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Please decouple NPC reactions and broken quests from Achievements (save the game from Sheogorath!)

Kesstryl
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Dear ZOS,

NPCs and certain achievement only quests are broken on PTS, and it detracts from immersion in your game world. Non-repeatable quests that are flagged achievement only will never be done again on alts, not just museum quest only, but others mentioned in the Account Wide Achievements bugs thread. NPCs are reacting to alts who've never done quests as if they already completed them. Please consider how NPC dialogue and reactions, and missing quests, impact how many of us play, and ruins the Elder Scrolls experience we came here to get. Please move NPC reactions to fire from quest completion and not from achievements! Please move achievement only quests to the quest log so each alt can complete them. I'll repost how I play my characters (this was left in the Account Wide Achievements feedback thread) but it needs to be said again (modified to focus on current topic):

The original Elder Scrolls solo games have always been an RPG first and foremost. The single player games were not just games to beat, they provided a world you could immerse into, where you could suspend your disbelief and actually feel like a person in that world trying to save it from whatever danger threatened Nirn. Elder Scrolls Online had a rocky beginning, but over time, you got it right, and it really felt like an Elder Scrolls game. The best part about it was, I wasn't limited to just one character doing the story, I could create multiple characters and they all didn't have to do the same story. I have one character, my woodelf Kesstryl, who completed Coldharbor and is the one I consider The Vestige. My other characters are heroes in other parts of the world. My Nord Reynild is the hero of Western Skyrim and Markarth. My Argonian Talks With Trees is the hero of Morrowind. My Altmer Malatunir, an Ayleid descendant, is the hero of Blackwood and the Deadlands. He also saved the souls of argonians and righted the wrongs of his ancestors in the Murkmire story. My Khajiit Maila is a master thief. My Breton Luceya is a lawful good healer hired by adventurers to keep them safe through evil places (basically my dungeon and trials healer). My Dunmer Varla helped save Sotha Sil and the Clockwork City.  Gabrien, my breton Necromancer, saw the error of his ways and used his power to save the Khajiit in Elsweyr.

Each character played through different content because that was how their story unfolded.  My characters are not extensions of me, the player, they're people living in different places in Tamriel rising to the occasion. I don't want to be reminded that they are just tools I'm using to play a game. I want them to remain individual people in Tamriel with their own histories and stories. I really didn't want to lose individual character achievement tracking, but that's not the reason I write this. I don't want to look at a map in a place Reynild has never been to and see it already explored because Kesstryl was already there. I don't want my healer Luceya to have random NPCs have conversations about her as if she's a master thief because Maila put that achievement on my account. I don't want to lose my second chance at talking with Count Ravenwatch at the end of the Markath story for his final thoughts and be welcomed into House Ravenwatch on an altbecause Reynild was the first to have spoken to him and gotten the achievement (currently with Account Wide Achievements, that quest is not repeatable on alts). I don't want NPCs in Western Skyrim to randomly talk about Varla as she passes by, who's never been there, as if she is the one who saved them and not Reynild. I don't want Gabrien to be thanked for stopping the Planemeld when it was Kesstryl who did that. I don't want my argonian to be hailed as hero of Elsweyr when it was Gabrien who slayed dragons and set the correct princess on the throne. I certainly don't want any of my characters to see two princess lap dancing on the throne of Elsweyr. Do you see what this mess is doing to my characters? Do you see how it's ruining the game for me?

