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Retrospective, from a tank's perspective - kind of a rant.

drsalvation
drsalvation
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PvP oriented games with roles usually have things that make each role fun and engaging. It seems to me that ESO doesn't know what it wants to do. I think PvP and PvE should have their own sets of mechanics, or maybe even split up into different games if need-be. But this isn't much about PvP anyway...

I'm always tank/support in any co-op game that allows builds like those, it never feels right for me to play a damage dealing build. Always tank.
There was a time when I thought I was pretty good at tanking and had an awesome tank build in ESO (when I was first starting and made it to veteran rank 1, way long before champion points were a thing), until one day I went to PvP and got nuked by some rando. For the player who killed me, that moment for him meant nothing than just killing some casual PvE'er... but for me... it meant playing the next 5 years being insecure that I suck at tanking, because if one single player could nuke me just like that, then my build is definitely not good, so I never played dungeons, let alone trials for 5 years. I missed out on so much content of the game just because A) I didn't feel I was ready to take on it, and more importantly B) The game really panders to damage dealing builds.
To compliment those two points, when I wanted to try my luck again, I made the terrible choice of attempting vateshran arena as a tank. I thought I was doing well as a tank, and honestly, I was, but as I mentioned, the game panders to damage dealing builds, so I'd get punished for failing a DPS check, and not knowing I wasn't supposed to play as tank, but instead completely change my build to something more hybrid, I still thought my tank build was [snip] because I'd get one-shot no matter how much defense I'd buff up. Which sucks because vateshran is just as equally challenging for tanks as it is for damage/hybrid builds (damage builds have to clear the adds and deal splash damage to the boss, tanks will never clear the adds so they have to focus on the boss while taking a beating from adds, there was absolutely NO REASON to punish tanks for failing at damage when they're already struggling with a different type of challenge).
So yeah, that meant I remained insecure about my tank builds and kept avoiding any sort of content and just limited myself to anything I could finish with my brother.

Then I started taking on normal vanilla dungeons, 5 years too late, I could've piled up on all that gear if that random player in PvP hadn't simply nuked me. When I decided to git gud and looked up guides and builds, I was highly disappointed to realize that the game was meant for you to do a damage build to enjoy 100% of it (all dungeons, trials, pvp, solo arenas), and when they introduced armory, the truth became even clearer: make a support build for a specific purpose, then switch back to damage to enjoy the rest of the game.
So imagine wasting 5 years thinking I wasn't good enough on a build that wasn't meant to be a 'viable' role for the entire game.
The reason why I say the game panders to damage builds is because no matter how awesome my tank build is, I will still get one-shot regardless of what I do because of mechanics and that a 'mediocre' tank would be just as good as long as they know the mechanics and they focus buffing up the damage dealers instead. (I use mediocre in the sense that as long as you know mechanics, there's no real reason to make a min/max tank build... a min/max DPS will always be better than a normal DPS, but a min/max tank can perform just as equally as a mediocre tank)
You already sacrifice so much of your other stats, especially recovery when playing as a tank, and while DPS has a reason to improve their builds to get the most out of their damage, there's no reason to do the same with a tank, so you can either A) Have an awesome tank build that still gets one-shot and nuked in PvP, or B ) Have a mediocre tank that still gets one-shot and nuked in PvP but with like 200 more damage and recovery.

Every update, it makes playing as tanks less and less enticing, the achievement is called "It's a tankless job" because for all the stuff that tanks have to go through, there's still nothing to motivate tanks to keep tanking. There's nothing in this game that makes tanking any fun, but there's an awful lot of pressure to memorize all dungeon and trials mechanics, in PvP you get points for dealing damage, you get points for healing, but there's nothing that requires tanks to do anything, objectives in battlegrounds are ignored because all people want to do is kill players so objectives are just extra steps, and even so, tanking is not required (but if you somehow manage to be a good tank for PvP, you'll get all the youtubers complain that PvP is not fun because they can't kill you in 3 seconds, yes, the real godzilla still complains about it).
Anything that makes tanking fun has to be taken away on every update, I made a thread about power slam, so I'll give the small version here: Power slam could've been a tank skill, tanks are the ones who have to block all the damage, a tank could've taunted, blocked, and then release a massive burst that scales with their health or defense. But no, we couldn't have that, instead now it just gives a 33% buff by blocking ONCE because a DPS/DD doesn't have to block as often, not only that, but the damage done is going to be a CP active perk now, the skill just grants 50% cost reduction for blocking once. So yeah, what could've been fun for tanks is now just (as always) pandering for damage builds.
AoE taunts? Nothing that a tank can do as an expensive skill, instead we have to sacrifice one of our sets (Tormentor allows for AoE taunts). So why do we have to find loopholes to do something that "breaks the game's philosophy"?
PvP taunts? There are only 2 taunt skills, one of them breaks armor, that's about it, you obviously can't force players to attack you, but there IS a set that 'taunts' players (vanguard's challenge) which reduces their damage done by 35% but increases your damage taken by 35% so the player has to kill you first to regain their full damage, so why do we need to sacrifice a whole set just for that? Couldn't we natively taunt players by using 10% instead of 35% (and the armor set would just amplify the effects)?

