Bahsei nerf - let other sets shine where they do best? Which sets?

BahometZ · February 2022

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

If you want us to wear something else, then give us something else to wear. No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.
Siroria needs to build stacks in one location, Bahsei can be prebuffed and goes where you go.
Every other light armour minor slayer set is irrelevant at the moment. You want us to wear moon dancer? Buff it. You want us to wear Infal? Buff it.

Yes you can run a bunch of other sets and have a good time in most content, but for trifectas and score pushes it's still Bahsei S tier, then everything else.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2022

i think dreadsail reef should aim to give us a consistent and easy, but overall less powerful bonus light armor trial set, as the conditions and bonuses for bahsei and siroria are quite good. bahsei especially, but they both can be rather hard to manage.

BahometZ · February 2022

It's a bit sad that we have absorbed the pattern of new dlc selling the latest meta so much that we assume that's where it should come from. How about buffing old trial sets?

vMaw used to be really hard but now it's easy. Buff sets from there so that everyone can get access to it. Making Moondancer a really powerful set won't suddenly mean people can clear Godslayer or Planesbreaker.

Fennwitty · February 2022

Adding perfected to the older trials would be cool. Tweak them while there.

Thal · February 2022

I’ve always hoped that Moondancer would be reworked (and offer perfected version) to be a bizarro Bahseis. Above 50% Magicka with synergy offers a stronger spell/weapon damage buff. Below 50% remains recovery

Saieden · February 2022

I don't know how people didn't see this nerf coming, it should've happened 6 months ago (but it's paywalled content, so...).

People may argue that's a risk/reward set, but in reality you just need to copy a build and rotation for a near-free 8-10% damage increase. And you can always self correct just spamming unstable wall.

I also think the design of the risk/reward is just bad to begin with because the condition is completely non-interactive (it doesn't depend on the situation/fight to keep up, unlike Kinras or relequen stacks that require a target).

vesselwiththepestle · February 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.

You are explaining why Bahsei had to be nerfed. I am all in for buffing Moon Dancer, though.

Gylzyn · February 2022

So...new expansion, new sets, new meta. And to 'encourage' players to go for the new sets they decide to nerf the previous ones. This cycle is getting a little tiresome now.

kojou · February 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

If you want us to wear something else, then give us something else to wear. No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.
Siroria needs to build stacks in one location, Bahsei can be prebuffed and goes where you go.
Every other light armour minor slayer set is irrelevant at the moment. You want us to wear moon dancer? Buff it. You want us to wear Infal? Buff it.

Yes you can run a bunch of other sets and have a good time in most content, but for trifectas and score pushes it's still Bahsei S tier, then everything else.

I agree. If you look at all the light armor damage sets with minor slayer the others are objectively poor for damage dealing. I use Bahsei because it gives a buff that is maintainable while moving, it is impactful, and it doesn't require me to alter my game-play in any unnatural way.

Perfected False God's: This is the only set in this class besides Bahsei that I use. I still think it is stupid that they nerfed the perfected version to balance with Vicious Ophidian (a set you can easily farm on craglorn trials) a while back, but it is still a nice set, although I would classify it more as a sustain set than a damage set.

Perfected Roaring Opportunity (Lost): I hate the fact that they made a trails damage set into a support set (1 player per team), and put the buff behind a heavy attack. I have actually boycotted Kynes because of this set.

Perfected Siroria: Great for dummy parses before Bahsei. Good luck keeping your stacks up in actual combat when there are mechanics that force you to move.

Master Architect: Another damage set that is also a support set, and somehow worse than Roaring Opportunity Lost.

Moondancer: If you use a synergy you have a 50% chance of getting the buff you want for 20 seconds. Whats not to like?

Infallible Aether: Gives Minor Vulnerability (a group/support debuff with several other sources) for 10 seconds after a heavy attack and gives a 900 point heavy attack damage bonus... yay?

My point here is that Trials sets should be the most desirable sets for running trials, and if they nerf Bahsei even more its very likely none of these sets would actually be the next in line for a magicka damage dealing 5 piece set. I would also like to see damage dealer sets designed around use by an individual player (no group/support bonuses), and all be equally as powerful and move the group/support bonuses to the crappy healer's sets that nobody uses.

WrathOfInnos · February 2022

kojou wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

If you want us to wear something else, then give us something else to wear. No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.
Siroria needs to build stacks in one location, Bahsei can be prebuffed and goes where you go.
Every other light armour minor slayer set is irrelevant at the moment. You want us to wear moon dancer? Buff it. You want us to wear Infal? Buff it.

Yes you can run a bunch of other sets and have a good time in most content, but for trifectas and score pushes it's still Bahsei S tier, then everything else.

