Crown Store fairness

ShadowWolf44 · January 2022

Over the years, many people have had one type of issue or another, with the way the Crown store functions, in regards to "drops" from the crates, the worth of the items, etc. Sometimes, you just have people who complain all the time- there are those- they are mostly in the minority.

Then you have people such as myself. I've been buying Crown Crates for over 5 years. Never ONCE have I gotten a "Radiant Apex Award". I'm a loyal player. A faithful player. I help where & when I can. Having the health issues I do, it's not as often as it used to be, sadly. And money? Extremely hard to come by anymore, as well. And in WELL over a thousand crates? Not one. Just recently, after years of saving crown gems, I was finally able to BUY a couple. It's been extremely costly.

Unlike so many in the guilds I'm in, where, if they don't get a "Radiant Apex" reward in 60 crates? THEY get upset. Recently/ 3 people, almost in a row, got one, 2 within 30 crates, the other after 40. Now, people can call me a complainer I guess- except, this is the first time I've posted about this part of the game. In over 5 years. THIS part.

How is this "Fair"? Zos, over the years, keeps talking about making the game "equal"- in combat, in abilities, in class... why is this something, "I just have to deal with"? I pay my money, just like everyone else. Why is it fair that I've NEVER won a single RA reward?

15 Crates tonight- What I got? What I always get- an XP scroll not worth 100 Crowns to myself- but, to "WIN" this? If I wish to have the "Crown Gems"? I only get 33. For a 100 Crown Gem item. Who came up with THIS formula? YOU, the game creators? Tell us it's value is 100 crown gems. So, if we wish to have one? We can either "win" it, or purchase one, with 100 crown gems. But if we "WIN" it? And would rather not use something that last 1/2 the time a normal, less expensive one lasts, even though it's only 100% XP boost, instead of 150%? We have to LOSE 66.333 crown gems to do so, getting just 33 crown gems.

Our "Win"? Actually costs us crown gems.

But allow me to show something even more devious: Of the last 60 crown crates I bought? I "won" one "Apex Reward"- supposedly the 2nd highest thing we can "win". The problem? I already HAD that mount. Was I offered my choice of one of the mounts I don't already have? No. It' automatically stripped me of 266.666 crown gems, and gave me 132. So I did NOT "Win" the mount it said I did, because, bad me, I already have it- So I'm punished for this, by getting LESS than 1/3rd, of what I supposedly just "won".

There's a "Muffin" we can win? Doesn't matter if you "already have one", you still get ALL 400 crown gems for it. Same type prize- Apex, yet we do NOT get "punished" for winning that again. Know what it's like to not have won anything in a long time, something I'd actually like to have had, then see that "Apex" card pop up, and it's a mount... not "Muffin", but I already have it- so it does it's calculations, dividing it in thirds, and it gives ME, the "Winner", THE LOWER 1/3rd 132 crown gems, while the other 2/3rds, 133.3333, (twice), go "back to the house", I guess is how we put it?

It makes you feel... Punished, for "Winning".

The last 60 crates I've gotten? All I keep seeing are "Blue", "rewards". Almost all, already owned. So many things I'd never, in a million years purchase for myself- rarely? Sometimes something I didn't think I'd really like? Finds a useful purpose. But this is rare indeed. I don't need any of these things- so my only other choice? "Cash them in", for a mere pittance of what we're told they're worth. The only "higher" rewards? maybe 1 or 2 purple/gold, in 15 crates- 99% of the time? the purple xp scroll, or the gold one- worth 13 & 33 crown gems respectively, to a person who wishes to have the gems instead-

The total crown gems I received for the 15 crates I just opened, at a cost of nearly $40.00 America dollars? 159, approx. I believe I'm within 2-3, accuracy wise. I also got a "skein Pet". In the 15 crates before this? One, I received around 130- which included 2 gold repeats, of "skein pets", and the other, approx. 180 crown gems. The one before these? Was the Duplicate Apex mount, where I received 132 crown gems, plus approx. another 100, for a total of 232 crown gems.

So, in 60 crates? I "won" approx. 701 Crown Gems. This counts ALL won that could be converted to crown gems- then there were some "Mimic Stones" I kept, approx. 7, 2-3 tattoos, and the Skein pet I'll never use.

3 people in my guild? All won the 2500 Radiant Apex mount, in 40 crates or under.

