Resolution to Oakensoul Debate
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dinokstrunz✭✭✭✭✭
✭MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »WW are underperforming in PVE and over performing in PVP. This isn't really an issue with the ring, and yet again an issue with ZoS insisting on balancing PVE and PVP together, rather than biting the bullet and balancing them separately. over the last 8 years it's been shown that balancing the two sides of the game together does not work. And I'd hate to see this ring, which is a bit overtuned despite the pros and cons people have been pointing out and probably should have a small nerf, I'd hate to see this ring be yet another casualty of the balancing issues plaguing the game.
Overperforming in pvp? What patch are you from lol?4 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dinokstrunz wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »WW are underperforming in PVE and over performing in PVP. This isn't really an issue with the ring, and yet again an issue with ZoS insisting on balancing PVE and PVP together, rather than biting the bullet and balancing them separately. over the last 8 years it's been shown that balancing the two sides of the game together does not work. And I'd hate to see this ring, which is a bit overtuned despite the pros and cons people have been pointing out and probably should have a small nerf, I'd hate to see this ring be yet another casualty of the balancing issues plaguing the game.
Overperforming in pvp? What patch are you from lol?
I called this out in another thread a few weeks ago, but I think people are underselling WW power this patch. The hybrid scaling changes really helped WWs out a ton, especially with healing that now scales off either max stat. So the need to stack spell damage to get decent heals is gone and WWs can focus on weapon damage which increases their healing and damage. This ring is just going to amplify that.4 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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WW healing scales with health & costs magicka. It does not scale with highest offensive stat. If it did, then you would not have to build for so much max health for a decent heal. Besides - you can cast healing 2 - 3 times at most... and then you are out of magicka and for the most part also... dead XDdinokstrunz wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »WW are underperforming in PVE and over performing in PVP. This isn't really an issue with the ring, and yet again an issue with ZoS insisting on balancing PVE and PVP together, rather than biting the bullet and balancing them separately. over the last 8 years it's been shown that balancing the two sides of the game together does not work. And I'd hate to see this ring, which is a bit overtuned despite the pros and cons people have been pointing out and probably should have a small nerf, I'd hate to see this ring be yet another casualty of the balancing issues plaguing the game.
Overperforming in pvp? What patch are you from lol?
I called this out in another thread a few weeks ago, but I think people are underselling WW power this patch. The hybrid scaling changes really helped WWs out a ton, especially with healing that now scales off either max stat. So the need to stack spell damage to get decent heals is gone and WWs can focus on weapon damage which increases their healing and damage. This ring is just going to amplify that.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 26, 2022 2:01PM3 -
Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭It will be brought down a peg in pts 3 just like Gaze of Sithis was. It can be balanced right around Gaze's stat density because you lose the ability to get multiple 5 set bonuses while using it, just like Gaze prevents using a monster set.0 -
Gegen✭✭I play Werewolf on all content, but i play too NB, DK, Necro (mag and stam) on PVP and PVE (not a Templar fan). I play this game from 2014. As i read the replays on the Werewolf, i think ppl are just afraid Oakensoul Ring will be nerfed and they wont be able to play one bar builds they like.
On live
PVE DPS Vet Trials: Werewolf wont even be taken in consideration due the low DPS beside constantly need to feed u wont be able to stay transformed
PVE DPS Vet Dungeons: are not a problem, constantly need to feed can be still very annoying. Is hard and sometimes impossible to stay transformed on a Vet Dungeon from start till the end (as DPS Werewolf)
PVE Tank Vet Trials: is just a no go. "If you are doing any serious level of content or progression it would be best not to use a Werewolf as it’s not possible to give your group the proper support they need while in Werewolf form."
https://thetankclub.com/eso-werewolf-tank-build/
Proper support means: u don't have an Ultimate at all and cant use Aggressive Horn (or Glacial Colossus like Necro), u cant use a backbar Ice Staff Infused with Crusher, Werewolf have no range pull or taunt, no Minor Breach, if u use a Monster Helm u cant use a Mythic, u are limited in the sets u can use and so on...