Giving a tank something to have fun with won't break the game, why sacrifice so much fun aspects of the game for the sake of "balance"?

I sometimes wonder what is it that this game has that has kept me playing ever since it released on consoles... maybe I stuck around because of the potential it has to be an actual fun game, instead, it throws away everything that could've been fun for the sake of balance, and yet it remains unbalanced as heck but without the fun. The crossbow used to pull you to enemies and you could use that to move across cliffs with ease, it was fun, now you can't do that with the crossbow (but you can still do it with sword and shield using shield charge, which is less immersive in my opinion). 2H's spammable used to knock back enemies, now it just stuns them, but you can still knock them back with the templar spear or bow, AND do it from the safety of long range, but you can't knock back NPCs off bridges into the water anymore. It would make sense if the fight was actually hard, but it's overland content, it means you're forced to kill the enemy from start to finish, it no longer rewards you with a quick lootless fight by using the environment to your advantage and what for? If it was a hard fight, it would make sense because it would prevent you from cheesing your way out of a challenge, but it's a generic NPC that will die before they can even reach you anyway. So again, why do we need to sacrifice all that fun, or why even remove the capacity to do any sort of damage as a tank when they're still the types of builds that aren't viable for PvP? It's not like a tank dealing 20k burst dmg every 5 seconds will break PvE dungeons.

Everyone keeps saying that a tank should buff up the team so that they can deal more damage and finish quicker, but how is it any different if the extra damage comes from the tank, and not from the buffs the tank gives the team? At least that way there would be better reasons to make tank builds that are fun AND still play with the same build outside of the dungeon instead of immediately ditching it and switching to DD.
That's why nobody wants to play tanks, and despite armory allowing you to quickly switch builds, there's still fake tanks in PUGs. There's nothing fun about tanking, there's nothing rewarding for min/max'ing a tank build, you'll still get one-shot, mist form was also nerfed to PvP only because whatever creative approach for a PvE challenge was removed.

Ever since overland was nerfed in tamriel one, and other than PvP, what's there to "balance"?

[edited for profanity bypass]
Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2022 4:18PM
  • Sarannah
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    Totally agree with you! PvE tanks are practically nerfed every patch, due to tanks in PvP. ZOS should separate PvE tanking from PvP tanking, or maybe add a third PvE only option to tanking skills. Skills which would automatically disable in PvP areas. Due to all the nerfs, my tanks feel to be at about 60% strenght versus how strong they started out.

    Another thing I agree with in your post, is that one-shot mechanics totally void tanking. I could avoid a one-shot with 1 hp, or with 50k hp, it does no longer matter. This makes normal, veteran and hm all the same tanking-wise. This is also the main cause of fake tanks, they do not need to be tanky at all. Personally I would love to see mobs in all dungeons get a huge damage increase and some smaller groups(even normals), so tanks can/need to control the situation. That would stop fake tanks, as they would actually be able to take damage.

    The most recent nerf that hurt me most, was the hatchling's shell's gearset nerf. I made my tanks with high health, and relied on that 15 sec damage shield. Due to performance changes, ZOS changed this set to getting a set damage shield for 6 secs when hit, which means every time a boss starts a white heavy attack, my damage shield most of the time disables. As the time the boss takes to charge their white attack, causes the 6 seconds on the shield to usually run out. I'm actually fine with the set damage shield amount, but ZOS should adjust this set as it runs out when I need it most. On boss white attacks.

    When I started tanking, I also was afraid to fail. I made sure to fully gear up, had all my skills leveled to the maximum, and made sure my build was as a whole good. After I did that, I started tanking normal dungeons, and I felt like it was insanely easy. So than I tried veterans for the first time, and noticed no difference at all. For some reason I geared myself up for veteran(hm), without even knowing, or realizing I did that.
    The game could use a tanking guide, on what is enough for normals/veterans!

    Awesome post, goodluck in your tanking adventures!

    PS: ZOS should ban all fake roles! They are just cutting in line, and wreck quite a few groups in the process. (despite what their add-ons tell them)
    PPS: Gave you an awesome!
    PPPS: I don't run arena's at all, as I'm a terrible DPS player, and I know all of them have a DPS check.
  • FeedbackOnly
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    I agree with you. ZOS should care more about roles besides DPS this and DPS that
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    Thanks for the kind words.
    I often find myself having to switch my own perspective to keep enjoying the game, to find a different approach, as in "maybe I'm not supposed to be trying this at all" and discard that idea and switch to a whole new mind frame.
    I'm not saying this game is bad lol, it just feels like there's an awful lot of wasted potential.

