Mayrael wrote: »

BlackArgonian wrote: »

Every aspect of PvP was made free for a reason, its terrible. The most popular PvP streamer who streamed since release left with the release of New World and shows no signs of coming back. PvP is heavily class based IMO and counterplay is non existent against skilled players.

PvP is gankers, 1vXers and Ball Group players, if you are not built for one of those then you will die everywhere, glass cannon builds only exist for Sorcs and Nightblades because of the incredible escapes they have been given.

Nothing is being given just like that. NB have to work for it's survival, you can play pure glass canon NB vs newbies but not against exp players who will counter cloak 9/10 times. Sorc has it a bit easier but still it's not like press one key and you're good. This mind set is what causes most PvErs to wonder why their play style doesn't work. Because other players are not braindead NPCs, players know how to counter, adjust and make decisions in a blink of an eye.

Usually I have 3/4 PvP builds which differ quite a lot and still I can play each of them with success. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, I'm just giving you tips. PvP in this game is hard to master, and I do understand the frustration behind the process of learning it... but when you finally start to get it, it gets really addicting, you want more, and before you know you're one of PvPers

On a side note. New world was a total failure. Amazon has other, better title (I won't mention it to not break any rules) but it's not even close to ESO. I've tried it and TBH ESO PvP is much more fun and challenging, while PvE... Let's just say that even ESO daily quests are far more complicated than main story there, while character development there is complete opposite. It's very complicated, gated behind heavy grind and you can't swap chars just like that like we do in ESO.

I'm a hobbyist game developer, and if amazon taught me any type of valuable lessons is that it's a lot easier to send a bald bloke in a phallic shaped ship to space and back than it is to make a good game.

Lol, but back to topic.
I know that hardcore PvP builds like glasscannon nightblades who struggle with survivability is a thing, you can call that "balanced"
but truth is it's not.
It's RNG, it's completely unfair.
And the people who complain are in the perspective of the receiving end, they don't care how much you struggle with surviving, they care how easily their tank builds got wiped in an instant without a chance to respond or do anything at all.
I have a video where a single player was able to bomb two of us (and the ONLY reason I survived was because he decided to kill the other player, giving me a split second to spam scion and recover all my health).
I obviously can't post it because of names, and I don't have editing software to remove them.

But in my experience, I've been in that position where one moment I'm walking, and the next moment on my knees, and before I can even break free, I'm already dead.

It's simply not fair (by fair I mean in terms of fair fights. Getting instantly killed without a chance to do anything isn't fair, there's no learning curve, there was no way to anticipate it, and there's probably no way around it until you die and fix your build outside of PvP before you step back in).

Why do expert PvP'ers survive stealthy bombers? Hint: It's not because of their insane reflexes where they can spot you a millisecond before you become visible and successfully roll dodge in that fraction, because even if they did have that millisecond reaction, we all know server lag won't simply allow it.
The fact is that there's only one single ACTIVE skill in the entire game that prevents you from getting knocked out from stealth ambushes (by active I mean it's a skill that takes a slot in your bar).
Just one single skill.
Only one skill.
Only 1.
So why is it that something so important to prevent you from getting one-shot, something so important that could make battles fair and balanced, something so important like that is hidden behind a mage's guild skill morph?

I agree that nothing is given, that builds in this game are RNG in some sense, you won't have a one-build-trumps-everything, and as much as that annoys me, I'm ok with it if that's what the game wants to do.
But we should be considering the side-effects of instantly killing players and their perspectives.
You simply can't learn, you can't "git gud", if you can't participate.

And one simple bad experience in a moment to one player can become a life-long lesson.
Avoid PvP at all costs.

I've been playing this game ever since it released on consoles, I always main tanks, it feels wrong if I'm not tanking (needless to say, the tank experience in this game is also highly depressing), so when I got instantly wiped in PvP when I tried Cyrodiil for the first time, I did nothing wrong per-se. I was just riding my horse one moment, the next moment I was knocked out and then I died. That second and a half was a meaningless moment to the player who killed me, but to me, it was an experience where I learned that my "awesome" tank build wasn't enough, and I even stopped trying dungeons because I wasn't sure if I'd be able to tank them considering I died in a split second in PvP, for 6 years, I just played story content as a tank (do you know how much time it takes for a tank to defeat a horde of enemies? It's endless!).

