I am going to get a lot of hate on this

markulrich1966 · January 2022

I started a second accound some weeks ago.

At level 12-20 I queued as fake tank for the fungal grotto 1 Undaunted Event runs.
Was no problem at all, did approx 200 runs. So I tried it later in other basegame dungeons on normal, did not even have a taunt.
For normal basegame dungeons it works perfectly fine.

I would not do it on vet, as I experienced myself that a tank can quickly make the difference of getting wiped in vet Wayrest Sewers 2 or not, on my main account as DD at cp1600.
And for DLC normal dungeons I would not do it either in PUGs, only if we assemble a group in guildchat and are all d'accord to run with 3 or 4 DDs.

Fabi95 · January 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's because poor dungeon design focusing too much on DPS. It has finally got up with world and it's easier for 4 DPS to do content.

Good point. The dramatically higher health pools in DLC dungeons (particularly new ones) are reason enough for this development.

xaraan · January 2022

MoreTune wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

As a player that has played tank most of his high end pve life, I know how horrible it is to run as a pure tank and end up in a group that cannot clear anything. It's frankly worse than fank tank groups and a bit shameful because none of the OG dungeons are so hard that a DPS should have any trouble clearing them.

If you are truly carrying the run, most of the time the boss will aggro to you anyway

This. Seems like half the comments don’t realize this concept.

No need for inner fire unless someone else pulls boss. Or someone else has a taunt slotted. Which believe me has happened.

Well, this isn't necessarily true.

Healers can get aggro just from healing because of the way aggro works with heals. So if you are 'tanking' without taunting, the healer can get turned on.

There are some mechanics that will cause a boss to move about as well, some can't be taunted (like the boss at the end of iceheart dungeon) and others that can just cause a boss to jump from one to another for weird reasons without taunt up.

Though it's mostly true, if you are the biggest threat, you'll hold aggro without a taunt, it's not a 100% rule and taunt should be used if you are "tanking" even if you are just fake tanking.

xaraan · January 2022

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This is why I tend to think there should be diminishing returns on the daily XP after you're a certain CP level.

There essentially is - I guess in actually the reverse is true - the less CP you have the faster you advance earning the same amount of XP as someone higher. I don't see a need to double dip that penalty.

Nogawd · January 2022

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

Tannus15 · January 2022

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

that's not what we're saying though.

we're saying, slot the damn taunt. innerbeast will increase your dps and it'll make everything better for everyone involved. the boss will stay still in the aoe's and move predictably.

nothing else in your build needs to change, it's 2 skill points which is well spent if this is what you're going to do.

Amottica · January 2022

I think the bigger issue is players just doing what they want and disregarding or even disrespecting others in the group. I have seen threads complaining about fake tanks, fake healers. speedrunners, whatever. All of that is players doing what they want and could care less about what anyone else wants. Glad I queue with guild mates. It is faster and leads to smoother runs.

VaranisArano · January 2022

Slot a taunt, hold boss aggro, and don't die.

I won't say a negative word to you.

But if my healer is facetanking the boss, or a tauntable boss is running around out of my AOEs, or the low level DDs are the ones getting chased by the boss...

Then I'm going to politely ask you to slot a taunt. You queued as tank. It's your job.

And if you refuse, or say something snotty about how we shouldn't need you to do the role you queued up for...

I still won't say anything negative to you. But boy, I'm thinking it.

Most fake tanks in normal dungeons:

Jusey1 · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Slot a taunt, hold boss aggro, and don't die.

Which isn't that hard to do. There's multiple different taunts you can use and there is plenty of ways to boost your defense to hold aggro and keep yourself alive. Just make sure to know the mechanics of the dungeon to properly survive and perform your task that you sought out to do. If you're new to the dungeon, mention that you're new to the mechanics at some point if you do get wiped.

gariondavey · January 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

Slot inner beast. it's a crazy strong skill that everyone would run if it didn't taunt. put it on the backbar instead of one of your dots.

it's literally free major slayer vs the boss and then you're not a fake tank, you're a dps tank, because you're tanking. that's all tanking is, taunting the boss.

I don't understand why a 'fake' tank wouldn't run this skill.

This

francesinhalover · January 2022

Faking a role and not slotting a taunt is very rude.

Troodon80 · January 2022

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This is why I tend to think there should be diminishing returns on the daily XP after you're a certain CP level.

If you're 1200CP's and fake tanking, odds are you're not doing anyone any good that wants to legit run their normal dungeon when it's at their tier.

