Also bow is pretty hard to use competitively in pvp for anything besides ganking.

Bow is pretty lackluster as it is in terms of meta-pvp. You wont see many use a bow for high end pvp outside bombard spam in a ballgroup or means to get major expedition for a ganker (and snipers).

Huh? I use bows as backbar weapons on my PvP alts, and I really can't say that they are OP in any respect. They rarely have range enough in sieges, and the damage is hardly impressive either (although I am a fairly lousy PvP-er, so that may diminish my effectiveness). What kills me in range combat is, however, rarely bows, but proc sets or ultis, or siege engines.

But then I am just one person and hardly a whole statistic.

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Bombard, 20 m
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/bombard

Magnum Shot, 22 m
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/magnum-shot

Neither are 28 m, but both are above the 15 m of Destructive Touch.

You didn't read it correctly. I said about an ability having instant CC, high damage and range all together which was nerfed along time ago. Yet these same characteristics are STILL present in Bow abilities.

Both needs to be toned down to the levels of Destructive Touch.

techprince wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Bombard, 20 m
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/bombard

Magnum Shot, 22 m
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/magnum-shot

Neither are 28 m, but both are above the 15 m of Destructive Touch.

You didn't read it correctly. I said about an ability having instant CC, high damage and range all together which was nerfed along time ago. Yet these same characteristics are STILL present in Bow abilities.

Both needs to be toned down to the levels of Destructive Touch.

Your original post hinted that both skills had a 28m range. They don't. Mangum Shot's 22m range is to counter gap closers and the 20m range on arrow spray being 20 was when snipe had a 20m dead range and a snare was needed to get enemies in that radius out of it. Even without that dead range existing there ins't a need for those skills to have to be the same, as Clench has either a knockback, maim, aoe, and status effects on every cast. Or you can morph it up to 28m, outranging the mentioned skills.

As for your argument against aoe roots. I stopped pvping in no small part to the tedium of how most fights became 'run around the rock' fest, and to counter mobility you need skills that counter it.

Clench has a different purpose than arrow spray. One is a single target skill with additional perks based on the element to do some single target things like its knock back or root or aoe damage, the other is an aoe crowd control skill. This fixated mentality that 'all skills must act the same' is the reason why so many builds feel the same. Skills with different purposes should be allowed to act differently, I'm sorry you probably had a few bad run-ins with archers lately, but both arrow spray's mobility debuffing and magnum shots knock back are both skills that are rightfully called for in pvp situations.

It also doesn't change that your initial comment directly stated that 'having DMG+Stun with 28m' while neither have 28m range, arrow spray doesn't have a stun and does standard aoe spammable damage while magnum shot does 70% the damage of snipe, a standard damage spammable. I have always found it odd ZOS decided to have clench give up the dot component since that made the skill into a front loaded damage over time skill which the game has few of, but because clench is undervalue isn't a reason to call out for nerfs on other skills you don't even fully know.

CP5 wrote: »

Clench has a different purpose than arrow spray. One is a single target skill with additional perks based on the element to do some single target things like its knock back or root or aoe damage, the other is an aoe crowd control skill. This fixated mentality that 'all skills must act the same' is the reason why so many builds feel the same. Skills with different purposes should be allowed to act differently, I'm sorry you probably had a few bad run-ins with archers lately, but both arrow spray's mobility debuffing and magnum shots knock back are both skills that are rightfully called for in pvp situations.

It also doesn't change that your initial comment directly stated that 'having DMG+Stun with 28m' while neither have 28m range, arrow spray doesn't have a stun and does standard aoe spammable damage while magnum shot does 70% the damage of snipe, a standard damage spammable. I have always found it odd ZOS decided to have clench give up the dot component since that made the skill into a front loaded damage over time skill which the game has few of, but because clench is undervalue isn't a reason to call out for nerfs on other skills you don't even fully know.

Bombard is an AOE stamina equivalent of Old Frost Reach, Magnum is stamina equivalent of old Flame Reach. Kind of common sense don't you think? Why does an AOE crowd control skill has more range than a single target crowd control skill (Flame Clench)? Where is the sense here?