I agree. If you look at all the light armor damage sets with minor slayer the others are objectively poor for damage dealing. I use Bahsei because it gives a buff that is maintainable while moving, it is impactful, and it doesn't require me to alter my game-play in any unnatural way.

Perfected False God's: This is the only set in this class besides Bahsei that I use. I still think it is stupid that they nerfed the perfected version to balance with Vicious Ophidian (a set you can easily farm on craglorn trials) a while back, but it is still a nice set, although I would classify it more as a sustain set than a damage set.

Perfected Roaring Opportunity (Lost): I hate the fact that they made a trails damage set into a support set (1 player per team), and put the buff behind a heavy attack. I have actually boycotted Kynes because of this set.

Perfected Siroria: Great for dummy parses before Bahsei. Good luck keeping your stacks up in actual combat when there are mechanics that force you to move.

Master Architect: Another damage set that is also a support set, and somehow worse than Roaring Opportunity Lost.

Moondancer: If you use a synergy you have a 50% chance of getting the buff you want for 20 seconds. Whats not to like?

Infallible Aether: Gives Minor Vulnerability (a group/support debuff with several other sources) for 10 seconds after a heavy attack and gives a 900 point heavy attack damage bonus... yay?

My point here is that Trials sets should be the most desirable sets for running trials, and if they nerf Bahsei even more its very likely none of these sets would actually be the next in line for a magicka damage dealing 5 piece set. I would also like to see damage dealer sets designed around use by an individual player (no group/support bonuses), and all be equally as powerful and move the group/support bonuses to the crappy healer's sets that nobody uses.

Good points. Seems like this could be partially solved by a rollback to previous versions of False Gods (additional 1096 Max Mag) and Siroria (stacks up to 600 Spell Damage). Moondancer and Architect would be much more desirable if they had a perfected version, which could easily be added with one more stat line and made to drop from MoL and HoF HM (maybe 1 armor, 1 weapon, 1 jewelry from final boss). IA needs a full rework, and I hope it become a viable DPS set someday.

francesinhalover · February 2022

Reworking/Giving magicka a relequen light armor version would be pretty cool.

It would be storm tornados
(Theres already a boss ingame that does this, just copy past the effect)

You could make it drop from some unpopular trial/trial mag set.

kojou · February 2022

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

If you want us to wear something else, then give us something else to wear. No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.
Siroria needs to build stacks in one location, Bahsei can be prebuffed and goes where you go.
Every other light armour minor slayer set is irrelevant at the moment. You want us to wear moon dancer? Buff it. You want us to wear Infal? Buff it.

Yes you can run a bunch of other sets and have a good time in most content, but for trifectas and score pushes it's still Bahsei S tier, then everything else.

I agree. If you look at all the light armor damage sets with minor slayer the others are objectively poor for damage dealing. I use Bahsei because it gives a buff that is maintainable while moving, it is impactful, and it doesn't require me to alter my game-play in any unnatural way.

Perfected False God's: This is the only set in this class besides Bahsei that I use. I still think it is stupid that they nerfed the perfected version to balance with Vicious Ophidian (a set you can easily farm on craglorn trials) a while back, but it is still a nice set, although I would classify it more as a sustain set than a damage set.

Perfected Roaring Opportunity (Lost): I hate the fact that they made a trails damage set into a support set (1 player per team), and put the buff behind a heavy attack. I have actually boycotted Kynes because of this set.

Perfected Siroria: Great for dummy parses before Bahsei. Good luck keeping your stacks up in actual combat when there are mechanics that force you to move.

Master Architect: Another damage set that is also a support set, and somehow worse than Roaring Opportunity Lost.

Moondancer: If you use a synergy you have a 50% chance of getting the buff you want for 20 seconds. Whats not to like?

Infallible Aether: Gives Minor Vulnerability (a group/support debuff with several other sources) for 10 seconds after a heavy attack and gives a 900 point heavy attack damage bonus... yay?

My point here is that Trials sets should be the most desirable sets for running trials, and if they nerf Bahsei even more its very likely none of these sets would actually be the next in line for a magicka damage dealing 5 piece set. I would also like to see damage dealer sets designed around use by an individual player (no group/support bonuses), and all be equally as powerful and move the group/support bonuses to the crappy healer's sets that nobody uses.

Good points. Seems like this could be partially solved by a rollback to previous versions of False Gods (additional 1096 Max Mag) and Siroria (stacks up to 600 Spell Damage). Moondancer and Architect would be much more desirable if they had a perfected version, which could easily be added with one more stat line and made to drop from MoL and HoF HM (maybe 1 armor, 1 weapon, 1 jewelry from final boss). IA needs a full rework, and I hope it become a viable DPS set someday.

Perfected versions would definitely help, but the bigger issue is the types of buffs given IMO.

