one only meta? is this the result of hybridization?

jecks33 · March 2022

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I find it boring, where is class identity? where is build diversity? Where are the classic fantasy roles? is really this what people want?

You contradict yourself some.You want build diversity,but ask where classic fantasy roles are,which would make limitations.All games have meta,and it's what most ppl want to feel powerful.There is build diversity,jsut won't be meta,but will still be powerful,since meta is top,and can't have 20 top meta build diversity of equal stats,or wouldn't be meta.

read better, I'm asking for class identity, that means build diversity (sorcs - lightning, dk - fire or poison, templar - magic, etc...).
I tried the new meta on my magplar equipping 2 daggers and a greatsword, caltrops and purifing light, stampede and magic jabs. Ok, I upgraded my vma score from 570k to 580k, and my vvh by 30k, but I'm still playing a magicka templar? the paladin blessed by the power of the sun? No.
The same setup and almost the same skills on my magicka warden got me the same score increase with the same playstyle as my "magplar". I'm playing the mage blessed by mother nature? No, I'm playing 12 classes with the same build and the same skills.

(ok, I could wear other sets but I wouldn't be that powerful. Guys, the 2h dmg is crazy compared to the good old vma staff...)

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2022

jecks33 wrote: »

(if you are the guy that "eeehhh don't follow the meta, play as you like, wear what you want!1!!11!" this post is NOT for you)

Content creators are releasing new parses with crazy numbers but seems like there is one only meta for every class, "mag" and "stam", dk or necro, sorc or templar... Everybody wear kinra/relequen/kilt/mael greatsword using almost the same skills. With the new tank sets even group composition is not so relevant.

I find it boring, where is class identity? where is build diversity? Where are the classic fantasy roles? is really this what people want?

Couldnt disagree more. Look, if your goal is to squeeze out every last drop of DPS, math is pretty much always going to point to one combination of sets, so yes, if parse fishing, it looks pretty similar. But the reality is that we have more variation now than we ever had in what can be considered a competitive gear combo or bar setup.

I am still getting used to the new hybrid meta, but it really does give you a lot of options. AY, Rele, Pillar, even Siroria, are all viable front bar option. Plenty of stuff you can wear on the body, and you arent bound to one based on whether you chose mag or stam. Rele might be king for single target in medium armor, but Bahsei is going to be the better option for a lot of people with more pen and more cleave.

Sure a Maelstrom Greatsword might help you squeeze an extra 1-2k on a mag DPS over a Staff, but you dont have to run one. On my mDK, I am like 110 with double staff and 112 with staff/2H (wearing Kinra and Bahsei). My Stamcro if you can call him that (really a hybrid, stacking stam and spell damage) is hitting 120 with AY front bar adn rele body, swapped to Kinra front, couldnt tell hardly any difference. The difference in most gear choices is essentially meaningless in actual content, and many times, the staff is actually ahead of 2H, or at least smoother to play. The rotation between DK and Necro is night and day different. Furthermore, does your class have room for an extra DOT? Caltrops, Degen, Rune, Carve, all are in the same ball park and you can tailor it to what you need for both the specific fight at hand, and your regen needs.

The reality is that there is a lot of flexibility, probably more than ever, to be within 1-2% of what we would call meta. My only real complaint about the current meta is that as far as I can tell, mageblade needs a healthy buff.

WrathOfInnos · March 2022

mekops_ESO wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

mekops_ESO wrote: »

There will always be a meta. And as of now, there are plenty of ways to build viably within a couple % of the metas. You can build into the meta or build into something else. The DPS floor is much, much higher now. Even if they did all that stuff you asked about, meta is a fact of life and will never go away. I would like to see some more solidity in identity and fantasy roles as well. But it wont change the fact that something will always be best.

ok but before we had 2 metas, one for mag chars and one for stam chars and almost every class brought a unique bonus to the group. Now with things like nazaray or turning tide you no longer need certain classes, even for tanks no longer matter what class they are

I see your point about nazarays and turning tide combo. Having raid groups tell me to just run my destro on my necro is a little odd. Normally composed groups and just individual players dont run a set bonus that you can get from casting a skill. The two sets come from the same dungeon as well. Unless they nerf something there my colo will probably be relatively useless in composed groups for the foreseeable future.

Necro is still needed, as it is the only class that can reliably provide empower to the entire group. Necro DPS is not required now, but that's the same situation that other classes have been in for years.