    And I'm seeing it on the side of a game developer myself, I design my games to guide the players through what I want them to go through, but if they manage to find another approach, I won't deny it either. More often than not, dungeons and tank rebalancing seems like we're getting denied a lot of fun aspects of the game to force us to play in a very specific manner, I can understand it if it was causing loading issues, like maybe using the crossbow to pull yourself to a location which might've skipped a loading trigger or something, but before that, climbing mountains was fun, made us put attention to the environment and try to control the area a little better for the sake of fun solutions without necessarily braking anything.

    I saw a thread about AoE taunts recently, a lot of people claimed it would never be a skill for A) Balance, B) It's within the tanking philosophy that a tank should know what mobs to control, C) It would make things easier if it was included.
    The problem is that it already IS included, it requires some workarounds, sacrificing some gear sets, but it's there, people use it, having it changes nothing, so why deny us of it?
    More importantly, with armor sets casting skills for us free of cost, why do they keep denying us new class/skill trees for the sake of "balance" but keep introducing armor sets that cast those skills?
    I mean, Dark Convergence pre-nerf would've been an awesome ultimate skill for a new skill tree, or even a race ultimate that only dark elves could cast, costing around 300 ult, there would be NO NEED to nerf it down, as now only a small portion of players could do it without spamming it every 15 seconds.
    It's so much easier to do skill trees and motivate us to finish quests and hunt for skyshards to keep using our skill points on new skills rather than just equipping armor and have the game play itself for us.

    But that was a different type of rant lol.
    In the end, everything fun gets nerfed and tossed aside for the sake of "balance" but we still ended up with an unbalanced mess that isn't nearly as fun as it used to be.
  • Succuby
    Succuby
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    Tank do not tell it is immortal.

    Lesser damage in/out.

    In pvp hots are too OP now. And it must not stuck as major buffs/debaffs - it is to OP to have 10 mutagens and vigors the same time.

    In pvp builds and sets/skills can be prevented by CP system - OLD CP was good in it + you have battle spirit.

    It is not understandable why game got so hardly damage by unundertandable changes

    And yes, do not think ZOS knows what they plan or doing.

    Changes looks like some unpredictable random actions for last 2 years !

    Players have to get more understandable and clear picture what is going on ! A lot of players want stability !!!
  • kevkj
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    You can definitely find some utility as a tank in Cyrodiil especially in siege situations and there are players who play the role of unkillable zerg magnet quite well.
  • drsalvation
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    kevkj wrote: »
    You can definitely find some utility as a tank in Cyrodiil especially in siege situations and there are players who play the role of unkillable zerg magnet quite well.

    There's no scoring for that. A tank could protect the flag, that would be ideal, and defense buffs should increase based on defense or max health, otherwise, any DD or healer can cast same protective runes and still get the same % of dmg reduction as if a tank had casted it.
    Imagine scoring a tank for holding the flag's position preventing it from being taken.
    There IS a score, it's just not related to tanking it, in the end, it's more optimal to have a dedicated group of DD's to wipe out the enemy than it is to have a tank defending the flag considering there's no way a tank can kill other players unless they steal it from a DD's hard work.
  • jle30303
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    Part of the problem in PVP is the huge discrepancy between player health and boss monster health.

    Boss monsters have literally tens of millions of health, so DPS players have to be able to gear up to take *that* down.

    Players have... tens of thousands.

    But, of course, PVP players move around much faster, are much harder to actually hit, don't stay in AOEs, have ways of purging negative effects and DOTs... so even a "tank PVP" build is completely different from a "tank PVE" build. As well as DPS-PVP being more reliant on heavy bursts of damage and sustaining / restoring / escaping in between, whereas DPS-PVE is more about the constant output.
  • kevkj
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    kevkj wrote: »
    You can definitely find some utility as a tank in Cyrodiil especially in siege situations and there are players who play the role of unkillable zerg magnet quite well.

    There's no scoring for that. A tank could protect the flag, that would be ideal, and defense buffs should increase based on defense or max health, otherwise, any DD or healer can cast same protective runes and still get the same % of dmg reduction as if a tank had casted it.
    Imagine scoring a tank for holding the flag's position preventing it from being taken.
    There IS a score, it's just not related to tanking it, in the end, it's more optimal to have a dedicated group of DD's to wipe out the enemy than it is to have a tank defending the flag considering there's no way a tank can kill other players unless they steal it from a DD's hard work.

    You also gain AP for assists so while not purely a reward for tanking it's not like you don't get anything.

