What justifies cloak not having a built in drawback?

axi

Cloak despite being an ability that opens very strong offensive options is also bringing lot of defense into the table. Succesful vanishing in fight on demand is the strongest defensive option there can be. What is wierd is that despire it being really strong defensive ability developer puts the weight of dealing with it not on the side of the user but on the side of the victim. There is plenty of strong defenses in the game but most of them have built in drawbacks on the user side. For example when You block You can't regen stamina , when You dodge Your next dodge roll is more expensive , when You use streak next streak will be more expensive, when You are in the mist form Your mag and stam regen stops and You cant be healed however when You use cloak there is no penatly at all. To add even more cloak synergyzes extremly well with dodge roll and both basically make each other stronger. Dodge roll makes it easier to get away from things that could disrupt cloaking while cloak basically allows to bypass dodge roll penatly because whenever dodging becomes too expensive You can cloak and wait until drawback timer ends. With such strong defense it's really wierd that there is no built in drawback on cloak. And before someone will come and tell "but there are counters to cloak" , well ok but other mentioned defenses also have counters but they still have built in drawbacks. It's really wierd design to move the pressure of dealing with cloak to victims side. Also let's be honest current sources of dealing with cloak are at best mediocre and situationally usefull when very often using them forces the user to weaken himself just to have a chance to deal with cloak. The most logical drawback could be atleast disrupting the synergy that dodge roll and cloak have because that type of defense creates lots of extremly forgiving situations for a very little skill input and saying "just use this or that" really doesnt solve the issue when there is no penatly on users side. This creates lots of unfair situations where many people attempts to gank someone and when completly failing instead of being punished by the game they just vanish to come back and repeat the procces until they succed because even if vinctim will try to kill them there are high chances they will be easily able to escape with series of dodge rolls and cloaks.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Well, there are some pretty obvious hard counters, but I think the most obvious answer is Sorc Tears.

In my opinion, it is the strongest open world tool in Cyro, but I dont think its changing. It is certainly as deserving of a stack cost as streak, but dont think that is happening at this point.

Vevvev

Tons of counters with some being outright insanely good rendering cloak a joke. But the main takeaway is you have to have the counters actually in effect and slotted, and some people go without them so they're better at combating others.

Sure in my case I love Flames of Oblivion, but due to Nightblades I find myself using Inner Light instead. Same goes for single target vs AoE. I can't get away from using Engulfing Flames even if I wanted to because most of the time that direct damage AoE is another counter to cloak and dodge rolling.

Cloak's existence necessitates people building a certain way in PvP. If you don't take the necessary precautions you'll find yourself with a NB poking at your back, but if you do you'll find them trying to run away from you and failing.

This is why Cloak has to be paired with Shade because against someone with just one of the counters the NB is in huge trouble.

Amottica

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

DrSlaughtr

Players have been gifted numerous changes over the last 6 months specifically designed to nerf nightblades. All anyone has to do is use them.

You can't put ramping cost on shadowy disguise because it doesn't work like streak. I'm not teleporting away. I'm not leaving the battlefield. I'm not stunning people I run through. It gives me 3 seconds to maneuver and a likely crit.

The thing costs well over 3k. I have 18k mag that's used for shadowy and channeled acceleration, which is also very expensive. I'm not hitting it more than a few times before I'm tapped out and likely dead.

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Stop standing by yourself on siege. If you have to, keep flare active under you. Run pots. Keep your defenses up. If you are a good player but you're dying to a great NB, that's not a bad thing. If you're and average player dying to an average NB, then let's work on it.

Tell me your class and I'll tell you exactly what to do and not do.

auz

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Every character should should be running a detect skill? No. That is not well designed counter play. That is a band aid solution to crutched mechanic. Slotting a skill to counter another specific skill is something that is not done throughout the whole rest of the game.
And slotting a detect pot on a stam toon is ridiculous. They have to gimp their sustain for 45 seconds for 15 secs of being able to see a nb? At least make stam reco pots with reveal.

