could also teleport and avoid everyone the pain. It's devastating, but a good tank build can survive it, a good tank can be rewarded by not dying for having a great build and that can add to decision making, weather to go taunt the other dude who's chasing the DD and take the blast in the face and risk dying from taunting, or follow mechanics, let DD die and then go back to ress. That choice, while insignificant, it's still in a way an incentive to sacrifice all the other useful stats for the sake of going full-on tank. Without those choices, a hardcore tank and a mediocre one will meet the same fate, and I'd have no motivation to actually try a full-tank build.
And without tank damage mechanics (as I mentioned on other replies, making power slam a tank skill instead of a DPS one), it's nearly impossible to make mediocre PUGs with low DPS work. After all, the damage buffs a tank can give is about 10% so a 10k dps would be buffed all the way to 11k, which isn't significant (compared to a 50kdps up to 55k), so at the very least we could have a better way to contribute to DPS the same way an insta-kill (but not a one-shot) attack can save a DPS who actually knows how to block a minotaur attack in falkreath hold.

For Vateshran: Then you need to make a hybrid build, a build less focused on stacking health, or be a class that has skills to teleport through the tether. Like I said, if there are one shot mechanics then it might be a one shot mechanic and you can't just stand there and take it. Like the tether, you can't just expect to be able to block through the damage or hide behind a pillar. Yes, DPS checks are unfor for tanks. But it's the mechanic and there are ways around it.

For Cloudrest: Healers should not be going into portals to save the tank from choosing not to take the wind up to the platform to avoid damage. It should only be a tank and one or two DPS, and you shouldn't be facetanking the damage from the wind mechanic, you should be taking the synergy up to the platform. Yes, there are tank builds that can survive it, but I would argue against that being a good tank build or a good way to tank to be honest as a good tank build is way more than just building for your own survivability and taking damage from a mechanic when there's an easy way to avoid it.

Use a ranged taunt to hold Z'maja's shadow when you're away from her, for the wind for example, or running orbs (not usually required but sometimes depending on the situation), or to pull the adds off a DPS (not usually a problem in portals since the adds are usually heading FOR the portal to go upstairs). If you take the wind up then it doesn't matter if you get the mindblast, because you've not put yourself in danger by deciding to take the damage that is easy enough - especially on normal when there's a synergy at each corner - to avoid.

EozZoe1989 · May 2022

i know,, why not allow people to build there armours,, like they have done in the past and stop nefing .. allow them to do pvp and others the same .. depends on the person and the way they build not everyone is a pwer house some people like me are *** at the builds stuff and really i dont matter.. if you bad you bad lol if good fine .. its how people live longer than others lol.. and in the long run learn how to get stronger,
we need to accept people for who they are, nd what they are what they ear and let them learn from there own mistakes..
all armours should not be nerfed and all people should be happy then.. no bugs less nerfing and happy people lol

EozZoe1989 · May 2022

EozZoe1989 wrote: »

i know,, why not allow people to build there armours,, like they have done in the past and stop nefing .. allow them to do pvp and others the same .. depends on the person and the way they build not everyone is a pwer house some people like me are *** at the builds stuff and really i dont matter.. if you bad you bad lol if good fine .. its how people live longer than others lol.. and in the long run learn how to get stronger,
we need to accept people for who they are, nd what they are what they ear and let them learn from there own mistakes..
all armours should not be nerfed and all people should be happy then.. no bugs less nerfing and happy people lol

i did not wear i misspelled.. i do that a lot..

dmnqwk · May 2022

The thing to understand about tanking in ESO is you're not actually tanking.

It's okay for one game to have a different mindset about tanks than others - This isn't WoW, SWTOR, GW 1 or 2, DDO or any other MMO and the rules here are not the same as in other places, so it does suck to have to adapt to them.

As someone who has been tanking for almost 25 years I have never accepted the idea that tanks sit there and do nothing.
Coming back to ESO start of the year I found it hard to accept tanks do 5k dps and DD hit 50k, because it kinda felt pointless. So while I felt bad initially, I worked hard to figure out how to tank and still put in the numbers. So I researched, came up with some sets, and now my Warden might only do 12.5k single target, but can hit 50k-100k AoE with 55k health in the same setup I'd tank Vet Scalecaller Peak or Dread Cellar. My DK hits twice that single target but only 30-50k aoe and only 40k health, but doesn't get to permablock but im still happy.