As for the original topic, I disagree that the meta is limiting. We have more options than ever before. 2h back bar is viable for the first time (ever?), which is great, but it's certainly not mandatory. I have yet to see a trial boss where the 2h DPS were pulling far ahead of anyone with a maelstrom inferno. It's great on a dummy, and seemingly within the margin of error for most fights.

Integral1900 · March 2022

Blimey, what a load of hyperbole…!?

Oh yes, I forgot… I’m on the Internet aren’t I…

There is more choice now than there is ever been in the history of this game, any lack of build diversity is entirely down to the person playing the character.

If you can get between 90,000 and 110,000 DPS you can clear any content in this game regardless of difficulty. If I can do it, anybody can, I’ve got the reflexes of a county council and the memory of a politician LMAO

Before the changes I was close to giving up this game, everything was so dull, so set in stone, now it feels like I’m playing a totally new one, it’s wonderful.

I’ve got so many ideas for builds it’s going to take months to work my way through them even without thorough testing.

It’s awesome, almost anything works now. I feel like a kid in a sweet shop with a free tab!

danno8 · March 2022

jecks33 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

I think the main cost of the hybridization is the identity of each setup.

Ofc you can slap any skills or sets to a dps and say
"You see this wasn't possible before but now it is, therefore it allowed diversity"
But it feels more like they have made soup with 50 ingredents and everyone take a spoon from it with 5 random ingredients.
It doesn't feel unique, every set up more or less the same.
There is no feeling of mage or warrior or some other theme to the characters.
Every single character feels like bunch of random stuff mashed together.
Increased usage of out of class skills doesn't help either.

Non-class abilities suprassing class abilities is another problem.
Their purpose should be helping classes where they are lacking.
Like
"You are a nb with high single target burst, do you lack aoe damage? Here is destro/2h skill. You won't have as good aoe damage as templar or necro but here you go"
Or
"You are dk with lots of dots but you like burst? Here is dual wield/mages guild/fighters guild or whatever skills. It won't be as good as sorc or nb but here you go"

But instead they calculate skills on spreadsheets and hybridize everything to create this soulless mess of a balance.

1000% agree

People get confused between interclass and intraclass diversity.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2022

Kisakee wrote: »

You can still parse 100k with double staff and full light armor as a full Magicka based character, the so-called meta is only pushing boundaries but it doesn't mean that other options are no longer viable.

You're still high end just no longer top end but that's not what you need to be anyway. Having good movement and being calm enough to do your rotation even in stressful fights is way more worth than extra damage on a helpless dummy.

I made up a purely static DK rotation with double staffs that hits 110K (5 light, 2 medium), and I am not a bleeding edge DPS. Only time I parsed higher than that pre-patch was on a one button stamplar a while back. Sure, you can do some stuff to push you into that 120k range on some classes (necro is probably easiest as it can be done statically), and my guess is, some of that will get toned down in a patch or two, but you have never had more options to be competitive in end game content. 110k single target is an absurd amount of damage for a relatively easy and static rotation, on a very traditionally light armor mDK build.

Drdeath20 · March 2022

Most Effective Tactic Available

Something that every class can wear and do.

What’s the problem?

MudcrabAttack · March 2022

There are a lot of metas depending on your situation. I’m talking weapon choice, gear choice, class, etc.

I took an archer warden into non-hard mode vet kynes aegis the other day, Bahsei + Tzogvin + Maelstrom bow + kilt, using such skills as caltrops, mystic orb, acid spray, endless hail, etc. Archers are the underdog of this patch. It was doing the most damage out of not just the group I joined, but it was the top stam warden DPS listed on eso logs for captain Vrol at the time. And I suck compared to a lot of those other dps, by the way.

When I hit a target dummy with this build it’s 95k dps. When I swap out to relequen + dual wield Kinras + maelstrom greatsword back bar, the atronach parse gets 122kdps, but apparently that combo is not that great for capt. Vrol, I know because I tried it earlier

Supreme_Atromancer · March 2022

jecks33 wrote: »

Where are the classic fantasy roles? is really this what people want?

This. The power fantasies are garbled and the classic fantasy roles have absolutely no currency in anything more challenging than Stonefalls Dolmen. Choosing to build your character intuitively around these things will leave you drastically, laughably underpowered and useless to your teammates.

You just slot whatever gives the highest numbers. It doesn't matter what the skin is, its utterly irrelevant.