Sparxlost

i whole heartedly agree with this post
fighting stealthblades is like fighting a fly most of the time i cant see where they are and they are annoying....
i dont think stealth should be basekit for nightblades but to have an obvious and useful purpose to its utility as either a party starter or an escape tool
a cooldown would help
and for lost 1vx damage potential maybe they could buff the damage uptime for reapers mark???

DrSlaughtr

auz wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Every character should should be running a detect skill? No. That is not well designed counter play. That is a band aid solution to crutched mechanic. Slotting a skill to counter another specific skill is something that is not done throughout the whole rest of the game.
And slotting a detect pot on a stam toon is ridiculous. They have to gimp their sustain for 45 seconds for 15 secs of being able to see a nb? At least make stam reco pots with reveal.

I'd love to see the number of players not running at least one detect skill. It's a small number. They all have significant passive benefits and not running prophecy/savagery means running expensive potions non stop.

Maybe in wrong, so correct me if I am, but you seem to be mad that you can't just freely kill NBs for minimal effort. I have two characters I run Snow Treaders on counter one set (dark convergence). I run detect pots on every character, especially my nightblade, and sometimes I have to use one when it's not optimal to do so. That's the game.

You're failing to see the other side of this. I have every right to play my nightblade, which is a very specific playstyle, a style that the class is made for. You want to take this away because it's inconvenient to counter me. Every night I play I'm going against builds that can counter everything I do IF those players want to. Some don't bother. They die easy. The ones that do are the fun ones to go against.

Hescrow

Easy counters are stealth revelation with potions or fighter/mage skill.

Other counters are AOE skills like jabs

PvP_Exploiter

It is very easy to counter.

w002exp

Just run a detect skill or pot. Seriously, how much head beating does it take for people to realize. Nightblades are a one trick pony. Once you take that away from them, they don't have much else going.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

TheEndBringer wrote: »

auz wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Every character should should be running a detect skill? No. That is not well designed counter play. That is a band aid solution to crutched mechanic. Slotting a skill to counter another specific skill is something that is not done throughout the whole rest of the game.
And slotting a detect pot on a stam toon is ridiculous. They have to gimp their sustain for 45 seconds for 15 secs of being able to see a nb? At least make stam reco pots with reveal.

I'd love to see the number of players not running at least one detect skill. It's a small number. They all have significant passive benefits and not running prophecy/savagery means running expensive potions non stop.

Maybe in wrong, so correct me if I am, but you seem to be mad that you can't just freely kill NBs for minimal effort. I have two characters I run Snow Treaders on counter one set (dark convergence). I run detect pots on every character, especially my nightblade, and sometimes I have to use one when it's not optimal to do so. That's the game.

You're failing to see the other side of this. I have every right to play my nightblade, which is a very specific playstyle, a style that the class is made for. You want to take this away because it's inconvenient to counter me. Every night I play I'm going against builds that can counter everything I do IF those players want to. Some don't bother. They die easy. The ones that do are the fun ones to go against.

Actually, I bet its a pretty large number, but that is because at least half the population has no idea what they are doing. LOL. If you ask what percent of experienced players run one, than yes, its a big number. I usually dont bother with specific reveal skills, but I ALWAYS carry detect pots. I also be sure I have a skill like curse or some AOE that once I have revealed them, I can stay on top of them. My build is susceptible to gankers because I dont run much impen, but it is very effective at fighting stealth blades assuming they dont get me right at the start. They are one of my favorite encounters.

Amottica

auz wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Every character should should be running a detect skill? No. That is not well designed counter play. That is a band aid solution to crutched mechanic. Slotting a skill to counter another specific skill is something that is not done throughout the whole rest of the game.
And slotting a detect pot on a stam toon is ridiculous. They have to gimp their sustain for 45 seconds for 15 secs of being able to see a nb? At least make stam reco pots with reveal.

An organized group would have some run a counter but all do not have to run it. If someone chooses to run solo or the group does not play well that is not a problem with the design.