At this rate, I'm sure people understand how hard it is then, and how expensive, to save up enough crown gems, to get a mount we're told is worth 2500 crown gems. It takes years, if you're poor, as I am. And when you finally do get enough? You might be like myself, and choose from the lesser valued ones, so you can actually have two- So, in reality? They are not REALLY "Radiant Apex" rewards- because that would be the "very special", 2500 crown gem one- which supposedly has special looks, actions, and graphics, no other mount does. Hence it's insanely high price. So I do NOT actually have a "Top" reward- I choose to go the other route, so I could get two 1200's instead.

Most don't have to dig & save, trying to find money for crown crates, where most things are already owned- just so they can get minuscule amounts of crown gems, (at 1/3rd.. less, actually, of what we're TOLD these "prizes" are worth), while missing out on so many other things they'd dearly wish to have, just so they can get ONE "reward"- the very best one- or... for two, lesser ones.

Again, how is this "fair"?

In the end, it will mainly be these people, who know nothing of having to endure such a thing, who will come and attack me on this- it's happened many times. They are never told to stop or be stopped from doing so.

It's never really discussed, as people used to do- because people such as myself, are few & far between. Best to just attack us into being silent once more, than to find answers to this extremely unfair practice.

Because most people DO win. They DO get to experience the joy of winning something special- even if only rarely. However, if you reversed the situation? You can bet everything you own, & ever will own, they'd be posting much more fiercely than I.

I've been told that things like this can be construed as "conspiracy theories". However, I don't see how this can be- since the proof is their, for the GMs to see. I have two RA mounts, the lesser versions- purchased with my saved up crown gems. Period. I've never won a single RA reward, in my entire time playing and purchasing crates- If I'm lying? Boot me from the game. You must be able to check the history, which will prove me accurate. Please, do so.

As I first began, I've never posted in this fashion, on this subject, this entire time. I've had some other, similar issues- where I quite literally have PROOF- screenshots & video, of the issues I was posting on- None wanted them. Something I never understood- So I just never bothered with this.

But it has become so bad of late? I had to.

$160.00. Used to by 8.. that's EIGHT video games- ENTIRE GAMES. Spent on Crown crates here, to get, in the end- 701 crown gems. This took me about 9-10 months to save up to get. I also try to use gold? But I can't make gold like other people in this game- I don't complain about this- it's just another thing I have to deal with however- I don't even talk about this one. But at this rate, you can see why it takes so long, just to have an ATTEMPT at winning a RA mount. double that time? 20 months, and the CGs? that's still only 1402.

The "Endeavor" system? Was a nice addition. And will be the only way I'll ever be able to finally get my 2500 Radiant Apex mount. One. And that's still at least a few months off.

Games don't last forever. Having to sit around, watching other players with their RA mounts, when I work just as hard, but usually far harder, than most others do, just to get a couple of lower RA mounts, after more than 5 years? Just isn't right.

Most? Won't even bother to read this post. They'll skim it, take what they feel they can attack with, and do so. Because this isn't happening to them. And if it's only happening to a few people? Why not just silence them, bully them into never talking about it again- so the problem just "goes away", right?

Or, maybe they'll just decide to get rid of me altogether- after being a loyal, hard-working, ESO-loving player, from the very start of the series. Then they'll not have to deal with me posting the truth anymore, as well. Right?

I just can't do it anymore. It's wrong. I've tried the very best I could, done all I could think of, while never saying a word about this here- only filed maybe 2 reports on this specific issue- it just never changes as they say it will- you know, "it will all eventually balance out". It's been more than 5 years. How much longer am I supposed to wait, for this "balance" to occur?

I've invested so much into this game, trusting and hoping for this so-called "balancing out," to take place. Yet, nothing.

Games don't last forever.

May take me a bit to respond- but to all honest responses, with real intent on solutions, and not attacks? I will do my best to get back to you.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

Mushroomancer · January 2022

My goodness, this is so hard to follow it gave me a headache. I get you are venting, but my god, 90% of this is unnecessary rambling.