I think zos doesn't really give a crap about power fantasy: its been the most expendable element for a very long time.

They're constantly redefining what some power fantasy "might" mean until its some contrived, twisted horror begging to be aborted in order to serve standards of balance and diversity.

The same way that in order to FINALLY achieve the goal of viable hybridisation they'd been seeking since 2014 they just redefined what it meant by homogenising resources so they lost all meaning.

Eiregirl · March 2022

jecks33 wrote: »

(if you are the guy that "eeehhh don't follow the meta, play as you like, wear what you want!1!!11!" this post is NOT for you)

Content creators are releasing new parses with crazy numbers but seems like there is one only meta for every class, "mag" and "stam", dk or necro, sorc or templar... Everybody wear kinra/relequen/kilt/mael greatsword using almost the same skills. With the new tank sets even group composition is not so relevant.

I find it boring, where is class identity? where is build diversity? Where are the classic fantasy roles? is really this what people want?

Well, I am not that "guy", but I am that "girl" who does not follow any meta but my own mainly because what is meta for one person may not be for another.

Class identity (CI) is lost for most who like following "meta" but I do hope the devs will be able to find (CI) as they wander around aimlessly.

Build diversity is alive and well if people will stop following youtuber and internet builds and work out a good build for themselves (this could also help class identity).

Classic fantasy roles...I am not sure what you mean by that but I assume you mean tank, healer, and damage dealers which you will most often only see in trials, somewhat in PVP, and sometimes in vet dlc dungeons. If you mean something else by classic fantasy roles let me know.

What they have done is not something everyone wants at least not in the way they have done it.

I love the diversity in the game and how people can come up with hundreds of different ways to play a class and they are all viable for any content in the game even if they are not what some people might call "meta".

Supreme_Atromancer · March 2022

Eiregirl wrote: »

Classic fantasy roles...I am not sure what you mean by that but I assume you mean tank, healer, and damage dealers which you will most often only see in trials, somewhat in PVP, and sometimes in vet dlc dungeons. If you mean something else by classic fantasy roles let me know.

The basic fantasy archetypes. Like something you would likely steer towards if you wanted to play an Elder Scrolls game, but never knew anything about meta. Say I want to play a proper Fireball-throwing Gandalf. Or, like an Ice Mage. What if I want to play the classic nordic sword-and-board warrior? Or any type of magic-fearing, trust-in-iron type warrior? Or worse still, a barbarian style character?

You could play the first couple but you would be nerfing yourself significantly to do so. For a firemage or wizard, you go with Sorcerer and get locked thematically into the whole lightning thing, so ignore all your class skills and passives and eat the gimpage, or what was the point? Or you could go with the more viable MagDK which locks you into all this martial, melee, dragon stuff that doesn't feel anything like a classic firemage, really. Ice mage is worse. Either go sorcerer, wield an ice staff and just ignore your entire lightning-based toolkit (and again at that point, what's the point?) Or go the more likely route again with Warden and get stuck with the boked, mutant concept of pterodactyl-slinging, mushroom-spraying, jellyfish-pissing horror if you don't want to just ignore the vast majority of your skills. That doesn't feel like an ice mage. And even for all the compromises you make, you will still be underperforming in terms of damage as the cost for all the utility ice gives that is at best totally redundant to your role and at worse actually problematic as you frustrate your tank trying to pull crap in for the burn.

And those are the most viable options. Don't get me started on a true barbarian or warrior-style character. The way that resources work you're doing all sorts of supernatural stuff with your stamina at best, or have nothing you can use in your entire class kit and relying purely on the skills from the weapon lines at worse.

And while arguably, as you point out, you can still do stuff without strict meta, I think that it says something about the direction and thinking of development where any of this sort of stuff is at best grossly underpowered compared to something built by mechanical considerations alone, and at worst you're not going to be able to tackle the harder, more rewarding content and are being relegated to overland and normal as the consolation prize that building intuitively consigns you to, while the cool, challenging big boi stuff is explicitly for people who don't care about concept.

RevJJ · March 2022

It seems to me like ZOS does not want class identity or diversity in gear.

What they seem to want is:

- people playing only one character (see: armory system and AWA)
- Everyone using the same gear (from the latest DLC or chapter of course, they need people to keep buying)

Perhaps the next step will be removing classes altogether so people will all use the same skills. And they’ll say it’s to improve performance.