Someone queuing up to practice their role, maybe because they're newer to the role, to the dungeon, whatever gets nothing (but XP) from a speed run or a sloppy run with fake roles.

Diminishing returns (or none at all) would lower the available queue, but as mentioned above, you're not really helping them anyway.

You should group or be grouped with people of similar (dungeon) experience or CP level.

The problem is, who defines capability? The character, the CP, or the player? I've said this in the past, but there are plenty of CP 2000+ players out there that I wouldn't want in veteran, and more's the point... they wouldn't want to be there, either. Your idea, in order for them to get rewards, would:

Dictate how they should play to your standard
Force other players to carry them

While I do, more broadly, agree with your latter statement (clipped out) regarding pre-made groups, this part could not be endorsed. I wish CP was an indicator of skill. But it's not. If that's one thing I've learned in the years of playing this game all the way up to the highest end game levels of PvE and PvP, CP does not equal skill. You should not pigeonhole even high CP players into veteran for daily rewards when they are very clearly not capable of doing said content.

Troodon80 · January 2022

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

You've not met many new players, have you? Four "real" DDs all doing a collective 4k will not smoke any other combination. I can assure you of that. To think otherwise is to only be self-absorbed in one's own skill and assume others are the same. What you mean is, "4 DPS, of an arbitrary skill level decided by me, in a normal will smoke any other combination."

Even if we were to assume you got grouped with them and their DPS went up accordingly, if I were there on my tank I would be doing more than 4k. So 1DD + 1 tank combination is better. Plus, you've got buffs and debuffs. So, again, fallacious statement.

MoreTune · January 2022

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

I agree.

I fully expected everyone’s responses thus far. Not surprised, hence the title of my post. Getting called an “elitist” and “big ego” was the icing on the cake. Not sure how that plays into my post, but I guess that’s the meta “group think” on the forums.

Double standard in this community in regards to tanks/healers versus DPS. Fake tanks and healers get posted regularly But no one ever mentions low dps turning a 5 minute clear to 15 or 20 minutes. I consider this fake dps if I can do more damage as a fully kitted tank or healer in full support gear.

And god forbid if you call someone a fake dps, you’ll be considered an elitist or egotistical. But mention fake tanks and fake healers, immediately get upvotes and agreement.

Nogawd · January 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

You've not met many new players, have you? Four "real" DDs all doing a collective 4k will not smoke any other combination. I can assure you of that. To think otherwise is to only be self-absorbed in one's own skill and assume others are the same. What you mean is, "4 DPS, of an arbitrary skill level decided by me, in a normal will smoke any other combination."

Even if we were to assume you got grouped with them and their DPS went up accordingly, if I were there on my tank I would be doing more than 4k. So 1DD + 1 tank combination is better. Plus, you've got buffs and debuffs. So, again, fallacious statement.

Buffs help matter more in vets.

Normals again, irrelevant.

LashanW · January 2022

MoreTune wrote: »

I don’t slot a taunt. I clear majority of trash or kite the mobs to the boss encounter. And I usually clear a non dlc normal within 5 minutes.

Why not use the undaunted taunt? Stam morph is a straight up 10% dps boost. Better than any DoT you have to drop to slot it. You'll nuke the bosses even faster (taunts not really needed for normal mobs). You will waste time if boss decide to go after some new player and they decide to run like headless chicken. Worse in some dungeons where a new player can runaway with boss on their tail and end up resetting the boss.

So why not slot Inner Beast and ensure even faster clears?

Hotdog_23 · January 2022

Tank fake or real need to at least taunt the boss and bring Major Breach. If not then you should get kicked, my 2 cents. Every time I run into a fake take not at least taunting then I start a vote to kick unless they are doing amazing dps. Not carrying a fake tank, who just runs around or hangs back and waits for some else to start the fight. Honestly 50% of the time the vote to kick works and the times it doesn’t after the second boss fights someone else will start a vote to kick about 10-15% of the time.

Personally, out of my 18 characters I only fake tank normal dungeons on an StamDK. Slot Inner Beast for the taunt and extra damage and Noxious Breath for the major breach on the boss and adds. For the several encounters where some bosses can hit hard use Corrosive Armor Ultimate. Use Carve skill as my spammable for the shield and decent damage. Stampede to get quick into the adds to try and take soft agro. Try to keep the boss in one general area because you can lost a lot of DPS if the boss is running around everywhere.

Been doing this setup for quite a long time and only died like once in the last 6 months and that was because I missed a roll dodge. Also taunt the occasional add that can hit hard too.