From what I could gather I believe you are convinced there's some sort of RNG manipulation against you? There isn't, it's RNG, it's completely random. And being a "loyal customer" doesn't increase your odds in any form of RNG, period.
Also, you talk about "ZOS making the game equal" or something? In what way would that entail random rewards from a loot box system, when they are clearly talking about gameplay, skill gap balance and class usage?
Bottom line is, the system is not supposed to be "fair", it's gambling, in it's purest form, it's sheer luck. If you win, good for you, you get a bunch of digital goods with no actual monetary value, if you lose, you got played. Also, it's not supposed to "reward" people for good behaviour or any other societal variable like that, again, it's gambling, not charity or an award.
I will agree that the gems you get in return for rewards you already have are pocket change, but guess what? That's the point, it's designed so that you keep spending and see the little gems counter go up, in the hope that one day, maybe, you will be able to directly purchase that one thing you want.

To be honest, if this is affecting you in this way, and you feel a need to gamble your saving away, which is what seems like you are doing, with all your talk of not having that much money, but gambling it away anyways, I think you genuinely might need to seek help, of the professional kind. Gambling can ruin your life, big time, and if it's pathological it's not a joke. Of course seeking some sort of response from the company responsible for the gambling system itself isn't bound to get you very far. They are the very ghouls that are shaking you down for money, why would they care?

SkaraMinoc · January 2022

ShadowWolf44 wrote: »

3 people in my guild? All won the 2500 Radiant Apex mount, in 40 crates or under.

1 in 2000 chance to win the 2500 gem Radiant Apex mount. (source)

1 in 400 chance to win any Radiant Apex mount.

You have a 1 in 50 chance of winning an Apex mount. Here's the official odds.

whitecrow · January 2022

I agree that they should give you the full value in gems if you get a repeat of a unique collectible.

Six years of buying at least 4 crates per season and I haven't gotten a radiant apex yet either, although I've gotten a handful of regular apex (and been quite happy with them).

SickleCider · February 2022

I think you're perceiving more wealth and luck with this system than there actually is. More people are poor and low income than you'd think. Based on my own observations, most people don't have RA mounts of any kind. Each season I'm seeing the same handful of people flexing in populated areas.

I know they spend grotesque amounts of money. I have lots of RA mounts myself, and I'm going to be honest, I have a compulsive spending problem.

I've also been very poor, so I KNOW it sucks to see "everyone" with stuff you don't have.

Advice:
1. Perspective shift. Think about why it's so important to have one of these arbitrarily expensive mounts. Is it something you NEED, is it something that will make you HAPPY, or do you want it because you feel like you're missing out?

3. Patience. I'd say, in your situation, stop spending money. Look up the radiant apexes and figure out which one is your heart's desire. It'll take you a few months to get 16k Seals, you said, but it often takes that long for RAs to rotate back anyway. If you wait for the one you really want, I guarantee you'll be happier with it. Put that money in savings, instead.

3. Don't let others put you down or make you feel like you're lacking. For most of my ESO career, I used the Nightmare Courser and I was really happy with it. But, there were people that tried to tell me I NEEDED a rarer mount. The only mount anyone needs is the one that's right for them.

4. And, if you really do want a rare mount, keep an eye out for unlikely contenders. One of the rarest mounts I have is the Black Fredas Soot Stallion. It was available for a few days a few years ago, rather "cheap," but very few people have it. You might have some hidden gems in your collection already!

Bottom line disclaimer: the monetization in this game is really running wild. The crates are not fair and I make no excuses for them. I also don't want to paint your financial situation and desires as moral failings, because they're not. The only thing you can immediately control is the amount of anxiety you let this give you, though.

SkaraMinoc · February 2022

Versispellis wrote: »

Advice:
1. Perspective shift. Think about why it's so important to have one of these arbitrarily expensive mounts. Is it something you NEED, is it something that will make you HAPPY, or do you want it because you feel like you're missing out?
<snip>
4. And, if you really do want a rare mount, keep an eye out for unlikely contenders. One of the rarest mounts I have is the Black Fredas Soot Stallion. It was available for a few days a few years ago, rather "cheap," but very few people have it. You might have some hidden gems in your collection already!

Concordantly, my favorite mounts are all normal looking mounts that fit the aesthetic and theme of my outfit. The Radiant Apex mounts really feel out of place most of the time. I have 7-8 Radiant Apex mounts at the 2500 crown gem tier and sometimes wonder if they're really worth buying. FOMO plays a heavy role in purchasing decisions. I like to have the option of riding a Radiant Apex and don't want to wait years for the crates to return.