For example, why does Master Architect have to give Major Slayer in the first place? Why can't it give an unnamed personal buff like Bahsei when you cast an ultimate and just remove the group component altogether?

If Moondancer was magicka pool dependent (Above 50% give Damage boost/Below 50% give regen boost) then that would make it much more desirable.

I think Siroria should be made based on Light Attacks like Relequen is. Just get rid of the stupid circle.

Infallible Aether and Roaring Opportunist both need to be redone altogether IMO. Just think through some trials situations and try to make them the best at at least one situation or role (that is not a healer) in a trial...

Here are some ideas I have:

Roaring Opportunist: When you enter a portal or when you come back to the group get a damage buff of z amount for y seconds. Just think there will be players begging to do portals instead of crickets when a raid lead asks who wants to do portals. It will be like doing portals is an Opportunity maybe even a Roaring one!

Infallible Aether: Get a damage bonus of x and a movement speed bonus of y when more than z meters from the boss, because the players doing the kiting mechanics should always be "Infallible"

Ok, so jokes aside... these are the types of things I would like to see in damage dealing sets for trials that actually make them better for doing trails.

Glantir · February 2022

Changing Roaring Opportunist would change the whole setup for most organized trial groups bc at the moment many Healers wear it to buff the group.

Tannus15 · February 2022

moondancer would be fine if you could get both buffs at the same time, picking up another synergy gives you the other buff. i gave it another shot with the new gryphon set and had a total of 98% uptime of "moondancer buffs" and it was just bad.

A perfected version would help at least.

Right now I'd rather wear yandir than literally any of the light armour sets.

BahometZ · February 2022

If Moondancer was magicka pool dependent (Above 50% give Damage boost/Below 50% give regen boost) then that would make it much more desirable.

Rewarding the player for maintaining high resources, the opposite of bahsei, kinda neat flip. I like it.

WrathOfInnos · February 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

If Moondancer was magicka pool dependent (Above 50% give Damage boost/Below 50% give regen boost) then that would make it much more desirable.

Rewarding the player for maintaining high resources, the opposite of bahsei, kinda neat flip. I like it.

Yes please, anything that serves as the opposite of Bahsei would be great. Finally a chance for players to get rewarded for building sustain, especially Bretons, Redguards and Bosmer. It would be a buff to the constantly nerfed heavy attack builds, that stay at full resources perpetually and some players seem to love. This could also correct a risk-reward mechanic when choosing between food with health or food with recovery, if staying near full resource could be converted into damage. It would incentivize players to use some sustain sets, glyphs, or possibly even the Atronach mmundus stone, and encourage groups to utilize sustain sets like Nahviintaas or Kyne's Wind (although both are still a stretch in their current form).

Ok probably not all of these things simultaneously, but I love the idea of rewarding oversustain with more damage. It is the polar opposite of Bahsei, which just reinforced the all in damage, zero sustain, single build meta.

Eormenric · February 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

If you want us to wear something else, then give us something else to wear. No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.
Siroria needs to build stacks in one location, Bahsei can be prebuffed and goes where you go.
Every other light armour minor slayer set is irrelevant at the moment. You want us to wear moon dancer? Buff it. You want us to wear Infal? Buff it.

Yes you can run a bunch of other sets and have a good time in most content, but for trifectas and score pushes it's still Bahsei S tier, then everything else.

I totally agree with you. The expected nerf of Bahsei looks more like a precursor to releasing even more powerful sets--as if to say, "You know we make new sets OP. So check this out! Yeah... still want to wear Bahsei now?!".

Bahsei's measly 3% drop would be better received if in all of next year's content--and some changing of old content--we got more resource drain mechanics, like that boss in Fungal Grotto 2(?). Boss saps your resources, great, you now have 12% increased damage but what are you going to be able to cast? Nothing. Or better yet... boss mechanics that deal damage to you based on how low your resources are. Are you constantly below 90% magicka? You're going to die every time this ability goes off. That's a much stronger risk-reward than what we got now.

And someone pull me up onto the "Opposite of Bahsei" set train! I like it! Moondancer does indeed look like a viable candidate for change. The randomness of either too much sustain or not that high of spell damage could use a revision. High recovery needs a better feeling than spamming.

Tannus15 · February 2022

the problem with a max mag == damage set is that it's instantly BiS for stam builds...

you would have to have it based on having mag > 30k or something like that

Saieden · February 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

the problem with a max mag == damage set is that it's instantly BiS for stam builds...

you would have to have it based on having mag > 30k or something like that

There is no good way to have a set that adds a raw number purely based on you resource pools. The fundamental problem is that it that the condition is non-interactive, i.e. depends solely on player state, and the benefit is just pure bigger number.