Now, since I've been tanking 25 years I am getting older and with the emphasis on DD I am lucky that I can be dragged into AA for the second time ever, 1st time on hardmode, and hit 65k+ on the final boss because what is the same as every other MMO is that tank numbers for small content are in far less demand than trials/raids/operations (however you call them in the particular game).

It's understandable to want to play your way, but you have to acknowledge to play your way is a compromise of sorts. In PvP I use my warden in Battlegrounds and can come up 1/0/33 (yes, I have really done this before hehe. ONE kill, 33 assists), or I can be lucky and do like 17/0/22. Either way, it's me, tanking. But in Cyrodiil no-cp, wont work because the sets switch off, my self healing is terrible and my resistances are not enough so I have to adapt...

Being a tank doesn't just mean you get to do your own thing without question, it means adapting to the situation. I also agree that too many DD are bad at maths and fake queue without realising they make the run take longer because they didn't backbar puncture and the boss keeps moving.

drsalvation · May 2022

renne wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

renne wrote: »

If there are one shot mechanics that are killing you, it might just be that it's a one shot mechanic that will kill you and instead of just standing there and taking it "because you're a tank" you have to actively avoid it.

You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block.

Of course... so what's the mechanic I have to do to avoid getting one-shot in Vateshran? What's the pillar I'm supposed to hide behind when the ring of ghosts start closing in? How many times does the damage buff sigil spawn in that battle to help me pass the DPS check to avoid getting one-shot? Why do tanks have to get so nerfed in terms of mobility speed when mechanics would require you to quickly position yourself on a place to avoid getting one-shot?

I mean, it's fair, and possible to avoid most one-shots, you assume I have no idea how to tank, but I'll dismiss that for the sake of the argument and not taking it personal.
I'm not expecting I can just block and do nothing and get out of one-shot mechanics with 100% health, there's a trial (I ran it on normal, I still don't believe I'm good enough to do vet), NCR I think, where you go down and face some spectral slugs, and then the whole floor turns red and you have to teleport to a balcony. I like this because DD's and Healers will DEFINITELY die.
A tank CAN survive it (but of course, it's going to be devastating) as long as they have HotS, protection runes, and an awful lot of resistance, plus blocking. It hits hard, and puts me in immediate danger and that's when the healer can save my dying arse. OR I could also teleport and avoid everyone the pain. It's devastating, but a good tank build can survive it, a good tank can be rewarded by not dying for having a great build and that can add to decision making, weather to go taunt the other dude who's chasing the DD and take the blast in the face and risk dying from taunting, or follow mechanics, let DD die and then go back to ress. That choice, while insignificant, it's still in a way an incentive to sacrifice all the other useful stats for the sake of going full-on tank. Without those choices, a hardcore tank and a mediocre one will meet the same fate, and I'd have no motivation to actually try a full-tank build.
And without tank damage mechanics (as I mentioned on other replies, making power slam a tank skill instead of a DPS one), it's nearly impossible to make mediocre PUGs with low DPS work. After all, the damage buffs a tank can give is about 10% so a 10k dps would be buffed all the way to 11k, which isn't significant (compared to a 50kdps up to 55k), so at the very least we could have a better way to contribute to DPS the same way an insta-kill (but not a one-shot) attack can save a DPS who actually knows how to block a minotaur attack in falkreath hold.

For Vateshran: Then you need to make a hybrid build, a build less focused on stacking health, or be a class that has skills to teleport through the tether. Like I said, if there are one shot mechanics then it might be a one shot mechanic and you can't just stand there and take it. Like the tether, you can't just expect to be able to block through the damage or hide behind a pillar. Yes, DPS checks are unfor for tanks. But it's the mechanic and there are ways around it.
.

Then I believe you missed the whole point of this post.

drsalvation · May 2022

@dmnqwk I understand about compromising as a tank and what the capabilities are, I keep saying I don't expect to be a huge burst 40K dps tank at all.
I'm saying that anything that had potential to make tanks fun and engaging is being taken away for the sake of DPS builds.
I'm saying that power slam could've been one of many skills that are fit for tanking in a fun way, now it's a generic spammable for DPS.
Defensive runes are just as effective if a tank casts them or a DD casts them.