Supreme_Atromancer · March 2022

RevJJ wrote: »

It seems to me like ZOS does not want class identity or diversity in gear.

What they seem to want is:

- people playing only one character (see: armory system and AWA)
- Everyone using the same gear (from the latest DLC or chapter of course, they need people to keep buying)

Perhaps the next step will be removing classes altogether so people will all use the same skills. And they’ll say it’s to improve performance.

I think they saw the substantial complaints about boredom with weapons. People actually meant that they wanted new weapons suited to the power fantasies. People want "spells equipped in hand" like in Skyrim for their mage characters or spears, one-hand-and spell, unarmed combat sort of things.

ZOS instead gave people more versatility by making all the same old weapons more viable for all types of builds, by leaning more and more into your power resource doesn't matter.

I guess they went this route because they aren't in a position to add new weapons and powers because of performance, animations, and the work to do new art or whatever.

But the solution is unsatisfying and weird for some people.

Cuddlypuff · March 2022

I think it's great for people that do content on all alts and are too lazy to personalize each one. Right now I'm able to run the exact same build on every character for both PVE (mag dps) and PVP (stam 2h bombers). Really saves a lot of time when doing 18 RND a day or grinding Cyrodiil campaign rewards. Perfect with gearswap and bank deposit/withdrawl addons like Wizard's Wardrobe.

Not saying hybridization makes anything more enjoyable but at least it makes it a lot simpler to standardize alts for efficient grinds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I think it's great for people that do content on all alts and are too lazy to personalize each one. Right now I'm able to run the exact same build on every character for both PVE (mag dps) and PVP (stam 2h bombers). Really saves a lot of time when doing 18 RND a day or grinding Cyrodiil campaign rewards. Perfect with gearswap and bank deposit/withdrawl addons like Wizard's Wardrobe.

Not saying hybridization makes anything more enjoyable but at least it makes it a lot simpler to standardize alts for efficient grinds.

Wizard's Wardrobe has me intrigued. Will it auto deposit and withdraw an entire gear setup?

Adventurer · March 2022

I haven't logged in yet due to some AwA changes (merging your achievemnts), so I'm curious - is it still optimal to put all your stat points into either magicka or stamina?

What does weapon damage scale off now? Can I play as a sorc and equip stamina weapons, but have all points in magicka and still do max damage with a 2h or a greatsword?

Bradyfjord · March 2022

Adventurer wrote: »

I haven't logged in yet due to some AwA changes (merging your achievemnts), so I'm curious - is it still optimal to put all your stat points into either magicka or stamina?

What does weapon damage scale off now? Can I play as a sorc and equip stamina weapons, but have all points in magicka and still do max damage with a 2h or a greatsword?

I personally tune my stats to what resources I need. For example, my sorc has several buffs that need recasting and I use the stam morph of lightning form. But I play solo/duo with family so my needs are different than others' in this regard.

Cuddlypuff · March 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I think it's great for people that do content on all alts and are too lazy to personalize each one. Right now I'm able to run the exact same build on every character for both PVE (mag dps) and PVP (stam 2h bombers). Really saves a lot of time when doing 18 RND a day or grinding Cyrodiil campaign rewards. Perfect with gearswap and bank deposit/withdrawl addons like Wizard's Wardrobe.

Not saying hybridization makes anything more enjoyable but at least it makes it a lot simpler to standardize alts for efficient grinds.

Wizard's Wardrobe has me intrigued. Will it auto deposit and withdraw an entire gear setup?

Yes it is amazing. My wife and I can usually do 18x RND in a 2-3 hr block during double xp events. It also has a ton of other features such as automatically loading gear/cp slottable/skill setups depending on which trial you're in.

xaraan · March 2022

OP isn't wrong.

Though I don't think it's a big as deal as it's being made out to be.... or I guess it's more accurate to say: it's not really much more of a bigger deal than it was before hybrid builds.

Now there is one optimal DPS trial build, before there was two, one for stamina and one for magicka. (For the most part)

So I didn't find the non-hybrid way very diverse either.

I'm fine with the hybrid concept, and I wish more racials were suited for the new hybrid meta. Some like khajiit and dark elf really shine here, where more specific ones like bretons and redguards are still very much one-sided.

What I'd like to see are more sets that are optimal for certain classes (similar to what some others have said). Kind of like how "deadly" can be a bit better on a templar vs. other classes, or "war maiden" - and those sets need to be competitive with the other meta sets. So the option could be, if you are a templar you can run the same old meta or mix it up with set X or Y. And this should happen for every class, so there should be a few sets in the game for each class that are ok on any class but really shine on a particular one.