The reality is the counters do work well for many players who choose to use the counters. But again, this is a choice.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

auz wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Every character should should be running a detect skill? No. That is not well designed counter play. That is a band aid solution to crutched mechanic. Slotting a skill to counter another specific skill is something that is not done throughout the whole rest of the game.
And slotting a detect pot on a stam toon is ridiculous. They have to gimp their sustain for 45 seconds for 15 secs of being able to see a nb? At least make stam reco pots with reveal.

I'd love to see the number of players not running at least one detect skill. It's a small number. They all have significant passive benefits and not running prophecy/savagery means running expensive potions non stop.

Maybe in wrong, so correct me if I am, but you seem to be mad that you can't just freely kill NBs for minimal effort. I have two characters I run Snow Treaders on counter one set (dark convergence). I run detect pots on every character, especially my nightblade, and sometimes I have to use one when it's not optimal to do so. That's the game.

You're failing to see the other side of this. I have every right to play my nightblade, which is a very specific playstyle, a style that the class is made for. You want to take this away because it's inconvenient to counter me. Every night I play I'm going against builds that can counter everything I do IF those players want to. Some don't bother. They die easy. The ones that do are the fun ones to go against.

Actually, I bet its a pretty large number, but that is because at least half the population has no idea what they are doing. LOL. If you ask what percent of experienced players run one, than yes, its a big number. I usually dont bother with specific reveal skills, but I ALWAYS carry detect pots. I also be sure I have a skill like curse or some AOE that once I have revealed them, I can stay on top of them. My build is susceptible to gankers because I dont run much impen, but it is very effective at fighting stealth blades assuming they dont get me right at the start. They are one of my favorite encounters.

I expect you are right where it concerns players that spend a lot of time in PvP. This all comes down to using a proper build and using it well.

OWLTHEMAD

The amount of counters to shadowy disguise compared to literally any other skill in the game is insane. Because you dont even have to run one of the 'real' counters.

Impulse, spin to win, jabs, that sorc skill with the circular aoe around them. . . There are tons that skillfully used are remarably good at countering cloak.

[snip]

If you really think cloak is so op go play a nightblade for awhile.

A few things will happen

First: youll learn some very creative ways to counter cloak because trust me some people are really good at hunting blades

Second: assuming you reach a reasonable level of effectiveness, youll start to appreciate the mischeivous and high risk/low reward playstyle that stealth blades play. Because trust me stealthblades arent top teir builds. They are good at killing particular types of players and not much else. But the playstyle is fun and we have as much of a right to enjoy our brand of pvp as you do.

Theres more but seriously, go play one and get a new perspective. Youll be surprised.

[edited for minor baiting]

Tethilia

I would assume that the drawback is that all of the other nightblade skills are less effective than other class's skills. Cloak is the Nightblade's defining class skill. Let them have it.

Ryuvain

My problem with cloak is how badly designed it is. Think of it this way.

Just because of 1 skill from 1 class out of every skill in the game; they made several specific counter skills to only this 1 skill. And everyone in the game must run said specific counters just because of said skill.

Everyone loses 1 potion slot or skill slot because of the CHANCE an enemy runs that 1 move. That's horrid design.

I didn't say it needs a nerf either, but a redesign maybe? I play nightblade mainly, so I feel both sides of this.

Hotdog_23

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.

1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.

That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.

Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime

Drdeath20

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Players have been gifted numerous changes over the last 6 months specifically designed to nerf nightblades. All anyone has to do is use them.

You can't put ramping cost on shadowy disguise because it doesn't work like streak. I'm not teleporting away. I'm not leaving the battlefield. I'm not stunning people I run through. It gives me 3 seconds to maneuver and a likely crit.

The thing costs well over 3k. I have 18k mag that's used for shadowy and channeled acceleration, which is also very expensive. I'm not hitting it more than a few times before I'm tapped out and likely dead.

If you add a ramping cost, then what are you giving back? Because doing so severely limits the class. Every character should be running a detect skill. Every character can slot detect pots which work even better.

Stop standing by yourself on siege. If you have to, keep flare active under you. Run pots. Keep your defenses up. If you are a good player but you're dying to a great NB, that's not a bad thing. If you're and average player dying to an average NB, then let's work on it.