I have a DD build I switch between dungeons and PvP (mostly PvP), and if I want to run vateshran with that same build, I'm perfectly capable of doing so, if I want to run dungeons, I swap out a few skills and that's it. With the damage build I have I'm able to enjoy the entire game.
With my tank build, I'm not. I'm "locked" out of most 'activities' until I drastically change my build, as @renne said, "For Vateshran: Then you need to make a hybrid build" (AKA, get rid of tank and make a new build, which again, my DD build handles it perfectly).

What I'm saying, once again, I'll try to be clear and simple:
There are DPS checks in this game, there is only 1 tank check (banished cells II when playing with a group with low DPS, you need to stack all the daedroth and survive and keep the herd). Vateshran is just as challenging for a tank as it is for a hybrid/dps build, DPS builds have to kill the adds and deal splash damage to the boss, if they don't the adds will overwhelm a DPS with damage coming from all directions. A tank won't clear all the adds, so they need to focus on the boss while surviving being attacked by all directions. It's not just standing there and doing nothing, there's a lot of effort that comes to that which is just as challenging AND FUN to play. The tether could've been both a DPS OR a tank check (DPS won't survive - kill a ghost and escape) or tank (Tank won't be able to kill a ghost, buff up everything and prepare HoTs to survive the blast)
It's a valid style for both DPS and Tanks.
People who say tanks are just blocking and taking make it seem that they've never played as tanks before.
There's ALWAYS good incentive to max out your DPS build.
But there's no real incentive to max out your tank builds. We have the option to go for it, but what's the point? The game's design deprecates any real reasons to max out a tank build. The only reason there is to max out a tank is because even a tank with more damage is still mediocre in every aspect so it's not like having any other sort of approach would make it any better.

Why is it "bad" to make power slam a tank skill?
Tanks need to block, DD's also do but not as often, so that skill used to stack 10 stacks of resentment, but since game devs don't care about tanks, now it only stacks 1 time so that DD's can make the most of it.
It could've been a skill that scaled off your max health or defense, keep the 10 stacks, and at the highest stack, it could've been a massive burst coming from tanks, and first morph could've made the attack release in a cone, and the second morph could've been an execution, which would be a cool skill to reinforce the ideas that tanks are the ones who block, and get rewarded by doing so with a cool skill, since you can't block one-shot mechanics.
Now, it's just blocking once for a 50% cost reduction for DD's (currently it's 33% more damage but it's getting nerfed to a cost reduction, so if a tank wants to get even the slightest buff from blocking, they'd need to swap out a CP to equip the damage buff slot from blocking).

If I haven't made myself clear now, imagine if all restoration staff skills scaled off your weapon damage and max stamina but still cost magicka to cast.

renne · May 2022

drsalvation wrote: »

People who say tanks are just blocking and taking make it seem that they've never played as tanks before.

That's a weird conclusion to come to and also not what I said.

I HAVE tanked before and I also do endgame content (as DPS, yes) so I know good tanks DON'T just do that, because as I said "You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block." and "if there are one shot mechanics then it might be a one shot mechanic and you can't just stand there and take it".

That said if you think there aren't plenty of tanks in this game who just poke and hold block I invite you to pug vet dungeons where mechanics actually matter as a DPS or healer to see for yourself.

(AKA, get rid of tank and make a new build, which again, my DD build handles it perfectly).

Again, not what I said. I never said get rid of tank and make a new build at all.

Chuck on a burst damage 5 piece and monster set and a couple of burst damage skills on your tank and you will be more than capable of breaking the tether. Heck, don't even change your gear, just swap around some CPs for damage and put on some burst damage skills. OR do a combo of all of it. It's not making a new build, it's making your tank viable for that specific fight while still being your tank. Otherwise I would have straight up just said "respec in the armory". Ain't nothing wrong with swapping gear for the content midrun.

I'm trying to offer suggestions here to help so you can clear the content in Vateshran on your tank and feel like you've achieved. Instead all you had to say was accuse me of missing the point. Like my paragraphs about the portal phase in Cloudrest, it's feedback to help, and I know you deleted it out of your reply to my comment but I do hope it helps you in tanking nCR in future, and you get more confidence to tank more trials because they really are quite fulfilling content.

drsalvation · May 2022

renne wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

People who say tanks are just blocking and taking make it seem that they've never played as tanks before.