In fact, the only way I started "getting better" was watching others on youtube sharing their builds and see spoilers on dungeons, which made me start tanking for PUGs (only on normal, I still don't have confidence I can tackle them on veteran) again, and with armory, I was able to ditch the tank and try some PvP builds, and even tho I started killing players and surviving a lot longer, it has never felt satisfying to me, because it doesn't feel like I improved as a player, it just feels like my build is doing everything, because I didn't change my playstyle (at least not as much) to make it feel like I contribute to my own victories.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They should stop adding tickets to the PvP events.

A modest proposal. Let people turn the quests from the base in with the Impressiorio. Not the town quests, just the ones where the turn in is in safe areas. I want my tickets, but have little interest in pvp so I do a bunch of quests and then just turn them in.

A few minutes ago on XBox the lowst queue time was 15 minutes for Cyrodil. If we let people like me not have to go to Cyrodil to turn in a scouting or bounty hunting quest, it should make the login shorter for those of you who want to.

I just became Tamriel Hero yesterday, ironically during Whitestrake's Mayhem, and I've done all the required quests in Cyrodiil during this event. I'm not a PVPer by any means, so I was killed a lot, but I found it not impossible to do PVE in Cyrodiil during the event (admitted I did have some help at some of the places, but during the times I was alone, I just had to bite my foot and hope for the best) I could have been lucky by picking one of the less crowded campagns, but who knows

So I'm on team, let PVPers have this event in peace, us PVErs have what 20 other zones and X amount of events.

cyberjanet wrote: »

[snip]

This.. is what the report button was invented for 8)

[edited to remove quote]

cyberjanet wrote: »

[snip]

The first one I'm right there with you. That's uncalled for.


The second one...the language was uncalled for. As for the sentiment, I'm going to say this to try to be helpful because that person wasn't, and I think it's something that might help some new PVEers walking into Cyrodiil.

You do melt.

Its extremely noticeable during Whitestrakes Mayhem because we're used to fighting players with 25-35k health, with full impenetrable gear, who proactively heal and buff, and who know to break free and dodge roll as soon as they get hit with CCs. We're built to wear down or burst down fellow PVPers.

When we start blowing up groups or there's a lot of players dying a lot faster than we're used to, it's not hard to guess these are inexperienced and unprepared PVEers.

If your build is adequate to good for PVE DPS, it's almost certainly going to qualify as "meltable" in PVP.

Story time: my SO doesn't care for PVP but is willing to casually play during Whitestrakes Mayhem. They bring their crit-focused PVE DPS stamblade build to Cyrodiil. Sure, they melt in battle. They also routinely burst kill other PVEers with their critical damage, vs the PVPers they don't do near as much damage to.


Okay, now that's done, how is this helpful?

First up, it's okay to melt, as long as you don't get upset when you blow up in a couple of critical hits. If you are okay with being squishy, cool! Get out there, have a blast, and laugh at the PVPers snarking in zone chat.

Second, if you don't want to melt, you'll want to take a look at why PVPers aren't meltable. A lot of it is practice, but there's some tricks to it.

• Impenetrable- ZOS gave everyone some base Impenetrable value, but this trait adds some major protection against getting blown up when a PVPer looks at your funny. And also against your fellow PVEers who are rocking their crit builds.
• Tankiness - A pretty solid combination is heavy armor, a HOT you can keep running all the time, a defensive buff you can keep running all the time, and enough stamina to break free/dodge roll.
• Play Cautiously - this is kind of like the advice I'd give players trying vMA. "Don't get greedy." When I was inexperienced, I stuck together with people in my alliance and tried neither to be the first nor last one to push on the attack. If I fought on my own, chased after an enemy, or found myself in the focus of siege weapons, I melted. If you want to live, it's often best to be in the middle, surrounded by allies. At least you won't melt alone!
• Be Obviously Alert - hold block whenever you are staying around and keep those defensive buffs/HOTS ticking.

Again, it's going to take practice. At least, it took me lots of practice to be a lot less meltable than when I started. Don't get discouraged and you'll get there too.

Of course, you don't have to practice. You can be like my SO who's okay with staying casual and having fun being meltable and melting others when they get in some good hits. If casual is your style, I hope you enjoy yourself!

Or you can try to avoid PVP as much as you can and still get the event rewards. More power to you!

But if you want to be less meltable, I hope this helps.

[edited to remove quote]

Mayrael wrote: »

BlackArgonian wrote: »

Every aspect of PvP was made free for a reason, its terrible. The most popular PvP streamer who streamed since release left with the release of New World and shows no signs of coming back. PvP is heavily class based IMO and counterplay is non existent against skilled players.