    Going back to your original post:
    You already sacrifice so much of your other stats, especially recovery when playing as a tank, and while DPS has a reason to improve their builds to get the most out of their damage, there's no reason to do the same with a tank, so you can either A) Have an awesome tank build that still gets one-shot and nuked in PvP, or B ) Have a mediocre tank that still gets one-shot and nuked in PvP but with like 200 more damage and recovery.

    It might be more helpful to realize that half the players in cyrodiil are "tanks". So the real build options for tanks are A)have a tank build that can permablock indefinitely but can't do damage or B ) have a bruiser type build that can either outlast or outburst opponents.
    Edited by kevkj on April 27, 2022 7:27PM
  • FeedbackOnly
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    Okay to be fair, I often guard relic as a PvE tank just fine on battlegrounds. Also pull running enemies to allies to kill is a real joy. Can cc them too.
  • Artim_X
    Artim_X
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    In most scenarios, what works in PvE will not work in PvP and vice versa. A player will not act like an NPC when they engage with you. There are a lot of skills and sets that counter different builds.

    For instance, the two-handed ultimate Onslaught: "This attack ignores the target's Resistance and grants you Physical and Spell Penetration for your Direct Damage attacks equal to 100% of the amount ignored from the initial target for 5 seconds."

    Also, the dragonknight ultimate Corrosive Armor: "Oxidize the green Dragon blood in your veins, limiting incoming damage to 3% of your Max Health and dealing 347 Poison Damage to nearby enemies each second for 10 seconds. While active, this ability and your Direct Damage dealt ignores enemy Physical and Spell Resistance."

    If you get hit by one of the two ultimates and are not prepared to counter (break free, dodging, using stuns, big heals etc.) You might as well be naked.

    If you don't build for crit resistance, then a high crit build with decent penetration can also ruin your day.