That's a weird conclusion to come to and also not what I said.

I HAVE tanked before and I also do endgame content (as DPS, yes) so I know good tanks DON'T just do that, because as I said "You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block." and "if there are one shot mechanics then it might be a one shot mechanic and you can't just stand there and take it".

That said if you think there aren't plenty of tanks in this game who just poke and hold block I invite you to pug vet dungeons where mechanics actually matter as a DPS or healer to see for yourself.

(AKA, get rid of tank and make a new build, which again, my DD build handles it perfectly).

Again, not what I said. I never said get rid of tank and make a new build at all.

Chuck on a burst damage 5 piece and monster set and a couple of burst damage skills on your tank and you will be more than capable of breaking the tether. Heck, don't even change your gear, just swap around some CPs for damage and put on some burst damage skills. OR do a combo of all of it. It's not making a new build, it's making your tank viable for that specific fight while still being your tank. Otherwise I would have straight up just said "respec in the armory". Ain't nothing wrong with swapping gear for the content midrun.

I'm trying to offer suggestions here to help so you can clear the content in Vateshran on your tank and feel like you've achieved. Instead all you had to say was accuse me of missing the point. Like my paragraphs about the portal phase in Cloudrest, it's feedback to help, and I know you deleted it out of your reply to my comment but I do hope it helps you in tanking nCR in future, and you get more confidence to tank more trials because they really are quite fulfilling content.

I didn't reply to your NCR comment because you explained mechanics and it's not what I was talking about. I've done NCR, I brought it up just to make a point: It's a mechanic that can one-shot mediocre tank builds, but good tank builds can survive it, it's good to have an option. That's about it. It's not that I'm upset that I suck at tanking, it's that there's little to no incentives to go full-out tank.
There ARE good reasons to max out DPS builds, there are NO good reasons to max out tank builds.
That's all I'm saying, that's it. There are no skills that get better as you improve your tank builds, every defensive skill will protect you just as much as if a DPS build casts it. Damage shields scale off max health, which is good, but then the synergies cast of the synergy caster's health, so it's not like even my health pool as a tank would benefit a 20khp DPS.
There are no tank checks, but there's an awful lot of DPS checks.
And everything that could've made tanks fun is being rework for DPS instead.

That's all.
I'm not asking to 'nerf' the difficulty on dungeons and trials, I'm not asking for advice (tho despite the whole thing, I still appreciate it, it's just not part of what I'm asking for) on how to git gud, I'm asking for the devs to show some love to support roles and make things that can make playing those roles fun outside of having to be with a well-prepared group or suffer in PuGs.

renne · May 2022

drsalvation wrote: »

renne wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

People who say tanks are just blocking and taking make it seem that they've never played as tanks before.

That's a weird conclusion to come to and also not what I said.

I HAVE tanked before and I also do endgame content (as DPS, yes) so I know good tanks DON'T just do that, because as I said "You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block." and "if there are one shot mechanics then it might be a one shot mechanic and you can't just stand there and take it".

That said if you think there aren't plenty of tanks in this game who just poke and hold block I invite you to pug vet dungeons where mechanics actually matter as a DPS or healer to see for yourself.

(AKA, get rid of tank and make a new build, which again, my DD build handles it perfectly).

Again, not what I said. I never said get rid of tank and make a new build at all.

Chuck on a burst damage 5 piece and monster set and a couple of burst damage skills on your tank and you will be more than capable of breaking the tether. Heck, don't even change your gear, just swap around some CPs for damage and put on some burst damage skills. OR do a combo of all of it. It's not making a new build, it's making your tank viable for that specific fight while still being your tank. Otherwise I would have straight up just said "respec in the armory". Ain't nothing wrong with swapping gear for the content midrun.

I'm trying to offer suggestions here to help so you can clear the content in Vateshran on your tank and feel like you've achieved. Instead all you had to say was accuse me of missing the point. Like my paragraphs about the portal phase in Cloudrest, it's feedback to help, and I know you deleted it out of your reply to my comment but I do hope it helps you in tanking nCR in future, and you get more confidence to tank more trials because they really are quite fulfilling content.