Dalsinthus wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Bombard, 20 m
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/bombard

Magnum Shot, 22 m
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/magnum-shot

Neither are 28 m, but both are above the 15 m of Destructive Touch.

You didn't read it correctly. I said about an ability having instant CC, high damage and range all together which was nerfed along time ago. Yet these same characteristics are STILL present in Bow abilities.

Both needs to be toned down to the levels of Destructive Touch.

Sure. Reread what you wrote. You didn’t say high damage anywhere in your post or thread title. You said “DMG+Stun with 28 m.”

The damage on these skills is mediocre. They’re both well below my tool tips for spammable skills, including destructive touch.

Destructive Reach didnt have that high direct damage as well. But still it got nerfed just because of Master Weapons. The "High" damage part came with Master Weapons only. So again, if a rule is being applied to one, it should apply to others as well.

CP5 wrote: »

Bombard is more akin to encase or frost blockade, since those are aoe skills.

I´d definetly be down to make bombard comparable to encase - esp the dmg condition.

Or maybe make encase as good as bombard - bc didn´t zos at some point state class abilities should be better than weapon ones?

CP5 wrote: »

Bombard is more akin to encase or frost blockade, since those are aoe skills. Should frost clench have is cost increased to better match bombards aoe based cost? And while flame clench lost its dot to maintain the knockback, it is also a fair bit cheaper than magnum shot. Should it be made more expensive to better reflect magnum shot? You expressed a lack of understanding in your original post, calling for nerfs even when things were explained afterwards. Different skills function differently, don't compare apples to coconuts when you should instead be asking for the flame and shock versions of destructive touch to have more meaningful uses to justify slotting, something which I actually think should happen.

I never expressed my lack of understanding. You assumed it. You are comparing apples with oranges. Frost Blockade is a ground AOE bombard is not. Frost Blockade has low range as well. Big difference there. Frost Blockade doesn't root unless they are chilled. Bombard has no such conditions attached to it. So even if with your logic we compare with frost blockade, bombard is out of place.

Both bombard and magnum shot should have its range reduced to 15m.

CP5 wrote: »

28m range. Neither of them have it. Neither have noteworthy damage. Comparing single target skills to aoe skills, and acting that if two skills share any traits that they should be put into a mold and made the same. Different skills are different, advocate for a buff to flame and shock reach/clench to make them more engaging skills, don't ask for nerfs just because of negative personal experiences by those skills being used for their intended purposes (zoning).

Magnum and Bombard doesn't have any other conditions attached to it. The only way every other magicka characher can successfully immobilise or knockback is with Clench only. You are assuming i had bad experience. You are making alot of things up.

techprince wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

28m range. Neither of them have it. Neither have noteworthy damage. Comparing single target skills to aoe skills, and acting that if two skills share any traits that they should be put into a mold and made the same. Different skills are different, advocate for a buff to flame and shock reach/clench to make them more engaging skills, don't ask for nerfs just because of negative personal experiences by those skills being used for their intended purposes (zoning).

Magnum and Bombard doesn't have any other conditions attached to it. The only way every other magicka characher can successfully immobilise or knockback is with Clench only. You are assuming i had bad experience. You are making alot of things up.

magnum shot used to have a very low range. (10 meters) and apply a 6 meter knockback on the target as well as your character jumping backwards 6 meters. This created 21-22m gap on max range. Where have i seen that value before? Ah yes. Flame clench. 15m range with 6 meter knockback. 21meters of gap created. The cost is also lower.

As far as bombard goes. Yeah it's a relatively useful root/snare. the snare portion will be removed next patch afaik. And you get root immunity. It's also an extremely niche skill, not used often due to the relatively high cost, clunkyness in using and the fact you have to use a bow.

They changed magnum shot for a reason. Right now it knocks back 8 meters with a 22m range. (30 meters of total gap at max).
however , it costs a base 540 stamina more than clench costs magicka. also clench deals comparable damage, AND applies a guaranteed status effect on hit.