Necrotech_Master · February 2022

i think in the entire existence of crown crates, ive bought less than 30 (i never kept track, but i generally dont buy them)

even then, with the few times i have bought crates it just reinforces why i never buy the crates: they just arent worth it

sure some of the stuff in them is cool, but i mean thats the way i think when i think of the lottery, i mean who wouldnt want to win $100 million, but the chance of doing so is so astronomically low as you will never get a good return on investment

i see investment as "what do i value the items im getting out of this?", when 90% of the items ive gotten out of crown crates are what most would consider utter garbage (common consumables for example), and the crown gem conversion cost is very poor to what you have to spend (keep in mind, in the beginning of the crown crate system there was NO crown gems or ability to buy any items directly from the crates like we do now)

my only guess is that the general costs of things are going up because we can more effectively directly buy what we want and the corporate overlords think we arent spending enough (i dont mind supporting for certain things i find reasonable, but again not going to go out of my way not too much past what my ESO+ gives me)

SammyKhajit · February 2022

Firstly, sorry OP re your health. This one hopes you will get better.

Crates are predatory and designed to make people lose. This one is sure your guild mates have won apex mounts but that’s the thing, it’s the “what if” that gives hope and prompts people to buy.

[snip]

The one way is to earn and save up endeavour seals (not ideal, but better than spending money on crates) for those apex.

[Edit for misinformation.]

Kesstryl · February 2022

The only time I ever bought crates was to sell crowns to a guild mate so I could have a large sum of in-game gold for various things I wanted. I would never buy this stuff for myself. I absolutely hate it, despise it, and I would have spent so much more on this game if the items were offered directly in the Crown Shop and not in gambling boxes. I'm sorry you are being made to feel terrible over a very predatory and unfair thing.

SammyKhajit · February 2022

[snip]

It’s actually a misinformation to disguise gambling into crates (ie as though it’s a harmless mini game), and not give warning that addiction may develop as result of crown crates purchase, and that the RNG is dismal.

If you care about customer loyalty, you’d be interested in the customers welfare as a result of playing the game.

[Edit for discussing moderation.]

Jaimeh · February 2022

ShadowWolf44 wrote: »

Because most people DO win. They DO get to experience the joy of winning something special- even if only rarely. However, if you reversed the situation? You can bet everything you own, & ever will own, they'd be posting much more fiercely than I.

OP, most people definitely don't win: if you look at the data recorded in crowncrates.com, from over 30k crates opened per season, the actual drop rates of radiant apex mounts are below 1% per apex (sometimes even 0.05%), so most players who open crates, in an overwhelming majority, don't get them as drops (they might of course buy them with gems, seals etc.). Just wanted to note this, because the odds are against everyone's favour, not just you.

Amottica · February 2022

No one owns anything they have purchased from the crown store as we don’t even own our characters.

As for fairness, we all have a choice to buy items from the crown store including crates. We are also able to see the extremely low chance of getting an apex reward and it’s easy to understand the radiant apex rewards are going to be an even lower chance.

Tthe reason they are here and will be here for the foreseeable future is because players spend a lot of money on them which makes them a great revenue stream for Zenimax.

BTW, I don’t buy crates and find little in the store that interests me. It’s just window dressing.

VaranisArano · February 2022

My answer to this "simply unfair practice" is to not buy Crown Crates, and I never have.

I don't appreciate paying for the chance at something I want, and so I don't gamble at crown crates. The Crown Gems are, as you say, only a limited recompense for duplicate items.

Industry regulation means that you can be pretty certain that ZOS is not being "unfair" with your RNG - that is, the low odds of getting a radiant apex mount are accurate. I realize that it sounds terribly unfair when people you know got the mounts, but that's one of the issues with small data sets. Most people who buy Crown Crates don't get radiant apex mounts and there's never a guarantee that you will eventually win big no matter how much you buy.

Its sort of like being confident that my state isn't rigging their lottery odds. Just because it's a "fair' ticket doesn't mean I'm going to strike it rich. And so I don't gamble in the state lottery either.

Now, you can do with your own money as you like. It's your money, after all.

Unfortunately, gambling is not designed to guarantee that people who buy in will eventually win big. Legal technicalities aside, loot boxes in video games are basically gambling.

Ankahet · February 2022

So, you believe that something random is unfair because you have spent more than others and they got something you wanted more, than what you received out of said crate?

