What justifies cloak not having a built in drawback?

BXR_Lonestar · March 2022

axi wrote: »

Cloak despite being an ability that opens very strong offensive options is also bringing lot of defense into the table. Succesful vanishing in fight on demand is the strongest defensive option there can be. What is wierd is that despire it being really strong defensive ability developer puts the weight of dealing with it not on the side of the user but on the side of the victim. There is plenty of strong defenses in the game but most of them have built in drawbacks on the user side. For example when You block You can't regen stamina , when You dodge Your next dodge roll is more expensive , when You use streak next streak will be more expensive, when You are in the mist form Your mag and stam regen stops and You cant be healed however when You use cloak there is no penatly at all. To add even more cloak synergyzes extremly well with dodge roll and both basically make each other stronger. Dodge roll makes it easier to get away from things that could disrupt cloaking while cloak basically allows to bypass dodge roll penatly because whenever dodging becomes too expensive You can cloak and wait until drawback timer ends. With such strong defense it's really wierd that there is no built in drawback on cloak. And before someone will come and tell "but there are counters to cloak" , well ok but other mentioned defenses also have counters but they still have built in drawbacks. It's really wierd design to move the pressure of dealing with cloak to victims side. Also let's be honest current sources of dealing with cloak are at best mediocre and situationally usefull when very often using them forces the user to weaken himself just to have a chance to deal with cloak. The most logical drawback could be atleast disrupting the synergy that dodge roll and cloak have because that type of defense creates lots of extremly forgiving situations for a very little skill input and saying "just use this or that" really doesnt solve the issue when there is no penatly on users side. This creates lots of unfair situations where many people attempts to gank someone and when completly failing instead of being punished by the game they just vanish to come back and repeat the procces until they succed because even if vinctim will try to kill them there are high chances they will be easily able to escape with series of dodge rolls and cloaks.

Cloak only lasts 2-3 seconds, that is why it has no built in downside. Its such a short-lived ability in the first place. It offers zero damage reduction. And there are many ways you can easily get pulled out of it.

Amottica · March 2022

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2022

Short answer: the amount of easily available hard counters, that you slot anyway...

Tbh. The title of this thread is very misleading. Pretty much every skill in the game might as well be put into the title like this... would that make a lot of sense ? Probably not...

axi · March 2022

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

I think You misunderstood the context of my comment. As I said in my original post every mentioned by me strong source of defense also have drawbacks like that. Drawbacks on the opponent side. For example You can use gap closers to make streak less effective or You can use DoTs or skills like jabs or unblockable stuns to make blocking less effective , You can use AoE , DoTs, chanelled abilities or undodgable stuns to make dodge less effective etc. To keep streak or block or dodge going also requires sustain and investments into it. Still all of them have built in drawbacks on the users side which cloak lacks of.

Thecompton73 · March 2022

Post Mortem of the thread:

Op has an opinion based on an internal logic that doesn't seem to jibe with reality for most. Many have tried to explain their actual experience of using the mechanic is different from OP's understanding of it. Op Continues to hold the original opinions expressed to be valid despite this.

I don't think this thread will produce anything constructive at this point and should just be closed.

DrSlaughtr · March 2022

I'm not talking about wings anymore. I respectfully suggest we stay on topic.

kringled_1 · March 2022

axi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

I think You misunderstood the context of my comment. As I said in my original post every mentioned by me strong source of defense also have drawbacks like that. Drawbacks on the opponent side. For example You can use gap closers to make streak less effective or You can use DoTs or skills like jabs or unblockable stuns to make blocking less effective , You can use AoE , DoTs, chanelled abilities or undodgable stuns to make dodge less effective etc. To keep streak or block or dodge going also requires sustain and investments into it. Still all of them have built in drawbacks on the users side which cloak lacks of.

I don't know how you can mention cloak as a defense and think it doesn't require sustain investment. Using cloak as a major part of your toolkit requires a ton of sustain. If it's used occasionally because the build relies more on crouch stealth, or dodging interspersed with an occasional, then sure.

Amottica · March 2022

kringled_1 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

I think You misunderstood the context of my comment. As I said in my original post every mentioned by me strong source of defense also have drawbacks like that. Drawbacks on the opponent side. For example You can use gap closers to make streak less effective or You can use DoTs or skills like jabs or unblockable stuns to make blocking less effective , You can use AoE , DoTs, chanelled abilities or undodgable stuns to make dodge less effective etc. To keep streak or block or dodge going also requires sustain and investments into it. Still all of them have built in drawbacks on the users side which cloak lacks of.