PVE Tank Vet Dungeons: can be done but on all other tank classes is a lot easier and faster to finish the content then as a werewolf tank. If u want an Achievement u just don't play as an Werewolf Tank due the lack of "proper support" (see above). What makes things a lot harder is that Werewolf have no range taunt at all, and no range pull ability. Rush of Agony set helps but is just 10 m and can be used every 8s comparing other pull abilities (Unrelenting Grip and Silver Leash) that are 22 m and u can use every 1s
If PTS with Oakensoul Ring goes live
PVE DPS Vet Trials: Werewolf have better DPS, maybe u will be accepted in group but u still need constantly to feed and u wont be able to stay transformed
PVE DPS Vet Dungeons: better DPS, still annoying feed mechanic
PVE Tank Vet Trials: is just a no go. nothing changes
PVE Tank Vet Dungeons: nothing changes
As to PVP, i think we should consider 1v1 but also Group v Group and what this means as a Werewolf in PVP.
It seems all are just testing 1v1 but PVP is mainly Group v Group
On live:
PVP 1V1: u have to build full Tank and low DPS, there is no way around or experienced players will kill an Werewolf in few seconds.
Werewolf main heal scales with max HP, Werewolf take bonus damage from Poison (more 25%?) and Fighters Guild (more 20%), no escape mechanic, weak heal over time ( Claws of Life ) witch u cant compare with Radiating Regeneration witch anyone uses backbar or some other classes self heals over time.
PVP Group V Group: Werewolf is really bad, u have to build full Tank and u have no AOE heal like Radiating Regeneration witch stack and still get bonus damage from Poison (more 25%?) and Fighters Guild (more 20%). In a good organized group or Battlegrounds a Werewolf is just free AP and a liability for his group.
If PTS with Oakensoul Ring goes live
PVP 1V1: Werewolf is strong but can be killed. Still takes bonus damage from Poison (more 25%?) and Fighters Guild (more 20%) skills.
PVP Group v Group: here is where Oakensoul Ring could make Werewolf playable again, not overpowered but playable. Werewolf brings no support for his group but is stronger alone.
Conclusion:
PVE DPS and Tank: Oakensoul Ring in will make Werewolf better but still not as good as the other classes.
PVP 1v1: Werewolf is a lot stronger.
PVP Group v Group: Werewolf would be taken in consideration, will be not overpowered just comparable with other classes.
The Oakensoul Ring on an Werewolf would make it stronger in PVP 1v1 but Werewolf would still underperforming in PVE DPS and Tank and PVP Group v Group.
Edited by Gegen on April 27, 2022 9:33AM7 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gegen I've made a werewoof build with 50k HP that heals more in one GCD than 15 seconds of radiating regens. PvP werewolfs are indestructible if you know what you are doing.
It is not true that WW doesn't bring anything to the groupfight, WW can easily reapply minor+major defile in AoE, easily stun+breach+minor main everyone in AoE, as well as giving minor courage, as well as dotting everyrhing around.
If werewoof is underperforming (which it is), then it needs to be buffed.
True, it was broken with unique buff to armor, but giving it non-unique buff just killed it.
I don't understand why WW doesn't have any raw HP bonuses on it, when it's main heal is HP-based. It would make tank setup of WW less required.
Also Hircine's Rage morph can use WD+Pools to heal instead of HP.
But, I don't think that just giving broken item that have no downside on WW specifically is a good idea.
Especially when it gives all the stats WW needed to gather from other sets to be competitive: HP, armor, recoveries.
You can now slot any 2 other sets while having the same 50k with armor cap.
The mythic has downside of cutting bar size in half. It should cut WW bar size too.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not about "how many currently is using ww" it's about how many will - it's a few clicks with armory and boom, I am WW using Oakensoul, while for PvE I can be vampire.
Using it in current state on WW is far from "gimping yourself".Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge4 -
Silversmith✭✭✭Long story short. Even with the ring, werewolves will underperform compared to other classes that will 1 bar with an optimized group. Other people say otherwise as a click bait to get you to see their video on youtube or website to boost their analytics.8
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Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silversmith wrote: »Long story short. Even with the ring, werewolves will underperform compared to other classes that will 1 bar with an optimized group. Other people say otherwise as a click bait to get you to see their video on youtube or website to boost their analytics.
And your opinion is based on?Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
Silversmith✭✭✭Silversmith wrote: »Long story short. Even with the ring, werewolves will underperform compared to other classes that will 1 bar with an optimized group. Other people say otherwise as a click bait to get you to see their video on youtube or website to boost their analytics.
And your opinion is based on?
Math, playing the game, and looking at what people complain about.
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seeing a lot of "WW is bad or average, so it's perfectly fine that these over the top stats are given to us, despite having no real draw back because we already have our kit balanced with 1 bar in mind." Whether or not WW is bad or good is up for discussion, but 1 mythic shouldn't make or break your sub class. Buffs or nerfs can happen directly to your kit instead of relying on 1 gear slot.