Many of us are old long time TES fans who want to continue to have an Elder Scrolls experience in your game. Please fix these things so we can continue to immerse ourselves in Tamriel, and have a coherent game world for our alts to live in. Please assure us that you don't plan to leave the game in this state once PTS goes live. Please have fixes in the pipeline so we can have our Elder Scrolls experience in an Elder Scrolls game. Please give us old time Elder Scrolls fans hope and something to hold onto.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_MattFiror @ anyone who will listen


Edited for clarity
Edited by Kesstryl on March 2, 2022 8:59PM
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  • Kesstryl
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    I KNOW the code is there for NPCs to be tied to quest stages. I was on the EU PTS tonight (my account is NA so not much to test until I get quests done and achievements unlocked). I recreated my character that played through Greymoor (I can never get enough of the Ravenwatch gang), and started Greymoor on PTS. I got as far as the Queen being murdered, and not long after NPCs showed up in Solitude to have conversations among themselves about the Queen's murder. Right after I noticed that, I brought a brand new level 3 character to Solitude, no quests, and the NPCs were not there. So NPC reactions are already tied to quest stages in game. The code exists. Can we please get assurance that any that are tied to achievements are being moved or will be moved quest side?
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  • opaj
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    I agree. For me as a player, this is the highest priority issue that needs to be addressed with the new achievement system.
  • Raevenglass
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    I could not agree more. At the very least, please make NPC reactions dependent on character completion of quests, not account-wide.
  • Enodoc
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    I would like to think that the whole "dialogue reactions based on achievements" is a bug (or, more accurately, an oversight) that will be fixed eventually, given that we know quest completion is tracked per-character, and dialogue can be conditioned on quest stage.

    Are there any examples of these "achievement-only quests"? I've never noticed any quest that is locked out based on completion of an achievement, rather than completion of some other quest.
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Please move achievement only quests to the quest log so each alt can complete them.
    Edited by Enodoc on March 2, 2022 4:46PM
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  • tomofhyrule
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Are there any examples of these "achievement-only quests"? I've never noticed any quest that is locked out based on completion of an achievement, rather than completion of some other quest.
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Please move achievement only quests to the quest log so each alt can complete them.

    I assume this is things like Choixith, Melina Cassel, the Adoring Admirer, and the like. They have no quests and their dialogue is tracked solely by achievements, so all of them are broken.

    Also including the final epilogue of the Dark Heart of Skyrim storyline, so it’s not a small thing.
  • kringled_1
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    Besides the museum quests, the other quest-like content that is tracked by achievement are mostly the episodic npc encounters like Choixth in Summerset and Murkmire, Melina Cassell in the reach, the adoring admirer in Blackwood. The Blackwood bog dog pet is also tracked only by achievement, but I'm not sure how repeatable it was even on live.
    It's not a huge amount of content, but it's there.
    And yes, many npc interactions that are currently triggered from achievements can in principle be moved to looking at quest completions. I'm just a bit pessimistic about it as almost none of this has been addressed in this pts cycle, even though it's all issues that are easily anticipated even by players let alone developers. There probably are also some npc interactions and quest triggers that are linked to achievements that don't have a 1:1 corresponding quest completion, and those will take even longer if ever to fix.
  • Kesstryl
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    I would like to think that the whole "dialogue reactions based on achievements" is a bug (or, more accurately, an oversight) that will be fixed eventually, given that we know quest completion is tracked per-character, and dialogue can be conditioned on quest stage.

    Are there any examples of these "achievement-only quests"? I've never noticed any quest that is locked out based on completion of an achievement, rather than completion of some other quest.
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Please move achievement only quests to the quest log so each alt can complete them.

    Just go to the PTS Bug reporting thread, you will find your examples.
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  • Dragonlord573
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    Wait, does this mean that Abnur, Lyris, and Sai may know my alts even if I never did the main quest on those characters? If that ends up happening that is a huge oversight.
  • etchedpixels
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    And also lots of background dialogue is broken this way
    Too many toons not enough time
  • Hymzir
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    I already posted about this in length in another thread, but it is so important that it needs to be repeated until ZOS responds to it.

    Narrative coherence matters.

    This being an MMO, there are already tons of "compromises" one needs to accept. Like standing in queue to kill some quest specific boss, doing your best to filter out all the other "main characters and heroes." i.e. other players doing the exact same thing at the exact same time.

    Another one I find really annoying is to try to find a lull in player traffic to do something, 'cause you actually want to hear the dialogue and scenes play out, before the next throng of "SKIP!" crowd shows up and gives you quest completion by simply being in their vicinity.