PvP is gankers, 1vXers and Ball Group players, if you are not built for one of those then you will die everywhere, glass cannon builds only exist for Sorcs and Nightblades because of the incredible escapes they have been given.

Nothing is being given just like that. NB have to work for it's survival, you can play pure glass canon NB vs newbies but not against exp players who will counter cloak 9/10 times. Sorc has it a bit easier but still it's not like press one key and you're good. This mind set is what causes most PvErs to wonder why their play style doesn't work. Because other players are not braindead NPCs, players know how to counter, adjust and make decisions in a blink of an eye.

Usually I have 3/4 PvP builds which differ quite a lot and still I can play each of them with success. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, I'm just giving you tips. PvP in this game is hard to master, and I do understand the frustration behind the process of learning it... but when you finally start to get it, it gets really addicting, you want more, and before you know you're one of PvPers

On a side note. New world was a total failure. Amazon has other, better title (I won't mention it to not break any rules) but it's not even close to ESO. I've tried it and TBH ESO PvP is much more fun and challenging, while PvE... Let's just say that even ESO daily quests are far more complicated than main story there, while character development there is complete opposite. It's very complicated, gated behind heavy grind and you can't swap chars just like that like we do in ESO.

Okay so lets look at some of cloak counters, Detection pots, Sentry set, Magelight, Expert Hunter, and Flare.

Magelight and expert hunter and flare are easy to see when they are on, cost a ton of resources, they were all made to counter one move that only one class gets.

The sentry set and detection pots have a cooldown, its easy to gank someone once they are on cooldown if you know they have it and are using them. Also having to waste something like a 5 piece armor set or drink a potion to counter one move, that is fair to you?

What does Cloak have that makes it strong? Removes tab target, gives movement with vampire and concealed weapon passives, gives you major resolve from NB passive, gives you enough time to charge a full heavy attack while invisible, grants damage buffs from leaving stealth from both NB and vampire passives and gives you a 100% crit chance on your next move.

Cloak is way worse than bolt escape, at least I can still see my tab target when my enemy has rolled 3 times into 3 bolt escapes across the whole battleground.

PvP in this game is honestly rediculous, 1vX builds are another major issue, when 1 guy thinks he should kill 12 people you start to wonder where the balance is, then when a set like dark convergence and plaguebreak is made, everyone´s a 1vXer and the PvP community starts crying.

A ball group is the only thing that should counter a ball group, end of story.

I think PvPers get enough already considering story and lore was already sacrificed to enable the three banners war.

This event is a mess, it's always been the worst of the lot because it's always the one there's just never enough tickets for and the best way to catch up is to grind super low drop chance bosses in a city swarming with zergs, oneshot gankers and enemies that USED to be threatening but are now just there to prevent you mounting up mid combat.

I wouldn't mind if it was a Battlegrounds event, at least that game mode is actually kinda fun but Imperial City is just a mess of a zone that doesn't know what it wants to be and the rewards are skewed to make you buy tickets for crowns rather than suffer through the horrible grind for style pages twice a year.

If it weren't for Zergs, I would not survive. I find them FUN!
As a terrible healer, I find myself not just wildly spamming, but running towards my weakest zerg members to help them out. And also get targeted.

And I have managed to get a little bolder and try some 1:1 (which ends very badly....)

Zergs and Ball Groups are also fun when you run into opposing Zergs and Ball Groups! Mayhem!

My $0.02

hafgood wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I think PvPers get enough already considering story and lore was already sacrificed to enable the three banners war.

This event is a mess, it's always been the worst of the lot because it's always the one there's just never enough tickets for and the best way to catch up is to grind super low drop chance bosses in a city swarming with zergs, oneshot gankers and enemies that USED to be threatening but are now just there to prevent you mounting up mid combat.

I wouldn't mind if it was a Battlegrounds event, at least that game mode is actually kinda fun but Imperial City is just a mess of a zone that doesn't know what it wants to be and the rewards are skewed to make you buy tickets for crowns rather than suffer through the horrible grind for style pages twice a year.

No, the event isn't a mess. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a mess.

I don't like Jesters Festival, I don't like Witches Festival, I absolutely loathe the New Life Festival but I'm not complaining about them. They are what they are, I can choose to take part or I can choose to miss them. This event is no different.

Do it, don't do it, accept its not for you and move on. Don't try to change it to something more desirable to your needs, that's not how the game works.

No one is entitled to have everything suit them in the game. No one.