    In regards to PvE, one-shot mechanics are definitely annoying, but in most pug groups on vet an experienced tank that can take a hit is a godsend.
    (AD) Artim X/Xirtām/Måtrix |PC/NA| Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer/templar/arcanist
    Electric-Stun
    https://media.giphy.com/media/Av0zcKH3i2BkaY1GXW/giphy.gif/https://c.tenor.com/jQHdFftrgwMAAAAC/tenor.gif
    • Roleplay Damage Dealing Build.
    • Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Kinras's jewelry (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
    • Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Lightning Flood, Shocking Soul (Shock damage, Class Mastery Signature Script, and Empower), and Power Overload.
    • Ability-Bar 2: Storm Pulsar, Streak, Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, Shocking Burst (Shock Damage, remove 1 negative effect, and interrupt) and Thunderous Rage.
      Solo: Use Kinras's chest, replace Mora with Ring of the Pale Order, and use a heavy Slimcraw piece for max critical.
    Electric-Pets
    https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHVjemwxZHI2ZmQ2bTg1ZG0xOTZ3b2QwajBzNGxmaHh6OXRpN3p6YSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/eBgWizk5dmZRS/giphy.gif
    • Stress free one bar pet build .
    • Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants. No chest piece), 1 medium Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, medium, Max Mag Enchants), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant ring and necklace (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant), Oakensoul ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)
    • Ability-Bar: Daedric Prey, Summon Volatile Familiar, Bound Armaments, Unstable Wall of Storms, Summon Twilight Matriarch, and Greater storm Atronach.
    Electric-Heal
    https://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gif
    • My Healer Build.
    • Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (Charged/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (Powered with absorb magicka enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
    • Ability-Bar 1: Power Surge, Boundless Storm, Blessing of Restoration, Energy Orb, Twilight Matriarch, and Replenishing Barrier.
    • Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Blockade of Storms, Twilight Matriarch, and Aggressive Horn.
    Electric-Ward
    https://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gif
    • My Meme Tank Build that uses high resistance and variety of wards.
    • Gear: 5 Brands of Imperium (All body pieces except Head and Shoulders, with Divine trait, and with Prismatic Defense Enchants), full Iceheart (1 light and 1 medium. Divines and Prismatic Enchant), and Combat Physician jewelry (bloodthirsty with Prismatic Recovery Enchants), Combat Physician restoration staff (Infused with hardening enchant), and combat physician ice staff (Infused with crusher enchant).
    • Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Deep Thoughts, Boundless Storm, Healing Ward, and Replenishing Barrier.
    • Ability-Bar 2: Silver Leash (Elemental Drain if healer isn't running it), Bound Aegis, Frost Clench, Blockade of Frost, Empowered Ward, and Temporal Guard.
    Electric-Vamp
    https://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gif
    • Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
    • Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (medium chest and body pieces light. All Impenetrable with Prismatic Enchants). Gaze of Sithis and 1 light Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton (light shoulders, and impenetrable with Prismtaic Enchants). Knight Slayer (Swift with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant).
    • Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Boundless Storm, Soul Splitting Trap, Radiating Regeneration, Healing Ward, and Life Giver.
    • Ability-Bar 2: Drain Vigor (Elemental Susceptibility), Race Against Time, Rune Cage, Radiant Magelight, Regenerative Ward, and Shatter Soul.
    Dawnfang
    https://media.tenor.com/ogWfvDdsqBIAAAAd/anime-black-clover.gif
    • My casual one bar heavy attack Templar build that primarily utilizes Aedric Spear abilities.
    • Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
    • Ability-Bar 1: Puncturing Sweep, Aurora Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, Radiant Ward/Breath of life, and Crescent Sweep.
    Duskfang
    https://media.tenor.com/Jo8aG_ouy_oAAAAd/ac-odyssey.gif
    • Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
    • Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
    • Ability-Bar 1: Radiant Oppression, Race Against Time, Aurora Javelin, Breath of Life, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
    Eye of the Queen
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/44/1c/fd441c8242af6ec35ada94496feb0901.gif
    • My casual one bar heavy attack Arcanist build that primarily utilizes Herald of the Tome abilities.
    • Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
    • Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Pragmatic Fatecarver, Cephaliarch's Flail, Rune of Displacement, Inspired Scholarship/Evolving Runemend, and The Languid Eye.
    Eye of the King
    https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOTAzdjV1eTgwbDFmM3lrZmxuMXRqdDR3Y3h1ZDRpajR0M3VjZzQ3NSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/zXmbOaTpbY6mA/giphy.gif
    • Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
    • Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
    • Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Race Against Time, Rune of Uncanny Adoration, Evolving Runemend, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
    PvE Starter Gear
    https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gif
    • Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap.
    • Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
    Race
    https://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gif
    • High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
    Mundus Stones
    https://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gif
    • PvP: The Steed for speed. Gotta go fast!
    • PvE Healing/Damage: The Thief for decent crit rate.
    • PvE Tanking: The Lady to get close to resistance cap.
    Current Champion Points
    https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGDAx6u3hthMhgI/giphy.gif
    • DPS: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Exploiter, Weapons Expert, Fighting Finesse, Master-at-Arms, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
    • Healer Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Hope Infusion, Weapon's Expert, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
    • Tanky Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Ironclad, Enduring Resolve, Reinforced, Duelist's Rebuff, Bastion, Ward Master, Rejuvenation, Fortified.
    • PvP Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, Occult Overload, Arcane Supremacy, Bastion, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
    • PvP Temp/Arcanist: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, From the Brink, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
    Favorite Foods and Potions
    https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif
    • Parse Food for PvE:(DPS) Ghastly Eye Bowl (increases Max Magicka by 4592 and Magicka Recovery by 459 for 2 hours).
    • Gold/Purple Food for Sorc PvP and Meme Tanking:(PvP) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours). Witchmother's Potent Brew (Increase Max Magicka by 2856, Max Health by 3094, and Magicka Recovery by 315 for 2 hours.
    • Trash Potions when feeling cheap: Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
    • Crafted Potions: Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy on my Sorc, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). My templar/arcanist will mostly use Essence of Health (Tri-Stat Potion) Ingredients: (Mountain Flower, Columbine, and Bugloss).
  • Gundug
    Gundug
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    I have nearly always used regular PVE tanks when playing in Cyrodiil, and I have never run into anyone who could one shot me. Quite the opposite, and playing as a support who messes with enemy players and actively looks to pull them out of their comfort zone is helpful to the team. I also disagree that a tank cannot score well in PVP. When I was helping a friend in their emperor bid at the start of a campaign, I would run around being annoying to enemy players while my friend was doing the grindy things they needed to gain points, and I was consistently near or ahead of them in scoring.
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    I still think some people are missing the point, it's not really about PvP, to be fair, PvP needs a lot of work based on what hardcore PvP'ers keep saying, it's not really my cup of tea, and I'm not asking PvP to be PvE friendly (I just meant it in a sense that I was not prepared to have my insecurities be brought up by a PvP match).

    @Gundug that's fair, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen tho, I have video evidence where the ONLY reason I survived the burst was because the enemy player attacked another player, and it gave me 3 seconds to break free and spam my scion ult which recovered my full HP, had I been alone, there would've been absolutely no chance I'd be able to survive that sneaky burst with my tank. I don't think I can share it because of player names (And I was on PvE tank because I was exploring IC sewers for boss events)
    But again, this is not about PvP, the whole PvP thing I mentioned was just a story about how I became scared to tank because I didn't want to let my teammates down not knowing I was fully prepared, it was back in the day when many of us thought PvP was endgame content and not its own thing, I've been more survivable in PvP with my DD build where I have better HoTs and WAY better sustain.