I don't know how you can mention cloak as a defense and think it doesn't require sustain investment. Using cloak as a major part of your toolkit requires a ton of sustain. If it's used occasionally because the build relies more on crouch stealth, or dodging interspersed with an occasional, then sure.

And let us not forget that a single player can render the cloak skill unusable.

Against a player of similar skill an NB can expect to find it challenging to use cloak effectively. It is easy to tell when I’m up against a skilled NB vs one who thinks cloak is an “I win” button.

Bradyfjord · March 2022

I have never lost a fight where the deciding factor is cloak. I sympathize with your feelings, but have you tried playing as a nightblade? Cloak is not as strong as you are implying.

Amottica · March 2022

axi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

I think You misunderstood the context of my comment. As I said in my original post every mentioned by me strong source of defense also have drawbacks like that. Drawbacks on the opponent side. For example You can use gap closers to make streak less effective or You can use DoTs or skills like jabs or unblockable stuns to make blocking less effective , You can use AoE , DoTs, chanelled abilities or undodgable stuns to make dodge less effective etc. To keep streak or block or dodge going also requires sustain and investments into it. Still all of them have built in drawbacks on the users side which cloak lacks of.

@axi

And I noted a very strong drawback to cloak. One that Zenimax purposely designed to counter cloak. That is the first point I noted. Asa such I do not misunderstand anything. Those counters are numerous. Many debuff the NB so they cannot immediately use cloak again rendering the skill useless for that period of time. These counters are proven very effective every day in Cyrodiil by those who choose to use them. Of course, that is a choice but every aspect of our character's build is a choice that increases or decreases effectiveness. In a well-organized group, there will be multiple people running counters.

danno8 · March 2022

olsborg wrote: »

Remove all counters to cloak, then they can start putting in limitation like for example with streak.

This is how I would have designed cloak if I was in charge (lol).

Make no hard counters to cloak at all (I dislike hard counters in general), so no skills with reveal, no pots, nothing. When you use cloak you WILL be invisible for those 3 seconds without fail. BUT, you will take all damage directed at you through AoE or DoT's that are on you (but not be revealed remember), and you will have either a ramping cost (+50% per cast stackable debuff that expires after being out of stealth for 3 seconds), or have resource suspension while in cloak, one or the other.

This would make cloak 100% reliable, very powerful but also not spammable and higher risk to use.

DrSlaughtr · March 2022

danno8 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Remove all counters to cloak, then they can start putting in limitation like for example with streak.

This is how I would have designed cloak if I was in charge (lol).

Make no hard counters to cloak at all (I dislike hard counters in general), so no skills with reveal, no pots, nothing. When you use cloak you WILL be invisible for those 3 seconds without fail. BUT, you will take all damage directed at you through AoE or DoT's that are on you (but not be revealed remember), and you will have either a ramping cost (+50% per cast stackable debuff that expires after being out of stealth for 3 seconds), or have resource suspension while in cloak, one or the other.

This would make cloak 100% reliable, very powerful but also not spammable and higher risk to use.

I would never get into an enemy keep, much less the inner.

Mayrael · March 2022

I have played Magblade for the last 5 years. I'll tell you that lately I've come to the conclusion that I don't know why I did it, I guess it was just because it gave me satisfaction to play one of the weakest characters but honestly I'm sick of it and the reason is that now 90% of players have and use cloak counter which results in the skill being useless most of the time. I went back to magsorc and the difference is just mindblowing. Execute, delayed burst, sustain skill which is also heal, aoe stun which is a combination of two or even 3 NB skills.

I don't know why I tortured myself trying to play magblade but thanks to how difficult this character is, playing magsorc is now just ridiculously easy.

I really recommend playing NB especially magblade to see how useless cloak can be. It's a skill that may seem OP but is only so against inexperienced players, anyone with any understanding of the game knows how to deal with it.

ArchMikem · March 2022

Stealth/Invisibility is the single most important character trait to a Nightblade, and everyone that has to fight them wants to take that away cause it's "annoying". You know Nightblades also have to deal with other Nightblades right?

As others have said there are already plenty of counters to Cloak. It's already expensive to cast with how little duration it gives, and you get revealed by Inner Light or Pots or any AoE very easily. Or just build for enough sustain/resists to where their pokes are tickles, then what good does their invisibility on demand do for them? Your biggest mistakes when fighting a stealthy boi are being a squishy glass cannon build, and panicking during a gank. Mitigate their burst potential and you take away all their power.