A WW on live right now can choose to have the great stat density that Gaze of Sithis offers if they choose to have 0 block mitigation. Perfect, cause and effect. Give and take. Sithis is juiced up too, but it's negative side balances that out.
What do you give up running this ring on a non WW build? Quite a lot, a back bar enchant, a 2 piece, skills that aren't built to give 7 different buffs/debuffs on 1 bar already (WW).
What do you give up running this ring on a WW? Nothing, certainly not a monster set like you do with Gaze of Sithis, certainly not a back bar.
Why would you ever use any other mythic in the game? You won't. Even the made for transformation mythic, Shapeshifter's Chain, which is basically a WW only mythic as Vamp/Necro's wouldn't care about the ult cost reduction is leagues worse than this. Transformation cost reduction is pretty pointless when you can easily stay in WW form indefinitely, entire BG matches through life, death and respawn timers can be played in WW form.
I'm willing to bet this mythic is probably 4 to 5 times stronger than Gaze of Sithis in terms of stat density value and Gaze of Sithis is already 3 times stronger than it should be if it didn't have the negative side to it. If it launched in this state, you would never run any other mythic again on a WW.
As OP put it. Shifting the unamed stats on this mythic to some named bonuses will resolve a lot of the problems here. I don't believe all of it should be named, nor do I think the current values are in a good place and should be brought down a peg, but a good portion like armor and crit chance in favour of Ward/Savagery would go a long way. This will fix the problem on its own because 1 bar non WW builds have trouble getting these named buffs with the limited bar space. WW skills already get these things passively, so they would naturally get less benefits out of it.Edited by MashmalloMan on April 28, 2022 2:57AMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit6 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silversmith wrote: »Silversmith wrote: »Long story short. Even with the ring, werewolves will underperform compared to other classes that will 1 bar with an optimized group. Other people say otherwise as a click bait to get you to see their video on youtube or website to boost their analytics.
And your opinion is based on?
Math, playing the game, and looking at what people complain about.
Then show me that math but not those DPS stats from CM, show me the math behind PvP as this is the place where Oakensoul will affect the balance most.
"Playing the game" is very subjective, because I can be bad at playing WW and you can be amazing in this matter so this point isn't something we can compare easily. I am playing the game to, and TBH from my experience you can find both terrible and outstanding WWs.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
Silversmith✭✭✭Silversmith wrote: »Silversmith wrote: »Long story short. Even with the ring, werewolves will underperform compared to other classes that will 1 bar with an optimized group. Other people say otherwise as a click bait to get you to see their video on youtube or website to boost their analytics.
And your opinion is based on?
Math, playing the game, and looking at what people complain about.
Then show me that math but not those DPS stats from CM, show me the math behind PvP as this is the place where Oakensoul will affect the balance most.
"Playing the game" is very subjective, because I can be bad at playing WW and you can be amazing in this matter so this point isn't something we can compare easily. I am playing the game to, and TBH from my experience you can find both terrible and outstanding WWs.
There is no value to be gained from showing the math publicly.
There is no amazing WW.
There is only free AP to annoying.
The best users of this ring will be MagDK/MagPlar/MagCro in an organized group.2 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Silversmith wrote: »There is no value to be gained from showing the math publicly.
Tell me you didn't actually do any math without telling me you didn't actually do any math.
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Silversmith✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »Silversmith wrote: »There is no value to be gained from showing the math publicly.
Tell me you didn't actually do any math without telling me you didn't actually do any math.
Tell me you can't do math and rely on others for your builds without telling me you can't actually do any math or make your own builds.0 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭It would ruin the item because everyone already have named buffs anyway.
That's what I've said before. Potentially interesting item that can create dozens of new ways to play the game would be ruined to the ground and left in the overnerfed garbage heap just because WW interaction.
It should either be disabled for WW, or deliberately described what would happen in WW case: limit number of skills on the bar to 3.
I think that is the point. In its current form it is too OP.
By only giving you the major buffs, it actually helps in that you dont need to back bar those, but it doesnt make it ridiculous in that you can't stack those and massive offensive stats as well1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm glad that someone called out the clear application of this mythic to organized group play. Raid bombers don't need much more than a single bar when they're being supported with nearly everything else from other players. Some luxury bar spots will get left off but that's a tiny price to pay in exchange for this item's current power.
I don't usually call for pre-emptive nerfs of items but this item's stat density is simply too ridiculous to go live.2