Tell me your class and I'll tell you exactly what to do and not do.

It suspends all DoTs too. There’s just a lot of power packed into 1 skill that has no drawbacks.

100% instant invisibility and stealth
A likely crit
Suspending of all DoTs no matter how many

VaxtinTheWolf

Would you rather have the skill work how it currently does or; Slap a 0.8s induction on it and have it last 5 seconds w/ passive but can't be recast if it's active. In turn, PBAoE no longer breaks it and the only things that do bypass it are the established Detection Potions and abilities from Mages/Fighters Guild or the Nightblade themselves using certain skills that cause it to end early.

If you want it to have an obvious drawback then that's what I came up with. It's probably not the greatest idea but it's an adjustment if anything. I'll add that this is in reference to only the Base and Shadowy Disguise Morph. The Dark Cloak Morph would not have a cast time applied to it.

ExistingRug61

A couple of points on this topic:

1) I think the OP’s premise that strong defensive skills should have a drawback isn’t necessarily a fair one from the comparisons provided. Firstly, dodge and block are core skills rather than slottable skills and all players always have access to them. As such I don’t think they are something that should be used when benchmarking slottable skills as they don’t compete against them. Which then leaves us with the question of whether strong defensive skills should have always drawbacks. The OP highlights that streak and mist form do and as such so should cloak, but what about other skills? There are a whole lot of other defensive skills that given the right circumstances can be very strong. Should these all get drawbacks to just because a couple of skills do? Where do you draw the line? Rather I think we need to look at skills individually to determine if they need one rather than simply follow logic of “it’s a strong defensive skill so we must give it a drawback”

2) All that said, while cloak may not have a direct drawback, it does suffer from several indirect drawbacks. As already highlighted by others it has several hard counters, some of which outright disable the skill from being used. Which isn’t something other defensive skills suffer from (outside of the global unique case of getting negated). So you have a drawback of having potentially a dead skill slot, which is an opportunity cost. The other subtle drawback of cloak it has the potential have no defensive benefit at all, depending on the opponents actions, so you can spend magicka for nothing. And I’m not talking about the cases when the opponent uses a direct counter like magelight, because at least then you have also cost the opponent resources. Rather, if your opponent plays as in a way as described by @Oreyn_Bearclaw with good use of AoE. In these cases, if you use cloak and they predict it and do something like jabs or spin to win, cloak gives you no benefit at all. In basically all other defensive skill cases, even if the opponent uses the right counter for your skill you at least get something: ie you use streak and they follow with either speed or a gap closer, at least you still deal damage, potentially stun and get the movement. Sure you may not have escaped but you still got something.

3) Where I will agree with the OP is that cloak is somewhat unique in that unlike most skills it much puts the onus on the opposing player to counter it. It forces them to do something different. But I disagree that this is a bad thing, rather I think it makes the game more involved and interesting. I understand that some players may not like this as they want to play their build in the way they want and not have to adapt/react/change play style as much as cloak forces them to do, but I like that challenge.

So all that said, I guess no I don’t think cloak really needs a specific direct drawback above and beyond how it already integrates into the game.

PvP_Exploiter

What's the counter to Streak?

DrSlaughtr

Another thing you guys are completely ignoring is that I can't get within 30 meters of a guard without being pulled from stealth. The only way to get past them is to STAY IN SHADOWY. If you put a dumb cooldown on this one skill then I'm not getting inside a keep or getting near a resource.

Likewise I'm not getting close enough to attack players, as even the base detection radius will pull me out of sneak.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.

1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.

There was and still is no "counter" to wings. The reason why it was nerfed is because it made a class already with ridiculous mitigation be able to be nigh invulnerable to ranged attacks while also dealing damage back. Bringing that up in this instance isn't a fair comparison. The two other classes with similar skills are also how pretty much in line with wings because they were all ridiculous. They essentially were giving you the same level of protection as spell wall while being spammable.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It suspends all DoTs too. There’s just a lot of power packed into 1 skill that has no drawbacks.