I don't see this as complaining, it is worse than that, I see it as entitled.

There is a reason I don't buy crates, cam you guess why that is?

Gaebriel0410 · February 2022

I think buying crates with the expectation of a radiant apex is basically setting yourself up for disappointment even before opening them.

I usually buy a pack of crates whenever new ones come out, but for me it's kind of the other way around. Since I tend to only be interested in some of the 'regular' tier items, which I have a good chance of getting, if not from the crates themselves then with the gems I get from them. I've gotten a few apex mounts (maybe even a radiant but I don't know, that's how little interest I have in them) but every time I was like, ok cool but I'd never use it. I would've given away all of mine if I could.

Personally I think those apex things are vastly overrated, I much prefer the regular stuff.

If I already felt pressure to get specifically one of these apex mounts, or radiants even, I wouldn't even buy the crates as it would just be throwing away money since the drop rate for them is so low. Better just save up some endeavours with the certainty to be able to buy one, if radiant apex is the only thing you're after.

To me it kinda sounds like you're doing this for 'prestige' of having something super rare, as you're already making difference between even the radiant apex mounts, based on how much gems they cost. Like some above have noted too, that's a super unhealthy mindset man. To get what you what, you need to beat the odds and get an apex - but it also has to be a radiant, and a specific radiant (i.e. the one that's valued the highest in gems). That's gotta have odds that are so low it's basically impossible.

BloodWolfe · February 2022

Stop buying [snip] crates and ZOS will be forced to sell these in the store instead of gambling for it and being disappointed.

[edited for minor bashing]

JKorr · February 2022

I can't look up the threads at the moment, but there are people who have wanted a specific radiant apex so badly they literally spent thousands of dollars trying to get it. It is all RNG; some people got one off the free crates, when we still got those, and other people have bought dozens of crates and got none or not the one they wanted.

ShadowWolf44 · February 2022

Versispellis wrote: »

I think you're perceiving more wealth and luck with this system than there actually is. More people are poor and low income than you'd think. Based on my own observations, most people don't have RA mounts of any kind. Each season I'm seeing the same handful of people flexing in populated areas.

I know they spend grotesque amounts of money. I have lots of RA mounts myself, and I'm going to be honest, I have a compulsive spending problem.

I've also been very poor, so I KNOW it sucks to see "everyone" with stuff you don't have.

Thank you for your response- Going to post an "update" here- because my post was really not a "response" oriented one, when I created it, because I'm sick many days- and knew I might be unable to.

Since this was a well-thought-out response, I'll do a brief update here.

It's never been about wanting what others have- or the like- the main post IS about never having "won" a "Radiant Apex" mount, in the 6 years I've been playing- but also the nightmare I've been going through of late in regards to crates. It's almost as if posting about this? Has made it even worse.

They tell us we are "Guaranteed" 4 "drops". I guess by this? They mean "Blue" drops. Because that is all I get anymore- and sometimes I may get 1 purple, too.

The simple fact that a person that has to be extremely patient/diligent, saving up bits of money where they can, just to afford to get crates once in awhile... to spend around $300.00 over a year on crates, only to get repeat items over and over and over again, getting only 5 gems for them, or 13 for a purple, 33 for a Gold, and if you happen to get a repeat mount on Apex? Get only 132 crown gems, when the Sweet rolls give 400, even though you've gotten them before- is truly poor.

$300.00- real money, to get a couple face tattoos, and a grand total of about 400 crown gems- along with a couple "armor" pieces, (Blue)- is just.. unbelievable.

Tonight, for my almost 40 dollars, I got all blues again, 1 purple. Repeats all, save blue "shoulders", from the "event" crates. A grand total of 130 crown gems- a face tattoo , and that "shoulder". In 15 crates. Last two sets of 15? another 80.00? Two face tattoos. 2 purples- (both the 13 crown-gem xp scrolls), 2 pieces of that "blue armor". And an ugly pet.

20 bucks used to buy a 40-50 hr. truly fun video game. Imo? This is going to kill gaming, something I've been doing for many years.

However- it's not just the mounts. Almost non-stop repeats? Means I NEVER get any of the other items I'm hoping for- I know that Radiant Apex is very rare- but apparently only for some. I see people getting them in my guilds, all the time- it would be one thing, if I had poor luck on the RA rewards, but was able to get most of the other things that appeal to me- but getting the same thing, over and over? Just too much.