I also think that they could make some changes to various skills or existing arena weapons for balance sake so that (for example) the weapon you run on your back bar could be somewhat interchangeable and a choice you make for flavor more than b/c the meta says all fire staves or whatever - so running a bow wouldn't be any different than staff, it's just a choice you are making for the character and what you like for it.

They could even introduce specific mythics in the future that were super focused on amplifying a specific skill from a certain class. Like a ring that made NB's funnel health into the old version that damaged and did a little heal to a couple people (just an example, not even saying it's a good one) or a ring that made a class ground effect like lightning flood double in duration, etc. Again, they would have to be competitive with other meta mythics or add some bonus use outside of just straight damage buffs that are useful.

But personally, I've always been more interested in various sets that will let a class shine over whether they were a magicka or stamina build.

Adventurer · March 2022

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Adventurer wrote: »

I haven't logged in yet due to some AwA changes (merging your achievemnts), so I'm curious - is it still optimal to put all your stat points into either magicka or stamina?

What does weapon damage scale off now? Can I play as a sorc and equip stamina weapons, but have all points in magicka and still do max damage with a 2h or a greatsword?

I personally tune my stats to what resources I need. For example, my sorc has several buffs that need recasting and I use the stam morph of lightning form. But I play solo/duo with family so my needs are different than others' in this regard.

Right! What does weapon damage scale off now, is it the highest of either mag/stam, so you can get maximum damage out of a physical attack too with max magicka nand vice versa?

Everest_Lionheart · April 2022

Meta sets are one thing, the ESO community gate keeping content is another.

Now that 120K is the new top tier for DPS I am seeing teams raising their requirements over 110K now. I’m not talking about teams running trifecta’s or anything like that either I mean hard mode clears like VOR, BOL, and SOTN. What’s it’s doing is closing ranks around the same people in the trial community and gate keeping players that are finally able to break 85-90K out of having the chance to get clears. Wasn’t the point of raising the floor to get people access to more content?

Bobby_V_Rockit · April 2022

And here’s me still bumbling around with False God’s Devotion and Mad Tinkerer lol

Silversmith · April 2022

There is no balance in this game.
There is no clear defined roles.
You just go with the current over performing broken meta until the next one comes out.

jtm1018 · April 2022

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

Yep no more magicka or stamina to me. It’s just Tank, Healer, Dps for each class vs a Mag or Stam dps. Hybrid will be better and phase it out. In away this locks in a Trinity.

You don’t have to use meta sets tho, as long as you are within a good range of the YT parse humpers you should be fine. The range is wide also unless you are in a score pushing guild.

Example you don’t need 120k dps and will be fine with anything 75k +

Shucks, I cant even do 50kdps.
Yes, I only have the base game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Did some tests on my mag DK last night. Again, I am not a ground breaking DPS. I have a pace of .93-.95 and usually miss 2-3 LAs (not counting stampede which I apparently cant weave). On DK, I play what would probably be called a semi static rotation. It aint that hard on the scheme of things. Only cheese on these parses is that I will cast Channeled acceleration pre fight. I didn't mess with ulti pots or disabling passives, etc.

-Double Staff with Kinra and Bahsei, Roughly 110k. I am not great at the mag dump mini game, I do dump magic at the start, but then I really dont pay attention to it. I think if you disable battle roar, this number would be higher. Problem is no matter how much you dump at the beginning, your ultimate fills you up when you cast it the first time.

-DW/Staff Kinra/Bahsei. Roughly 112k. So yeah, daggers give a bit more damage. They should because you sacrifice range.

-DW/Staff Kinra/Relequen. Roughly 115k. Bit more single target, again, makes sense, as Bahsei is going to be better for AOE. You also tend to over pen on a dummy in 5 light which I run with Bahsei (don't have perfected Rings). Sustain is also tougher, so again, reasonable tradeoffs.

-DW/2H Kinra/Relequen. Roughly 17.5k. Slightly more than a back bar staff, but now you are totally committed to melee. Stam management can get a little rough if stacked into magic, but its doable.

-Swapped in AY for Kinra. My numbers dropped on average by about 300 DPS, which I am not sure can be statistically significant. I only did a few parses on each.