    This post is meant mostly as how the game seeks to "balance" things out by taking away things that are fun, by making support roles stale and boring.
    If I make a PvE tank, I'd like to be able to play with the same build through the rest of the game (well, PvP excluded) and have fun. Any mechanic that could make tanks fun have been completely altered to pander for DD roles, as I stated before, power slam should've been a tank's burst skill, block all you need to accumulate stacks of resentment and then burst it, based on health, now it's just a generic spammable for DD's who don't even need to block as often as a tank (I'm not saying DD's don't block, I'm saying it's something that would fit a tank way more who has aggro on boss, than it does to a DD who is flanking the boss and not needing to block).

    Most of those changes, again, were made to "balance" but in the end, we still end up with an unbalanced mess that isn't as fun anymore. It feels like there's no consideration to make support roles any more fun, considering we can just switch to DD with armory to enjoy the rest of the game,
    I still see no reasons why Tanks get punished for failing a DPS check on Vateshran when that arena, just the way it is, is already a challenging arena for both tanks and DD's in their own way, where a DD focuses on killing adds to avoid as much damage as possible, and tanks focus on boss because they'll never clear the arena from adds, so they need to survive the hoards of adds while killing the boss.

    I mean, look at the reason why mist form is no longer a PvE skill. Instead of designing a game that works around your skills, they force our play style to be adapted to play the game as they intended, and not as we want.
    And the more updates that come, it's more obvious that tanks are just meant to be the towel holders for DD's
  • FeedbackOnly
    FeedbackOnly
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    I think tanks do get shorted more often than other roles. Some content should be build for healers and tanks too
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    i started out playing a tank, but i never expected to be the same invulnerable tank in pvp than pve

    this is why i made different toons, to enjoy different aspects of the game

    however, tanking difficult pve content does require a certain skill, and is still needed because not enough people are willing to fill support roles so in a lot of cases the same people who are willing are the ones who end up getting stuck tanking instead of trying other roles

    ive been fortunate enough to play with groups of people who have different toons to do different roles, so ive had the ability to tank or dps or heal when i feel like it

    vateshran definitely isnt meant for heavy tanks, nor is maelstrom (only due to the ice stage), but vDSA and vBRP still need a tank

    i personally like to play a tank that can still decent dmg, i do not believe a tank should have to be a buff bot for the group and contributing 2k dps (which makes soloing a slog)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
  • Opalblade
    Opalblade
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    The main reason I don't tank dungeons much in ESO, despite loving to tank in a lot of other MMOs, is because so many DPS players here expect tanks to sacrifice just about anything fun in their builds to become nothing but boring, helpless buffbots. I play games to have fun. Where's the fun in playing a build that can't even complete easy open world content without help?
  • Gundug
    Gundug
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    I understand the frustration with being unable to send a pure tank into, honestly, most content in this game and have very much fun, or success. The thing to keep in mind is that pure tank, healer and damage dealer are all group roles designed to maximize one capability at the expense of all the others. A solo setup is a completely different role, with the balance of durability, damage, healing and buffing/debuffing being up to that particular player. Going all into durability means damage and sustain suffer. All into damage means survivability suffers. Build for what you are trying to clear.
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    Gundug wrote: »
    I understand the frustration with being unable to send a pure tank into, honestly, most content in this game and have very much fun, or success. The thing to keep in mind is that pure tank, healer and damage dealer are all group roles designed to maximize one capability at the expense of all the others. A solo setup is a completely different role, with the balance of durability, damage, healing and buffing/debuffing being up to that particular player. Going all into durability means damage and sustain suffer. All into damage means survivability suffers. Build for what you are trying to clear.

    Yeah, I get that there are roles that sacrifice one bit to compliment the team's lacking bits, that's ok, but as I mentioned, there's no reason to do any of that "optimization" with tanks, since a mediocre build by definition can perform just as well as a "good" build, considering all DPS, healers, and tanks will get one-shot regardless of what their build does if they don't follow mechanics. A tank already sacrifices so much speed, sprinting just to keep up with team mates who are impatiently waiting to jump on the boss only for me being unable to even taunt because when I get there my stam is depleted and I have no sustain whatsoever unless I chug a potion is already a good indicator of how poorly "balanced" and already lacking in any fun compromises tanks are in this game. I'd be ok with sacrificing all of that if there were any fun aspects that enticed me to keep doing that role, there's even an achievement called "It's a tankless job" because obviously there's little to no gratification with being a tank, devs are aware, and they still don't plan on making tanking any fun.