Yes, it is a mess. It's designed specifically to get people to shell out for tickets. PvPers like the 100% alliance points boost. I doubt any of them like grinding bosses.

Vrienda wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I think PvPers get enough already considering story and lore was already sacrificed to enable the three banners war.

This event is a mess, it's always been the worst of the lot because it's always the one there's just never enough tickets for and the best way to catch up is to grind super low drop chance bosses in a city swarming with zergs, oneshot gankers and enemies that USED to be threatening but are now just there to prevent you mounting up mid combat.

I wouldn't mind if it was a Battlegrounds event, at least that game mode is actually kinda fun but Imperial City is just a mess of a zone that doesn't know what it wants to be and the rewards are skewed to make you buy tickets for crowns rather than suffer through the horrible grind for style pages twice a year.

No, the event isn't a mess. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a mess.

I don't like Jesters Festival, I don't like Witches Festival, I absolutely loathe the New Life Festival but I'm not complaining about them. They are what they are, I can choose to take part or I can choose to miss them. This event is no different.

Do it, don't do it, accept its not for you and move on. Don't try to change it to something more desirable to your needs, that's not how the game works.

No one is entitled to have everything suit them in the game. No one.

Yes, it is a mess. It's designed specifically to get people to shell out for tickets. PvPers like the 100% alliance points boost. I doubt any of them like grinding bosses.

It ain't the only event like that.

It's just that some people enjoy grinding PVE zones and hard Undaunted dungeons for hours, and I don't.

ZOS has been using events to sell event tickets for a while now. Mayhem isn't unique, though perhaps you notice the monetization a little more clearly because you don't like doing the activities that give event rewards for this specific event.


(This isn't a "PVPers have to PVE too" argument. I happen to like PVE. It's an acknowledgement that if I want all the event rewards, ZOS wants me to grind out their activities or else buy tickets. If I want to do neither, I don't get the rewards.)

VaranisArano wrote: »

cyberjanet wrote: »

[snip]

The first one I'm right there with you. That's uncalled for.


The second one...the language was uncalled for. As for the sentiment, I'm going to say this to try to be helpful because that person wasn't, and I think it's something that might help some new PVEers walking into Cyrodiil.

You do melt.

Its extremely noticeable during Whitestrakes Mayhem because we're used to fighting players with 25-35k health, with full impenetrable gear, who proactively heal and buff, and who know to break free and dodge roll as soon as they get hit with CCs. We're built to wear down or burst down fellow PVPers.

When we start blowing up groups or there's a lot of players dying a lot faster than we're used to, it's not hard to guess these are inexperienced and unprepared PVEers.

If your build is adequate to good for PVE DPS, it's almost certainly going to qualify as "meltable" in PVP.

Story time: my SO doesn't care for PVP but is willing to casually play during Whitestrakes Mayhem. They bring their crit-focused PVE DPS stamblade build to Cyrodiil. Sure, they melt in battle. They also routinely burst kill other PVEers with their critical damage, vs the PVPers they don't do near as much damage to.


Okay, now that's done, how is this helpful?

First up, it's okay to melt, as long as you don't get upset when you blow up in a couple of critical hits. If you are okay with being squishy, cool! Get out there, have a blast, and laugh at the PVPers snarking in zone chat.

Second, if you don't want to melt, you'll want to take a look at why PVPers aren't meltable. A lot of it is practice, but there's some tricks to it.

• Impenetrable- ZOS gave everyone some base Impenetrable value, but this trait adds some major protection against getting blown up when a PVPer looks at your funny. And also against your fellow PVEers who are rocking their crit builds.
• Tankiness - A pretty solid combination is heavy armor, a HOT you can keep running all the time, a defensive buff you can keep running all the time, and enough stamina to break free/dodge roll.
• Play Cautiously - this is kind of like the advice I'd give players trying vMA. "Don't get greedy." When I was inexperienced, I stuck together with people in my alliance and tried neither to be the first nor last one to push on the attack. If I fought on my own, chased after an enemy, or found myself in the focus of siege weapons, I melted. If you want to live, it's often best to be in the middle, surrounded by allies. At least you won't melt alone!
• Be Obviously Alert - hold block whenever you are staying around and keep those defensive buffs/HOTS ticking.

Again, it's going to take practice. At least, it took me lots of practice to be a lot less meltable than when I started. Don't get discouraged and you'll get there too.

Of course, you don't have to practice. You can be like my SO who's okay with staying casual and having fun being meltable and melting others when they get in some good hits. If casual is your style, I hope you enjoy yourself!