    That is the downside of an MMO, and I can deal with that. The social aspect the experience offers balance that out.

    I can even turn a blind eye to the fact that most people in the world - that is the players - are touting outlandish costumes and riding around on laser ponies, jumping around doing crazy... well you know what I mean.

    I recently managed to finally watch the movie Freeguy, and while the movie has its hits and misses, the one thing it managed to capture quite well, is the insanity of an MMO world when seen from the point of view of someone who actually lives in that world, and isn't just a player looking for some fun and distraction from their own dreary existence in the actual real world.

    Sometimes it can be quite difficult to filter all that nonsense, and to try and immerse in the world and its stories, but it was something one could do. Especially if one logged on during the wee-hours of the morning when most of the zones were deserted. You could actually immerse yourself in your character and his story. I often went first person mode, and turned off most of my HUD, and just had a regular old RPG experience.

    Going forward however, if this thing goes live as it currently exists on the PTS, that will become way harder. Way harder than it'll be worth to deal with. The gameworld no longer sees your character, but your account and responds and acts as if it was interacting with the totality of your, the players, actions within the game, and not a specific character with a specific background.

    That is unacceptable from an RPG point of view, and while this thing is an MMO, it was also sold to me as an RPG. And I bought it as an RPG first and foremost. The MMO aspect was just a bonus on top that added a different dimension to the experience, and I was quite happy to engage with this extra aspect. In fact, before picking up ESO in 2014, the last MMO I played was around 2005.

    The bottom line is, that if this goes live as is, then that is it for me. Whether or not, I will continue playing this game, is dependant on how this thing is resolved. If it goes live as is, then I will stop. There are other games out there, and new ones are constantly being released. While I have lot of attachment to ESO, thanks to it being set in TES universe and all, and all the great memories I have from playing the game, and the people and the community with whom I play, it simply will no longer offer me an experience that is worth my time. If fixed somehow, then I would quite happily keep drudging along on my own pace regardless of how flashy the laser ponies become, as long as I can still retain narrative cohesion of each of my characters. Take that away, and simply put: I'm done with ESO.
    Edited by Hymzir on March 4, 2022 4:51PM
  • zaria
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    I would like to think that the whole "dialogue reactions based on achievements" is a bug (or, more accurately, an oversight) that will be fixed eventually, given that we know quest completion is tracked per-character, and dialogue can be conditioned on quest stage.

    Are there any examples of these "achievement-only quests"? I've never noticed any quest that is locked out based on completion of an achievement, rather than completion of some other quest.
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Please move achievement only quests to the quest log so each alt can complete them.
    Quest stages are only traced for quests in the quest quest list, All other quests are started or finished.

    Yes its some stored references like npc might react to quest decisions, One npc in Reaper March is nagging about how I let an Khajiit lady remind in the village after she betrayed them, well that was back after launch and I was VR 1, yes keep nag me after 8 years :)

    I assume that the achievement table in the database also store all sort of character progress data like quests done, skyshards collected and locations including wayshrines found so they show on the map.
    Its also store the more achievement style elements like dungeons cleared and number of mudcrabs killed.

    The account wide achievements moves the achievements to an another table who is account based.
    The problem is if we can not do stuff on alts or we got weird stuff like npc the character has never seen greet you as an old friend.

    On potential real bug is Divayth Fyr uses your achievements as reason for wanting you to join him, from finishing the main quest to on an alt who had done the thief guild and dark brotherhood quests but not much else of noteworthy stuff his argument was that I was an silencer in the dark brotherhood.
    Has anybody started the CWC quest line on the PTS?
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • alberichtano
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    The question is if they CAN do anything about any of this. See, coding different reactions to different alts would cost DB space. Which is exactly what they are trying to clean up, apparently. The achievements in and of themselves would hardly by that much bigger than what would have to replace them to keep track of all the quest-stages that have been done, so basically it, achievements that is, would have to be replaced by something of a similar size, meaning no real gain. So I very much doubt that anything of the sort will happen. But then I admit I am no DB expert.
  • Kesstryl
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    zaria wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    I would like to think that the whole "dialogue reactions based on achievements" is a bug (or, more accurately, an oversight) that will be fixed eventually, given that we know quest completion is tracked per-character, and dialogue can be conditioned on quest stage.