    Again, I don't expect tanks to deal 40k dps, but as I said, there's no stats that increase the defense buffs you get other than damage shields, but any player can cast runes of protection and they all get the same defense regardless of who casted it, so it's easy for a DPS player to say to "just switch some skills for different activities" but in reality, it doesn't work like that when having a tank build, I don't mind switching damage skills to go full-on tank, that's perfectly fine with a well-coordinated group, but there's no reason why I have to switch my entire build just to enjoy the rest of the game.
    I'll keep bringing this up over and over again, power slam could've been a fun tank skill, where you block all damage and then you do a burst based on how much you blocked. Tanks are the ones who do all the heavy blocking, but now that skill is pandering to DD's who barely need to block, now you just block once for 33% extra dmg, the dmg of that skill is based on your weapon damage, it should've been on your health or armor, but ok, not only that, in the upcoming patch, that skill just provides a skill cost reduction, instead there's a CP which grants you a damage buff when you block regardless of what weapons you have, so not only did they took that potentially fun mechanic from tanks away, they took it away from sword and shield skill tree as well.

    So if a tank with 38k hp and mediocre defense can cast defensive runes for the team and protect them just as good as a tank with 52k hp, then what's the point of optimizing a good tank if all you're gonna do is gimp yourself out of all the fun in the rest of the game? (Banished cells II is a good example of a tank check when you're playing with a group with low DPS, and you have to keep all the daedroth away from the team. No insta-kill mechanics, but still challenging as hell for tanks, promoting them to optimize an all-defense build for long term survivability. Vateshran does exactly the same, it's a fun dungeon, the one-shot kill mechanic just ruins the whole thing, it could've easily been a burst that COULD be neglected by tanks, but DPS couldn't so the DPS check is still there)

    TL;DR
    There's nothing enticing about playing as tanks, there's nothing that feels rewarding and nothing that challenges a good build, if there is, it's ruined by DPS checks because this game keeps pandering for DD's. All possible fun mechanics for tanks are being thrown away and changed to pander to DPS instead.
    -And yes, I have a DD build which is fun in its own way, and yes, I switch to tank via armory when doing dungeons, but the armory for quick build change only means that they have no plans to making tanks actually fun, and instead support roles are just there for a quick activity, then you switch back to the only role the devs are focusing on, which is DD.
  • Arthtur
    Arthtur
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    And somehow i love tanking. I guess im just wierd. Or maybe i play with ppl who listen to me and dont make my work harder.
    PC/EU @Arthtur

    Toxic Tank for the win :x
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    Arthtur wrote: »
    And somehow i love tanking. I guess im just wierd. Or maybe i play with ppl who listen to me and dont make my work harder.

    I still tank, I always do, it's just not the best in this game.
    The thing is, you play as a DD, you can keep your build (maybe just swap skills) to enjoy the full game, on the other hand, if you play tank, you'd have to switch out your whole build to do the other activities in the game.
    It's simply not a viable play style.
  • Iron_Warrior
    Iron_Warrior
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    Great post op, tanking for me is the best and worst thing in this game. Doing a hard content that keeps you on your toes with a decent group is sooo fun, you feel like the star of the show and it feels good to help your dds deal more dps with your buffs and debuffs. For me tanking is a lot more fun than being a dd in these situations.

    But with a bad group you are just "helpless". No matter how much you buff your group. When dds are just light attacking and have 10k dps. You can't magically buff that 10k to 50k, with all your buff sets you can turn that to 12k at best which is still horrible, that's when the feeling of helplessness kicks in.

    And let's not forget about the tank nerfs. The removal of soft taunts made tanking the add pulls feel horrible. I just want to know why?? Who asked for this? Does anybody in the dev team actually plays as a tank?
  • renne
    renne
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    If there are one shot mechanics that are killing you, it might just be that it's a one shot mechanic that will kill you and instead of just standing there and taking it "because you're a tank" you have to actively avoid it.

    You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block.
  • kojou
    kojou
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    For the most part I like tanking in this game...

    Yes one shot mechanics are annoying when they are not well telegraphed.

    Yes changes to balance PvP tend to disproportionately affect PvE tanks (things that help you survive one help you survive the other).

    But tanking at a high level (DLC Hard Modes) and Trials is actually a lot of fun in some cases. Most one shots are fairly easy to see coming and there are add-ons that help with some of the more annoying ones that you can't see.
    Playing since beta...
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    renne wrote: »
    If there are one shot mechanics that are killing you, it might just be that it's a one shot mechanic that will kill you and instead of just standing there and taking it "because you're a tank" you have to actively avoid it.

    You can't just stand there, hold block and expect never to die ever just because you're holding block.

    Of course... so what's the mechanic I have to do to avoid getting one-shot in Vateshran? What's the pillar I'm supposed to hide behind when the ring of ghosts start closing in? How many times does the damage buff sigil spawn in that battle to help me pass the DPS check to avoid getting one-shot? Why do tanks have to get so nerfed in terms of mobility speed when mechanics would require you to quickly position yourself on a place to avoid getting one-shot?