Or you can try to avoid PVP as much as you can and still get the event rewards. More power to you!

But if you want to be less meltable, I hope this helps.

[edited to remove quote]

It's not about being meltable. The advice is good and I'm sure will help someone, but the point of the screenshots wasn't to show someone claiming PvEers melt like a candle under a flamethrower. That's going to be a given. The point was that people abuse and harass PvEers for daring go into their precious Cyrodiil to get tickets that, aside from shelling out in the CS, there's no other way to get.

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Midyear Mayhem should have a community event element - like the main chapter events a website tracks every players progress, and grants incremental rewards based on the total alliance points earned during the event.

So exactly the same PVP, but instead of being purely competitive, there is an underlying co-operative element.

PVP is a different mindset than PVE, and it isn't fun to get repeatedly killed by an experienced group camping around a quest objective, but if your death helps the whole community towards a bigger goal it will make your death a sacrifice for the greater good.

Just an idea from someone else who does not enjoy this event, but does it anyway.

Pvp is fine battling for keeps, etc. But it’s not fun when you try to level skill lines on new toons in a town and have somebody camping the quest giver. Not trying to retake the town, mind you, just killing level 15 players. So I switch to leveled toon, go back and kill the jackwagon, bag a couple times, and switch back. Lol. But that’s why pvpers get grief…the few troublemakers : )

Vrienda wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I think PvPers get enough already considering story and lore was already sacrificed to enable the three banners war.

This event is a mess, it's always been the worst of the lot because it's always the one there's just never enough tickets for and the best way to catch up is to grind super low drop chance bosses in a city swarming with zergs, oneshot gankers and enemies that USED to be threatening but are now just there to prevent you mounting up mid combat.

I wouldn't mind if it was a Battlegrounds event, at least that game mode is actually kinda fun but Imperial City is just a mess of a zone that doesn't know what it wants to be and the rewards are skewed to make you buy tickets for crowns rather than suffer through the horrible grind for style pages twice a year.

No, the event isn't a mess. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a mess.

I don't like Jesters Festival, I don't like Witches Festival, I absolutely loathe the New Life Festival but I'm not complaining about them. They are what they are, I can choose to take part or I can choose to miss them. This event is no different.

Do it, don't do it, accept its not for you and move on. Don't try to change it to something more desirable to your needs, that's not how the game works.

No one is entitled to have everything suit them in the game. No one.

Yes, it is a mess. It's designed specifically to get people to shell out for tickets. PvPers like the 100% alliance points boost. I doubt any of them like grinding bosses.

I think the sadest thing people dont even realize is how scummy the actual top PvPers actually are and how broken Cyrodiil as a system actually is. I was in a 7 day Cyro campaign only to see 1 man with double the score of any other player of any alliance even his own, 6m vs 3m. Now it starts to get really shady when your scroll disappears behind you without your keep getting flagged. But the most interesting thing is when this AD player with 6m score, is assaulting a keep and several DC players see him and let him pass unharmed 5 meters in front of them while they work together to seige our EP keep. Hilarious though that its one of the only two keeps that they need for emperor, both of which were EP.

I ask around and I´m told that he never sleeps, abuses low pop bonuses, and whatever else these people tell themselves to make Cyrodiil seem okay.

What I think? He has other people play his account, he has other people log onto other faction characters, hand him scrolls, divert players and give information about locations and movements of factions, and all the other scummy stuff you can think of.

You know if you google "buy emperor ESO" you will find a range of websites charging anywhere from 1000$ to 500$.

as an old timer (let's start ... from UltimaOnline and Lineage2) with ESAK mindset, I see PvP in ESO as an absolutely idle thing (you even won't hit by a friendly fire ever), not worth to be crying about (execept slightly bruised ego, sometimes).
See, if killed, PC don't lose anything, from items and levels to quasi-permadeath. Except for your time to travel to the quest objective, of course.
Hence, you may look at gankers, campers and griefers as some sort of a (group) mob (scripted to {while(true) getNextTarget().attack();} loop). So, band with other PvErs, and wipe gankers for the greater good. Or return later.
p.s. with other side, if ZOS will set an auto-revival (i.e., unless dead PC will not resurrected by other PC) delay for a dead PC to significant amount of time (from end of campaign to several hours), PvP will be much more different and ... dazzling.

---
listening: Robin Hood -- Men in Tights Song (by Mel Brooks, et al.)