100% instant invisibility and stealth
A likely crit
Suspending of all DoTs no matter how many

At significant cost. Haunting Curse lasts 12 seconds. That's at minimum 3 hits of shadowy. Failure to be in shadowy disguise for every explosion means I'm revealed and quickly killed.

That's 3780 mag x 3 = 11,340 Magicka just to keep from dying. I don't mean just from the dot, though even that is enough to kill my NB. That's also to defend against direct damage hitting me at the same time.

Meanwhile every other class can either competely ignore this dot or just block and heal for MUCH less mag or stamina cost.

So if you really think over 11 thousand mag isn't a fair counter to a dot like haunting curse, then we're at an impass. That's over half my Magicka pool which I'm also using for channeled acceleration or race against time to escape, plus other mag skills.

But hey let's say we're talking about shorter dot. Power of light for example. That's at least twice I have to hit shadowy at around 8k mag. Meanwhile every other class can heal through all the incoming damage for less than half the cost.

Every class has an ability that bones me and these are abilities you're already running. Templar sweeps and jabs can cheese the "direct damage" requirement by simply being spammed in the area. Wardens, DKs, Sorcs, and Necros also all have at least one class skill that can drag me out.

Just seems like these threads are always about players not wanting to be inconvenienced to have to defend against and kill my NB. Like it or not there is a rogue class that's built around sneak just like every other mmo. It'd be pretty boring if pvp was just the same 3 builds dueling like they're standing in Riften. Every suggestion in this thread and others would competely remove the class from pvp play.

Look at all the forms of mitigation they added in deadlands. Increase to Battle Spirit. Easy sources for major and minor protection. Improved detect skills. Overturned solo and group heals due to the new damage scaling. All these changes were made because last June during midyear the forums blew up over NB bombers.

What do we get now? Necro bombers that are significantly more effective at wiping zergs on their own. Ball groups that are better built against dark convergence but were always more vulnerable to NB bombers now don't have to worry about them. DKs and templars than can crit heal from near death to 100% in one to two seconds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

What's the counter to Streak?

Gap Closers are certainly the best counter if a sorc is trying to escape. If you get stunned by streak, break free and try to stun or immobilize the sorc. He is likely a ranged player that is now in melee range. Dont let them escape. After the break free, a roll dodge is not required, but its a good idea. A frag is probably coming at your head. If you get cursed, roll dodge is also a smart move. You may get stunned, but if you roll after the curse, the mages wrath and frags will likely miss. Sorcs are probably the easiest AP in cyro right now.

Amottica

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.

1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.

That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.

Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime

Actually, they do hold water very well. My first point is of course the most important as it is part of the deliberate game design. Players prove this very well proven every day in Cyrodiil making it very difficult to negating the use of the NB cloaking. Players effectively use this every day because they chose to make it part of their build or ensure some players in the group use counters and just like everything else in PvP spent the time and effort to learn how to use the counter effectively.

Again, it is a choice to use any of the numerous hard and soft counters or not. Choosing to not use any of them within a group (or running solo) in no way suggests there is a problem with the skill.

Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.

ADarklore

So, let's ruin a perfectly useful skill for PVE players simply because some PVP players don't want to learn counters?!? One of the main reasons I love my NB is that I can CHOOSE when to fight or when to simply cloak past enemies to accomplish my goals. Taking this away would pretty much negate many people reasons for even playing a NB in solo PVE.

Thecompton73

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

The amount of counters to shadowy disguise compared to literally any other skill in the game is insane. Because you dont even have to run one of the 'real' counters.

Impulse, spin to win, jabs, that sorc skill with the circular aoe around them. . . There are tons that skillfully used are remarably good at countering cloak.

[snip]

If you really think cloak is so op go play a nightblade for awhile.

A few things will happen

First: youll learn some very creative ways to counter cloak because trust me some people are really good at hunting blades

Second: assuming you reach a reasonable level of effectiveness, youll start to appreciate the mischeivous and high risk/low reward playstyle that stealth blades play. Because trust me stealthblades arent top teir builds. They are good at killing particular types of players and not much else. But the playstyle is fun and we have as much of a right to enjoy our brand of pvp as you do.