    I mean, it's fair, and possible to avoid most one-shots, you assume I have no idea how to tank, but I'll dismiss that for the sake of the argument and not taking it personal.
    I'm not expecting I can just block and do nothing and get out of one-shot mechanics with 100% health, there's a trial (I ran it on normal, I still don't believe I'm good enough to do vet), NCR I think, where you go down and face some spectral slugs, and then the whole floor turns red and you have to teleport to a balcony. I like this because DD's and Healers will DEFINITELY die.
    A tank CAN survive it (but of course, it's going to be devastating) as long as they have HotS, protection runes, and an awful lot of resistance, plus blocking. It hits hard, and puts me in immediate danger and that's when the healer can save my dying arse. OR I could also teleport and avoid everyone the pain. It's devastating, but a good tank build can survive it, a good tank can be rewarded by not dying for having a great build and that can add to decision making, weather to go taunt the other dude who's chasing the DD and take the blast in the face and risk dying from taunting, or follow mechanics, let DD die and then go back to ress. That choice, while insignificant, it's still in a way an incentive to sacrifice all the other useful stats for the sake of going full-on tank. Without those choices, a hardcore tank and a mediocre one will meet the same fate, and I'd have no motivation to actually try a full-tank build.
    And without tank damage mechanics (as I mentioned on other replies, making power slam a tank skill instead of a DPS one), it's nearly impossible to make mediocre PUGs with low DPS work. After all, the damage buffs a tank can give is about 10% so a 10k dps would be buffed all the way to 11k, which isn't significant (compared to a 50kdps up to 55k), so at the very least we could have a better way to contribute to DPS the same way an insta-kill (but not a one-shot) attack can save a DPS who actually knows how to block a minotaur attack in falkreath hold.
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    kojou wrote: »
    For the most part I like tanking in this game...

    Yes one shot mechanics are annoying when they are not well telegraphed.

    Yes changes to balance PvP tend to disproportionately affect PvE tanks (things that help you survive one help you survive the other).

    But tanking at a high level (DLC Hard Modes) and Trials is actually a lot of fun in some cases. Most one shots are fairly easy to see coming and there are add-ons that help with some of the more annoying ones that you can't see.

    And I agree, there's a lot of fun things on tanking, that's why I still do tanking and have a tank build on armory, my issue is how much tanking is getting nerfed for the sake of "balance" but still end up with a mess that just takes away all the fun aspects. They seem to want to make tanks a meat shield and nothing more than that, so anything that had potential to make tanking fun is being nerfed or reworked to fit DD's instead of tanks (as I said over and over again, power slam).
    A DD can swap a few skills to benefit all sorts of content in this game, a Tank has to swap the entire build to do the same. There's no incentive to make and KEEP a tank build, and with armory, it just comes to say that there's no plans on making support roles any fun, just swap out to a DD build and move on.
  • DigiAngel
    DigiAngel
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    Run Dark Convergence as a tank...it'll give you a whole new attitude ;)
  • drsalvation
    drsalvation
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    DigiAngel wrote: »
    Run Dark Convergence as a tank...it'll give you a whole new attitude ;)

    lmao, I've run that set before, but you know what? I never tried it out as a tank lol. Might as well.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    ZoS just needs to balance PVE and PVP separately. That will fix most of the problems you guys have. Imagine, what if sets in ESO were balanced differently in PVP versus PVP? Same with skills? What if some skills had completely different abilities in PVP or in PVE than the other; there's tons of PVP skills in the game that just don't get used in PVE.

    I've said it for years. Balancing them both together has proven to be a hot mess for 8 years now. ZoS just needs to bite the bullet and do it. Not only would they have more freedom in designing things for combat if pvp and pve were balanced separately, but they'd also not actually have to balance things as often once they balance it well once. Let's just hope that the Cryodiil changes that ZoS has been touting for release next year include balancing the two game modes separately; I just wish they'd tell us what they're doing so people stop ranting in the forums about something that might be getting fixed.
  • DigiAngel
    DigiAngel
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    DigiAngel wrote: »
    Run Dark Convergence as a tank...it'll give you a whole new attitude ;)

    lmao, I've run that set before, but you know what? I never tried it out as a tank lol. Might as well.

    Nothing more satisfying then seeing my dps at around 25% of group in a dungeon :) I won't run it in PvP however...just on principal and my quest for lag reduction.
  • DigiAngel
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    Also, for the one three punch:

    1. Ice staff - unstable wall to proc DC
    2. Choking Talons to lock um in place after drawing them in
    3. Bar swap and finish off with Stone Giant for additional dps

    Painless!
  • karekiz
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    It entirely depends on the dungeon. Doing some newer ones especially on HM wouldn't be as easily smooth w/o a tank as it is made out to be on some posts. When your talking about Blackheart haven HM and the like? Than yes it doesn't matter.

    When your talking about Dread cellar / Shipwrights / even back to Depths than it gets a bit harder.
    Edited by karekiz on May 2, 2022 4:49PM
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