So now, we have 3 specs and 3 distinct gear combos that are all within a few K of each other. All could be considered effectively meta. All play a little different, all are perfectly viable, even for things like trifectas. All are better in some situations than others. I think this is really healthy overall.

If you want to see the extremely robust version of this test, skinny cheeks posted one. I usually seem to be about 3-5k behind him on a dummy (I was 120k on static stamcro where he was 125k), but he is just better than me. LOL.

Everest_Lionheart · April 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Did some tests on my mag DK last night. Again, I am not a ground breaking DPS. I have a pace of .93-.95 and usually miss 2-3 LAs (not counting stampede which I apparently cant weave). On DK, I play what would probably be called a semi static rotation. It aint that hard on the scheme of things. Only cheese on these parses is that I will cast Channeled acceleration pre fight. I didn't mess with ulti pots or disabling passives, etc.

-Double Staff with Kinra and Bahsei, Roughly 110k. I am not great at the mag dump mini game, I do dump magic at the start, but then I really dont pay attention to it. I think if you disable battle roar, this number would be higher. Problem is no matter how much you dump at the beginning, your ultimate fills you up when you cast it the first time.

-DW/Staff Kinra/Bahsei. Roughly 112k. So yeah, daggers give a bit more damage. They should because you sacrifice range.

-DW/Staff Kinra/Relequen. Roughly 115k. Bit more single target, again, makes sense, as Bahsei is going to be better for AOE. You also tend to over pen on a dummy in 5 light which I run with Bahsei (don't have perfected Rings). Sustain is also tougher, so again, reasonable tradeoffs.

-DW/2H Kinra/Relequen. Roughly 17.5k. Slightly more than a back bar staff, but now you are totally committed to melee. Stam management can get a little rough if stacked into magic, but its doable.

-Swapped in AY for Kinra. My numbers dropped on average by about 300 DPS, which I am not sure can be statistically significant. I only did a few parses on each.

So now, we have 3 specs and 3 distinct gear combos that are all within a few K of each other. All could be considered effectively meta. All play a little different, all are perfectly viable, even for things like trifectas. All are better in some situations than others. I think this is really healthy overall.

If you want to see the extremely robust version of this test, skinny cheeks posted one. I usually seem to be about 3-5k behind him on a dummy (I was 120k on static stamcro where he was 125k), but he is just better than me. LOL.

I hit 105K in Zen’s Bahsei running DW front, VMA staff back. Full static using 14 second wall, no poison morph to claw, no points taken out of passive, trap on the backbar, inner light on front, 6 light, 1 med. Literally the same think I parsed 103K with last patch. Chuckled to myself how easy DPS this patch without going full meta and vowed to not run maelstrom 2H on backbar on any mag toons because stampede is wonky enough on stam.

p00tx · April 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Meta sets are one thing, the ESO community gate keeping content is another.

Now that 120K is the new top tier for DPS I am seeing teams raising their requirements over 110K now. I’m not talking about teams running trifecta’s or anything like that either I mean hard mode clears like VOR, BOL, and SOTN. What’s it’s doing is closing ranks around the same people in the trial community and gate keeping players that are finally able to break 85-90K out of having the chance to get clears. Wasn’t the point of raising the floor to get people access to more content?

More content, yes. More groups? No. Groups can decide the parameters for entry any way they like, and since it's only natural to want to choose the path of least resistance, they're typically going to ask for the highest dps available. What this does do though is it opens up the opportunity for players who might want to assemble a group with just enough dps requirement to clear the content and then progress that content together. If you're comfortable leading, you could even be that raid lead. It's not as awful and scary as it sounds, and people putting together groups like these is what will bridge that huge skill gap. We need more mid range groups with mid range requirements to fill that space.

Edit: I just saw your next post and it looks like you're putting out competitive numbers, so I'm not sure what you were on about in your previous post. Zen is a support set, and people aren't expected to hit top parses in support sets.

Everest_Lionheart · April 2022

p00tx wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Meta sets are one thing, the ESO community gate keeping content is another.

Now that 120K is the new top tier for DPS I am seeing teams raising their requirements over 110K now. I’m not talking about teams running trifecta’s or anything like that either I mean hard mode clears like VOR, BOL, and SOTN. What’s it’s doing is closing ranks around the same people in the trial community and gate keeping players that are finally able to break 85-90K out of having the chance to get clears. Wasn’t the point of raising the floor to get people access to more content?