Funny story about the time I died one of the other DPS came over and started T-bagging me for dying and the boss smacked and killed them also. Almost rolled out of my chair laughing at them and my dumb self for getting killed.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey

Nemezijus · January 2022

If you want a fast and efficient 4DD run in a dungeon go and create a pre-made group in guilds or Craglorn or any Undaunted-base map. This way others know what they sign up for. Everyone is happy.

But please don't try to tell us that you are doing a favor for a random group of people when you fake your way in as a tank and don't even slot a taunt. As someone above said already, you do it only to cut the queue, not to spare some low dps DDs from long dungeon run.

If you use random group finder, then accept that you can get players of any skill and experience level, some people will be doing that particular dungeon for the first time, others maybe finally decided to try group content for the first time. And you being there with no aggro, not doing the role you signed up for is just cheating. Plain and simple. IRL if you fake your resume, you wouldn't stay long at the job. Same way I hope people do kick fake tanks just as much as I do.

In short: build a pre-made 4dd group and enjoy smooth runs, but don't fake your role in random groups cause that's just cheating.

Aardappelboom · January 2022

I'm not for fake tanking and healing persé and I haven't done it but I honestly don't mind it either. ESO has such build variety that the traditional pre-defined roles, at least for normal dungeons, aren't very logical anymore tbh.

You can't expect attracting new players with the "play however you want" slogan and then push them in 3 pre-defined roles to complete dungeons. On top of that it's not always easy to find real tanks so if a fake one joins my PUG and we manage, I'm fine with it, waiting for 30 minutes to play a dungeon however, is game breaking to me.

Take into account that you have ring of pale order (even in groups it still has a healing bonus) and reaving blows, a lot of skills like rally that have self heals, and awesomely fun overland and solo content for which you probably want to make your own personal ideal build, how can you really expect people to focus purely on tanking and healing?

What is relevant is taunting, but if "slotting a taunt" is all people are asking to compensate for fake tanking then maybe it's time to rethink the taunt mechanic in ESO and not connect it to a skill.

I agree that whenever you get to veteran DLC content it's always better to have a "standard group", but I haven't had any issues in Veteran Pugs and for most players, by the time they start doing that content, they've joined a Guild or made some friends with which you can communicate on who brings what to the table.

spartaxoxo · January 2022

MoreTune wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

I agree.

I fully expected everyone’s responses thus far. Not surprised, hence the title of my post. Getting called an “elitist” and “big ego” was the icing on the cake. Not sure how that plays into my post, but I guess that’s the meta “group think” on the forums.

Double standard in this community in regards to tanks/healers versus DPS. Fake tanks and healers get posted regularly But no one ever mentions low dps turning a 5 minute clear to 15 or 20 minutes. I consider this fake dps if I can do more damage as a fully kitted tank or healer in full support gear.

And god forbid if you call someone a fake dps, you’ll be considered an elitist or egotistical. But mention fake tanks and fake healers, immediately get upvotes and agreement.

Fake dps are a problem and you can search my history and see I complain them too pretty regularly. I have wrote very long posts about the prejudicial and toxic double standard that dps don't even have to try to focus on dps.

But two wrongs don't make a right. You're legitimately being a disrespectful and toxic if you don't slot a taunt.

You are punishing people randomly for things they did not do. And you're lying to cut someone else in line and make them do what you said you'd do.

And that's rude no matter what anyone else is doing, and if you complain about fake dps while doing it, it's also wildly hypocritical. Because you're complaining about others not doing their role, while you won't do something even easier to accomplish to do yours.

I always slot a taunt when I fake on my dps and I rant about fake dps, and I always try my personal best to dps. It's not hard to try in groups.

EF321 · January 2022

Jusey1 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

yeah, that's the lamest excuse ever. you can get 3 skyshards in no time at all. don't try and tell me your amazing main who solo's all these dungeons can't find 2 skill points or that you don't have undaunted levelled on your main.
just slot the skill if you're queueing as tank.
it's not hard or complicated.

I just haven't gotten to it yet because I keep putting my skill points into my passives, such as crafting and world skills. I been heavy focus on getting all of those back up to where they should be so I do everything on my to do list, so to say, than to worry about a single ability. That's my choice. I am choosing to prioritize other things over the Undaunted stuff right now because I do not need the Undaunted stuff right now. Inner Fire is a good ability, but it is not required.

PROTIP: YOU CAN GATHER SKILLPOINTS WHILE IN DPS QUEUE

Gleitfrosch · January 2022

Faking a role and not using any skills from that role is absolutely selfish and the lowest of low social behavior.

