EF321 wrote: »

I think it is part of their "procs don't proc procs" thing. Enchants are considered to be procs IIRC.

Do you have a link to where this is mentioned because this is new with patch and there's zero mention in the notes?

85flyingbrick_ESO wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

I think it is part of their "procs don't proc procs" thing. Enchants are considered to be procs IIRC.

Do you have a link to where this is mentioned because this is new with patch and there's zero mention in the notes?

Itemization -> General
"...trigger other sets when the core rule is that procs should not trigger other procs."

As for enchants being procs, it's in one of the previous patch notes, from 2021 or late 2020.


Before this patch a ton of sets that I've tested would proc other set as long as condition is met (i.e. other set dos not specifically mention "on ability"). I haven't tested all possible interactions, but enough to say that this "rule" was not a thing before this patch.

I did some tests during PTS and the only set that was procing "on damage" sets was Leeching plate. Don't know if that was fixed.

The second quote has nothing to do with the issue, as a glyph is not a set (especially not a set that applies buffs or crowd control), so a glyph proccing EC/Encratis is not “a set…triggering another set.”

If this is intentional, they have created a serious issue in which these sets are no longer support sets but “DK support sets” — or in which they are support sets and nothing but a DK can use them effectively, which hinders other classes’ abilities to actually perform support roles with these sets. I tank on both DK and templar with Encratis and EC, and the message this is sending is: what’s a templar tank?

virtus753 wrote: »

The second quote has nothing to do with the issue, as a glyph is not a set (especially not a set that applies buffs or crowd control), so a glyph proccing EC/Encratis is not “a set…triggering another set.”

The key phrase is this: "core rule is that procs should not trigger other procs.", it is not limited to just support/cc sets or just sets in general.

virtus753 wrote: »

If this is intentional, they have created a serious issue in which these sets are no longer support sets but “DK support sets” — or in which they are support sets and nothing but a DK can use them effectively, which hinders other classes’ abilities to actually perform support roles with these sets. I tank on both DK and templar with Encratis and EC, and the message this is sending is: what’s a templar tank?

Just use an inferno staff.

Jack-0 wrote: »

This has surely, surely got to be an oversight from ZOS - how is a dk even going to proc the shock part of EC if a shock glyph won’t do it?

Just use a lightning staff.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

If this is intentional, they have created a serious issue in which these sets are no longer support sets but “DK support sets” — or in which they are support sets and nothing but a DK can use them effectively, which hinders other classes’ abilities to actually perform support roles with these sets. I tank on both DK and templar with Encratis and EC, and the message this is sending is: what’s a templar tank?

Just use an inferno staff.

There’s no “just” about that. If you use that on the back bar, it requires giving up any chance at using an ice staff to cc and apply Minor Brittle. It also means you can’t use magicka to block on the destro bar and don’t get extra blocking mitigation then. ZOS clearly intended the ice staff to be the destro used for tanking, and using anything else punishes tanks by barring them from the advantages reserved for ice. This requires giving up all those advantages.

Or it requires giving up a 1h&s to double bar staves, as mentioned above, which requires giving up the additional resistances and stats of sword and board, as well as specialized sets designed for tanking (Puncturing Remedy/Void Bash), all on top of the 1h&s passives (blocking mitigation, movement speed while bracing, extra mitigation against projectile damage, etc.).

Either way, that’s an incredible amount to sacrifice to proc one set.

The fact is that you can still proc Encratis on a templar tank. No one said otherwise. But to do so, you are now going to have to make sacrifices that DKs do not, because DKs have several class tanking/support abilities that you would already expect to see on a DK bar rather than the contortion act described above. And that is the issue.

Scalding Rune is probably the only actual viable way left to proc Encratis on a templar tank now. And while the sacrifice is lesser than using a different type of staff, requiring a purely damage skill to take the place of a skill that helps provide an advantage to tanking or improves the group utility of that tank (like a buff for the whole group or debuff on the target) still means that a templar who wants to run Encratis is no longer going to be as useful to the group as they were before this change. Meanwhile, DKs continue to be as effective as before, since their class-specific ways of proccing Encratis remain perfectly viable.

Along with all that is the fact that if that first patch note quoted above is meant to cover this, then it is simply inadequate. It would mean that the developers effectively buried this change in an extremely vague note in which they failed to alert us to which sets were changed, failed to acknowledge the enormity of the change in terms of these sets’ viabilities, failed to acknowledge that the impact of those changes was severe on non-DK classes while leaving DK mostly just as viable, and failed to justify that imbalance. All of that is a disservice to the community and does not align with their stated desires for gameplay design or their promises of improved communication, as it denied us the opportunity to have these discussions and give feedback on the PTS forums, which is what should have happened before this change went live.

This was not some exploit whose fix needed to be couched in the vaguest terms possible so it wouldn’t give players ideas. This was a major change to the key way in which certain support sets functioned, which they will have known from how much players relied on these mechanisms to use these sets across classes. Failing to be explicit about this change and acknowledge its impact in the combat preview and in the patch notes is not acceptable, especially when it affected classes’ viability to use key sets unequally.

@WrathOfInnos these are definitely work-a-rounds I've seen discussed. I think a lot of the frustration here is, once again, lack of ZOS communication. Same old story.

jecks33 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

If this is intentional, they have created a serious issue in which these sets are no longer support sets but “DK support sets” — or in which they are support sets and nothing but a DK can use them effectively, which hinders other classes’ abilities to actually perform support roles with these sets. I tank on both DK and templar with Encratis and EC, and the message this is sending is: what’s a templar tank?

Just use an inferno staff.

Jack-0 wrote: »

This has surely, surely got to be an oversight from ZOS - how is a dk even going to proc the shock part of EC if a shock glyph won’t do it?

Just use a lightning staff.

Just learn how a tank works and what is his job

Maybe just use different sets.

I seriously hope these changes are part of a general push toward a proper "support DPS" role instead of the current situation where tanks and healers are expected to devote their build to buffing DPS instead of actually tanking and healing.