More content, yes. More groups? No. Groups can decide the parameters for entry any way they like, and since it's only natural to want to choose the path of least resistance, they're typically going to ask for the highest dps available. What this does do though is it opens up the opportunity for players who might want to assemble a group with just enough dps requirement to clear the content and then progress that content together. If you're comfortable leading, you could even be that raid lead. It's not as awful and scary as it sounds, and people putting together groups like these is what will bridge that huge skill gap. We need more mid range groups with mid range requirements to fill that space.

Edit: I just saw your next post and it looks like you're putting out competitive numbers, so I'm not sure what you were on about in your previous post. Zen is a support set, and people aren't expected to hit top parses in support sets.

I’m on about bringing those mid tier people along for the ride. Something some core teams I am on that are starved for DPS subs just don’t seem to be flexible enough to do. It’s do lead mid tier groups through vSS and have been for a while now. People think I’m crazy to bring 60-65K players in there but it’s not that hard if they can stay alive and know how to stack and focus the correct adds.

I’m literally laughing at some groups requiring 100K for vCR3. It’s not the DPS that gets the group killed it’s people who drop ice in group when there is fire or forget to barswap in exe. I see BOL players doing this all the time, maybe they are trolling IDK.

VAS2 is full of 100K floor lords but I’ve seen groups with 80K players clear it with no trouble and yet people still setting the bar at 90-95+

Point is mid tier dps don’t get enough opportunities to be successful at this type of content because they will get wrecked by the same mechs that kill the upper tier dps. That and you have people advertising themselves as prog groups when they want big numbers and mandatory clears to join their prog team. Isn’t the point of prog teams to prog? Seems like some people want easy clears. Don’t advertise as a prog team if you expect instant results.

LashanW · April 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Point is mid tier dps don’t get enough opportunities to be successful at this type of content because they will get wrecked by the same mechs that kill the upper tier dps. That and you have people advertising themselves as prog groups when they want big numbers and mandatory clears to join their prog team. Isn’t the point of prog teams to prog? Seems like some people want easy clears. Don’t advertise as a prog team if you expect instant results.

What's your platform? console?

In PC-EU I've very rarely seen such strict dps parse requirements. Only seen it for trifecta progressions and HM farm runs. Saw it a couple of times for vRG hm progressions. Even then the number was less than 100k.

Most guilds I've seen use a ranking system based on what you have cleared. Idea is to have newer member join for easier vet runs, get the clears and rank up for HM clears and eventually trifectas.

In general, raiding guilds in PC-EU seems to be moving away from parse requirements and focus more on actual clears and logs (logs for harder stuff like trifecta prog groups). People here don't seem to care that much about dummy parses anymore. Which is great.

Everest_Lionheart · April 2022

LashanW wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Point is mid tier dps don’t get enough opportunities to be successful at this type of content because they will get wrecked by the same mechs that kill the upper tier dps. That and you have people advertising themselves as prog groups when they want big numbers and mandatory clears to join their prog team. Isn’t the point of prog teams to prog? Seems like some people want easy clears. Don’t advertise as a prog team if you expect instant results.

What's your platform? console?

In PC-EU I've very rarely seen such strict dps parse requirements. Only seen it for trifecta progressions and HM farm runs. Saw it a couple of times for vRG hm progressions. Even then the number was less than 100k.

Most guilds I've seen use a ranking system based on what you have cleared. Idea is to have newer member join for easier vet runs, get the clears and rank up for HM clears and eventually trifectas.

In general, raiding guilds in PC-EU seems to be moving away from parse requirements and focus more on actual clears and logs (logs for harder stuff like trifecta prog groups). People here don't seem to care that much about dummy parses anymore. Which is great.

Console where the only metrics we have a parses. Don’t get me wrong some guilds have a decent ranking system to track clears but actually getting into a HM or trifecta run is hard enough as a sub with the credentials and making the roster for a team is even tougher.

Now I sub a lot, perform well in those runs and still don’t get invited to be a regular. I do keep my mouth shut and stay out of the way though even when I see obvious mistakes because it’s not my team. Other people don’t have that kind of luxury though to be dependable enough to sub on many teams because they struggle to get in the most basic runs to get clears. The first hurdle is always DPS. What kills me is requiring clears to get clears.

Which brings me back to the original topic. Why even bother chasing the meta when there are so many viable builds to break 100K? And why gatekeep runs if you haven’t met that threshold?