In general, having it depend on hard numbers (not percentage) means it must scale somehow, otherwise it depends too much on other build factors. Essentially what you have then is a damage version of Jorvulds, except it looks at your current value instead of max pool + spell damage. Sounds great, except that if you scale it linearly, then there is maybe one or two obvious choices to pair it with (max mag + recovery) which would either be crazy strong, or necessary to reach comparable numbers with set combinations that don't directly influence each other like that. So they would have to cap it somewhere in the middle, with decent scaling, and in the end you've through all that effort to get what amounts to Law of Julianos with a different number and some small variance.

Succuby · February 2022

How was it changed ?

Glantir · February 2022

Succuby wrote: »

How was it changed ?

Damage Bonus is reduced to 12% from 15%

Maybe they nerfed it bc stam builds can already keep their magicka low to get the full bonus?

lQrukl · February 2022

I am dreaming of a Moondancer buff ever since I found out Basei doesn't buff pets at all, including Blastbones and Skeletal Mage.
MD could be pefect set for Necromancer with self-synergy opportunity and pure stats increase.
Just needs a fair 5th bonus, not a useless magica regeneration.
It's not a pvp set, ZoS, cmon!

We heard so much about the notorious variability on the chapter announcement stream. But we still have to use 1-2 weapons, same skills, and same sets.
Necro is more effective with fire staff, not shock. Despite the fact that literally every ability of Necro is AoE.
Any petsorc uses Bahsei not because it wants to be at the top of the meta, just other alternatives are way, way worse, even with taking into account the fact that Basei does not increase the damage of pets!

doesurmindglow · February 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

If you want us to wear something else, then give us something else to wear. No other light armour set is as strong as Bahsei, even after the nerf. We are still going to wear this set.
Siroria needs to build stacks in one location, Bahsei can be prebuffed and goes where you go.
Every other light armour minor slayer set is irrelevant at the moment. You want us to wear moon dancer? Buff it. You want us to wear Infal? Buff it.

Yes you can run a bunch of other sets and have a good time in most content, but for trifectas and score pushes it's still Bahsei S tier, then everything else.

Oh don't worry, a trial is coming with the next chapter and I'm sure the set from that will be the one we want.

WrathOfInnos · February 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

the problem with a max mag == damage set is that it's instantly BiS for stam builds...

you would have to have it based on having mag > 30k or something like that

It could just be based on primary resource (like how orbs restore to the larger pool). Then the only way to abuse it would be to play a build that uses only stamina skills, but has a magicka pool larger than the stamina pool. A build like this would be holding itself back more than any benefit from the set, so it could be balanced.

CP5 · February 2022

lQrukl wrote: »

I am dreaming of a Moondancer buff ever since I found out Basei doesn't buff pets at all, including Blastbones and Skeletal Mage.
MD could be pefect set for Necromancer with self-synergy opportunity and pure stats increase.
Just needs a fair 5th bonus, not a useless magica regeneration.
It's not a pvp set, ZoS, cmon!

We heard so much about the notorious variability on the chapter announcement stream. But we still have to use 1-2 weapons, same skills, and same sets.
Necro is more effective with fire staff, not shock. Despite the fact that literally every ability of Necro is AoE.
Any petsorc uses Bahsei not because it wants to be at the top of the meta, just other alternatives are way, way worse, even with taking into account the fact that Basei does not increase the damage of pets!

Just out of curiosity, do you remember roughly where about in the stream they mentioned that? Was only half paying attention to it and don't recall hearing where they mentioned that.

merpins · February 2022

Here's a thought: maybe ZoS should think about rebalancing the game a bit to make sustain easier, and rather than trying to force players to use sustain sets when they want to use damage sets as a dps, they should just give players the freedom to use those damage dealing sets. Yeah, this set is overtuned without the nerf. But nerfing this set a bit and buffing others to help compensate would be the way to make players consider other dps sets.

Just nerfing this set isn't going to make players say "Oh gee, since the best dps set in the game was nerfed, I'd better use a sustain set!" that makes no sense whatsoever.

Tannus15 · February 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Here's a thought: maybe ZoS should think about rebalancing the game a bit to make sustain easier, and rather than trying to force players to use sustain sets when they want to use damage sets as a dps, they should just give players the freedom to use those damage dealing sets. Yeah, this set is overtuned without the nerf. But nerfing this set a bit and buffing others to help compensate would be the way to make players consider other dps sets.

Just nerfing this set isn't going to make players say "Oh gee, since the best dps set in the game was nerfed, I'd better use a sustain set!" that makes no sense whatsoever.

they just did. by allowing you to balance your skills between stam and mag resources they just boosted sustain by a lot

that said, there is now even less incentive to use a sustain set.