I really wanted to post a new thread, but rule changes over the years, make it almost impossible to seek answers for any of this- It's completely one sided- in their favor-

Take a recent post they did- where they banned many players- when they really didn't do anything wrong- people give them "kudos" for NOW opening it up for discussion? But not before- damage was already done.

What it comes down to is this- there is no recourse for someone in my situation- mention things that have happened to me over the years, besides just the store issues? You get rules created just for you. Even though you have a legion of evidence, PROVING what you're saying? They won't touch it- won't even look at it.

Same with the store. Doesn't matter what's happened to me- They will just tell you, "Things will balance out, over time". It's been 6 years- when is this "Balance-out' coming? When the game dies? Basically? People such as myself are placed into a box, ridiculed in very particular ways- to a point we don't dare say a word, or we risk banning.

Because there ARE NO answers for this. Some people are going to get things, going to enjoy the game, advance like "normal" people- and others are going to have massive issues, that will never be dealt with- we just have to eat it & deal with it, or quit. We are the "expendable" part of the equation- there's no need to find solutions to our nightmare- because eventually? We'll just leave the game- leaving our friends, massive investments, and creations behind- and they want us to do so in SILENCE- otherwise we are just "complainers", "whiners"- with absolute proof, evidence of exactly what has happened- they believe will go with us when we go. Hence, just ignore us, and we will go.

So that a new players may take our place, and it can happen all over again, to one of them- And this? Allows their whales to continue on, getting all they could ever dream from the game.

Me? 6 years of playing this game- I've fought through more than any will ever know- because we are NOT allowed to discuss it. In AMERICA.

Companies USED to listen to their customers. Game creators USED to CARE what happened to their players- but there will always be ACTUAL whiners, complainers, people trying to scam the system to get things- I fully understand this- I'm not one of these. As I said- I have PROOF of what I say- And? I've NEVER asked for anything in return, save one thing, and one thing only:

To be treated as every other player. Nothing special. No reimbursement, nothing. Just for someone to look into what has been happening, and find a solution that works for all.

But this, apparently, was asking FAR too much- in fact? It was considered to actually be a PROBLEM- one NOT WANTED, nor to be dealt with- and if brought up again? Would lead to getting kicked from the game.. never once having looked at any evidence.

This is what this is all about. I should be twice as far in this game as I am- I've not asked to be advanced there, or for anything other than what I just stated- to be treated like every other gamer, and, if I work hard, to receive approx. the same for my hard work, as they do. Or, if I pay for special items? To basically be able to receive something approx. the same value/worth, as my investment.

But this has not been the case. And to mention it? Try to find answers? Is to risk losing all I've invested, AND to be given an undeserved reputation- so that I end up isolated, discouraged, and hopeless that a solution will ever be found.

Read other threads, you will hear some of this in them, especially the one, I guess, where they wrongly banned people. it's peppered throughout there. THIS is where gaming in America has gotten to- where people are SCARED to seek answers, for ACTUAL, REAL issues they are having- and if they do? At least in my experience? Things become worse. As this last, almost $40.00, just showed.

And for stating this? I now have to wait in fear, of losing 6 years of playing fair, kind, compassionate, & honest- never having harmed another player, or violated a single rule, with any intent.. I did once try to improve the game, with a wonderful, multi-talented artist, who makes incredible covers of ESO games, and many others- They stripped that post, and threatened me for that, as well. For making a suggestion. She has now signed with a few other gaming companies, and it finding great success, as she was always going to do.

This? Is all part and parcel, of my experience with the crown store. Buy 15 crates, and get nothing but blues, and a purple one time? That would really suck. To have it happen multiple times? Something's to me anyways, appears to be wrong- but to post about it? Is to risk losing everything invested over 6 years- as it will be for this post. I know it's long- but explanations take words, no other way to do it.

Accept your situation, your "fate", or risk losing everything. Such is the way of Gaming, in 2022.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

ADarklore · February 2022

I guess I feel lucky after reading this, I've gotten a few Apex mounts over the years... none recently because none of them I've wanted. I got my favorite mount, the Radiant Shadow-Rider Senche; but also the Apex Storm Atronach Senche, Wild Hunt Senche, Flame Atronach Senche... of course a few of them were before they added the "Radiant" tag.