I didn't reply to your NCR comment because you explained mechanics and it's not what I was talking about. I've done NCR, I brought it up just to make a point: It's a mechanic that can one-shot mediocre tank builds, but good tank builds can survive it, it's good to have an option. That's about it. It's not that I'm upset that I suck at tanking, it's that there's little to no incentives to go full-out tank.
There ARE good reasons to max out DPS builds, there are NO good reasons to max out tank builds.
That's all I'm saying, that's it. There are no skills that get better as you improve your tank builds, every defensive skill will protect you just as much as if a DPS build casts it. Damage shields scale off max health, which is good, but then the synergies cast of the synergy caster's health, so it's not like even my health pool as a tank would benefit a 20khp DPS.
There are no tank checks, but there's an awful lot of DPS checks.
And everything that could've made tanks fun is being rework for DPS instead.

That's all.
I'm not asking to 'nerf' the difficulty on dungeons and trials, I'm not asking for advice (tho despite the whole thing, I still appreciate it, it's just not part of what I'm asking for) on how to git gud, I'm asking for the devs to show some love to support roles and make things that can make playing those roles fun outside of having to be with a well-prepared group or suffer in PuGs.

I think part of the problem is that we're approaching this from two difference sides as to what we believe a good tank build and/or a full out tank is. I don"t think what you think and what I think of as that are the same thing, but that's absolutely NOT to say that either of us are wrong. It's just a different perspective, especially given that tanking in this game in particular can be such a hugely varied role - and I'm not talking about hybrid tanks, stacking into DPS or healing as well. But yeah, anyway, I just think we're approaching it from different sides is all.

And I personally think there ARE tank checks so to speak in vet group content, but the "checks" aren't explicit the way DPS or heal checks are, they're more about managing the encounters if that makes sense? Like in vet content, especially vDLC content, I would say for the vast, vast majority of players, a tank is always required, and the different levels of competency - the things that the tank does, beyond holding aggro, like grouping adds with the boss so they die in cleave, buffs and debuffs, etc - is what absolutely changes the difficulty of a boss encounter.

But the thing is, when it comes down to it, I completely agree with you. Especially after pugging two vet pledges tonight where in neither case was the tank a real tank (vFV - absolute disaster, dropped on the first boss, vFG2 - despite being in there on a DPS with the DPS role, I was holding aggro the whole time). If there were things in the game that made tanking and healing - ESPECIALLY tanking - more fun, it would make the game better for the rest of us who don't tank full time because more people would actually WANT to play the role. Like I said earlier, I've tanked, and there's a reason why I stopped: because it's not fun.

RedTalon · May 2022

All the reflect gear and so that worked well in pvp for tanks got nerfed hard a couple of years back, harbinger and so on

Stick to objective matches depending on your style don't need to delve a lot to get a solid set up to run relics or land grabs, just get a ring of wild hunt some blessed gear and whatever other gear you want, but be ready to reflect tmeplers spears so go with shield and one hand skill line

drsalvation · May 2022

renne wrote: »

But the thing is, when it comes down to it, I completely agree with you. Especially after pugging two vet pledges tonight where in neither case was the tank a real tank (vFV - absolute disaster, dropped on the first boss, vFG2 - despite being in there on a DPS with the DPS role, I was holding aggro the whole time). If there were things in the game that made tanking and healing - ESPECIALLY tanking - more fun, it would make the game better for the rest of us who don't tank full time because more people would actually WANT to play the role. Like I said earlier, I've tanked, and there's a reason why I stopped: because it's not fun.

I'm glad we're on the same page, and sorry I couldn't really articulate that point. And yeah, this is the whole point of this thread.
Anything that could make tanking fun is reworked for DPS builds instead.

I think there should be more emphasis on sets and skills that are only useful for either PvP or PvE, they took mist form away from PvE and it only works on PvP, it took me some time to accept it, but while still bitter, I'm sure a lot of us have moved on. So why not follow that same principle and give us fun tank skills and styles that only work on PvE so that said things won't get exploited on PvP. Like @RedTalon said, harbinger was nerfed to the ground, harbinger + resilient yokeda were very fun, (resilient is still a nice set despite its nerf).

Maybe if they start splitting PvE and PvP skills, then we could start getting fun stuff as tanks without worrying about it being used to exploit builds in PvP and vice versa, but I think this is off topic and meant for another day hehe.
Hope your day is chill!