Theres more but seriously, go play one and get a new perspective. Youll be surprised.

[edited for minor baiting]

People getting destroyed by someone really good at using a class and then complaining about that class even though 9/10 people using it aren't nearly as effective has led to many unnecessary nerfs over the years.

Dojohoda

If you have never pvped on a nightblade, give it a try. It is not as easy as it looks.

DrSlaughtr

Dojohoda wrote: »

If you have never pvped on a nightblade, give it a try. It is not as easy as it looks.

This 1000%. It isn't easy. Most people aren't very good on it and those people prey on players in vulnerable states, such as on siege, or are not very experienced themselves. The really good NB players only play NB (or at least a vast majority of the time) and have spent many months of game time being great at it. If you die to them, don't take it personally. Ask others for help. I'm always available via DM.

GarfieId

Amottica wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.

1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.

That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.

Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime

...

Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.

Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)

Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.

Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.

So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.

Amottica

GarfieId wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.

1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.

That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.

Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime

...

Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.

Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)

Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.

Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.

So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.

That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.

I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.

GarfieId

Amottica wrote: »

GarfieId wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a drawback to cloak built into the game. Actually two drawbacks.

1. Any player has the means to pull someone out of cloak utilizing various means. This is called a counter which is what brings balance to the use of the skill. It is a choice to utilize one of these skills and figure out how to use it well. Choosing not to use one or figure out how to use one is not justification for a nerf.
2. To keep cloak going requires magicka sustain which comes at a cost of damage-dealing stats or other stats.

Of course, the first note has the biggest weight. My main guild explained this to me early in my PvP experience and I can attest it works well.

Not trying to start an argument but your 2 drawbacks don’t really hold water.

1. DK still had their wings clipped awhile back because a lot of people where crying on the forums about them. Even though like cloak there where skills you could slot and use in order to counter wings but again people didn’t want to slot, and use said skills. Mainly Magsorc and Magblade’s.
2. Just because a skill has a cost doesn’t make it a disadvantage as most skills in the game have a cost.

That said cloak is a polarizing skill. Either you love or hate. Little room in between each side. Cloak can be a Nightblades greatest strength or biggest weakness. Run in a player that knows how to use it effectively and it is frustrated to fight against but not impossible same as DK wings used to be. Run in the same type of player who knows how to play against a cloaking NB and the same NB will be frustrated too.

Stay safe everyone and enjoy Springtime

...

Also, the DK skill change is rather irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the NB skill. That is a point that does not hold water in this discussion. Also, as another pointed out, there was no counter to wings where there are numerous counters to NGs cloak.

Actually I think it does "hold water", while I do personally think cloak is extremely easy to counter and have no problem with it. (it's an L2P issue, when I was new I thought it was really hard to deal with and that was when stamblades were meta)

Wings costed 4k mag blocked 3 projectiles cloak costed 3k and dodge all projectiles and dots. saying things like wings had no counter is just a lie, crushing shock ignored it, LA procd it. All you had to do was time your burst around it, not to mention it only worked against ranged targets, fighting melee it was a dead skill.

Similar to cloak it had counters, you just have to slot them / play around them sadly for wings it changed (which in my eyes was a class defining ability) for, imo, the worse.

So to I think it's fair to compare these 2 abilities as they both have similar functions in giving a class a unique defensive buff.

That is great that you do. However, the fact that wings lacked any counter while cloak has numerous hard and soft counters does make using that as an example rather inappropriate as it is the situation is not comparable.

I do wonder why you edited out my comments about the deliberate game design of having counters for skills this and how everyday players prove how effective this system and the counters are successful. After all, that is a slam dunk that the suggested change is not warranted.

If you bothered to read it you can see I clearly labeled plenty of counters to old wings, counters do not have to exist by abilities/consumables themselves, if you know about game design then I'm sure you know about not holding the players hand at all times, letting them figure out buy themselves.
I edited out your other comments because I wasn't talking about those points, hence the ... if anyone wanted to read the post they could go back to the rest of those points.