    Are there any examples of these "achievement-only quests"? I've never noticed any quest that is locked out based on completion of an achievement, rather than completion of some other quest.
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Please move achievement only quests to the quest log so each alt can complete them.
    Quest stages are only traced for quests in the quest quest list, All other quests are started or finished.

    Yes its some stored references like npc might react to quest decisions, One npc in Reaper March is nagging about how I let an Khajiit lady remind in the village after she betrayed them, well that was back after launch and I was VR 1, yes keep nag me after 8 years :)

    I assume that the achievement table in the database also store all sort of character progress data like quests done, skyshards collected and locations including wayshrines found so they show on the map.
    Its also store the more achievement style elements like dungeons cleared and number of mudcrabs killed.

    The account wide achievements moves the achievements to an another table who is account based.
    The problem is if we can not do stuff on alts or we got weird stuff like npc the character has never seen greet you as an old friend.

    On potential real bug is Divayth Fyr uses your achievements as reason for wanting you to join him, from finishing the main quest to on an alt who had done the thief guild and dark brotherhood quests but not much else of noteworthy stuff his argument was that I was an silencer in the dark brotherhood.
    Has anybody started the CWC quest line on the PTS?

    Divayth Fyr is one of my favorite characters, and I'd like to see this fixed so my alts have narrative cohesion with him. I can try to get CWC in before PTS goes down, but I don't know if I can. I don't have a EU account and had to start from scratch. I have two alts piggy backing off each other to test what little I can. None of them did Dark Brotherhood, or Thieves Guild, or the Main Quest so I don't know how good my testing will be. If he ends up being bugged on live, we all definitely need to send bug reports and post it in the bug reports forum. It's beginning to look like our nagging is going to be the only way things will get fixed going forward if the official patch doesn't show them addressed in the release in a couple weeks.
    Edited by Kesstryl on March 6, 2022 3:47PM
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  • Kesstryl
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    This was posted today in the feedback thread when asked if anything was different after the PTS was patched this week, so all things are still broken, including NPC dialogue and reactions. ZOS you must get these things fixed!

    .
    Jaraal wrote: »
    I don't have an EU account, so I'm wondering if any EU folks have checked to see what effect the two day PTS maintenance has on account wide achievements? Did they roll it back, fix the bugged quests, fix the map autocompletion issues, etc?

    As far as I can tell all museum quests are reset so characters who had completed them will have to redo them; ironically the achievement (account-wide) is done if any one charcter has completed it. For museum quests that give a mural or factotum, for example, those seem repeatable so you can still earn mulitple pieces, although I've not gone through one to completion to confirm this. Thieves Guild Kari's hit list is an exception: the hit-list is reset but you don't get the advancement of the thieves guild skill-line on subsequent characters as you do on live - so get those done on alts to boost the skill-line to 3 over the weekend if continuing to play. This latter was tested and confirmed.

    Delves and maps are unchanged - they initially look dark if not done but, when you approach auto-turn white and show as completed. The delve boss auto-spawn for first-time characters is still broken so 5+ minute wait if you see any point in grabbing anything other than a skyshard from a delve.

    As far as I could tell, NPC reactions remained tied to account-wide so a neophyte 3rd level soul-shriven ragman is still treated is as the saviour of the known universe. I didn't check broken stros m'kai quest so no idea on that one.

    When this hits live, I advise anyone who finds any bugs to use the slash bug command to report them, including NPC dialogue trees and NPC reactions to your alts walking by. Anything else found not reported on PTS needs to be reported on live. I don't know how ZOS can let this broken patch go through like this.
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