Player should only get able to enter a dungeon as a specific role, if they have the role skills slotted (e.g taunt as a tank). The bar should be locked while in the dungeon to avoid swapping the skills and if the player does not use the role skill in the dungeon/combat, he should get a one hour cooldown on queueing for the next dungeon.

Gleitfrosch · January 2022

MoreTune wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

I agree.

I fully expected everyone’s responses thus far. Not surprised, hence the title of my post. Getting called an “elitist” and “big ego” was the icing on the cake. Not sure how that plays into my post, but I guess that’s the meta “group think” on the forums.

Double standard in this community in regards to tanks/healers versus DPS. Fake tanks and healers get posted regularly But no one ever mentions low dps turning a 5 minute clear to 15 or 20 minutes. I consider this fake dps if I can do more damage as a fully kitted tank or healer in full support gear.

And god forbid if you call someone a fake dps, you’ll be considered an elitist or egotistical. But mention fake tanks and fake healers, immediately get upvotes and agreement.

Why should someone fake dps? Never heard of a healer or tank who intentionally queued as dps to extend his wait time.

Some dps are low, but ever considered that these players are new or queue for a reason to normal dungeons? Maybe they also queue because they want the gear to do more dps?
Expecting only high or even medium dps is wrong, there are different players and as long as the dungeon can be finished, everything is OK.
If you want to do them fast, play pre-made.

Brrrofski · January 2022

Slot a taunt.

Put on pale order.

Nobody will care that you're then full DPS.

That does the job for a random normal.

Larcomar · January 2022

You're setting up a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between going in as a pure dps - without even a taunt - vs going in as a full tank and zero dps. You can both be a good enough tank and a good enough dps to clear a dungeon quickly with some very minor changes to your build. For easy stuff, maybe just slot inner light + caltrops for breach. For tougher stuff, run an offensive fb and a defensive bb.

seldomseenkd · January 2022

Slot a taunt and don't kite bosses off your own group's AoEs. Apart from that I don't care how aggressively you build your tank.

Yes, 4 experienced DDs is the most effective group setup for normals. But how often do you get that setup when running the daily crapshoot for transmutes? Optimise your build around the most probable with enough flexibility built in to fully exploit favourable outliers.

Troodon80 · January 2022

Nogawd wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

4 dps in a normal will smoke any other combination.

That is where the debate should end.

Want to kick "fake" roles, then bad dps should as well.

You've not met many new players, have you? Four "real" DDs all doing a collective 4k will not smoke any other combination. I can assure you of that. To think otherwise is to only be self-absorbed in one's own skill and assume others are the same. What you mean is, "4 DPS, of an arbitrary skill level decided by me, in a normal will smoke any other combination."

Even if we were to assume you got grouped with them and their DPS went up accordingly, if I were there on my tank I would be doing more than 4k. So 1DD + 1 tank combination is better. Plus, you've got buffs and debuffs. So, again, fallacious statement.

Buffs help matter more in vets.

Normals again, irrelevant.

Of course buffs and debuffs matter more in veteran, but what you're doing is inferring that everyone is doing 100k DPS and that everything will die in two seconds. If that were the case, and in such cases, I fully agree. But you're presenting fallacies and stating it as a fact. It's as though you don't even know the average casual player. If you get into a random normal with three other DDs all doing 1k-5k each, it would be better for one of those to be a tank or healer doing the same 1k-5k and applying buffs and debuffs. There is only a benefit to inserting a support in that scenario because nothing is otherwise lost and you only get a net gain.

So here, relevance, or irrelevance, is your opinion. I'll stick to the facts, thanks.

lunaslide · January 2022

In the simplest possible terms, what you are doing when you queue as a fake tank or a fake healer not prepared to do the bare minimum those roles require is you are lying to get a spot in a dungeon group faster than another person who was truthful about their role.

orgin_stadia · January 2022

Well, reading these forums' endless complains about speedrunners, RND's aren't really for completing fast! They are for doing quests, reading and listening to the amazing and interesting dialogue, reading books, looting every chest, crates and sack you can find and ofc generally just hang around randomly for minutes at a time at different places of interest. And most importantly to just walk around slowly to enjoy the scenery. And all that over and over again! (Pro tip: Drop the quest just after killing the last boss, that way you can do it again!)

So stop with the fake tanking pleeze!

;-)

Being serious though I do agree that if you queue as tank you should at least perform the minimum of that role. The DD's have queued forever, you have not, so that is what you have to pay for the reduced queue-time.

Heals_With_Orbs · January 2022

interesting post, I have mixed views about this as a healer. If you sign up for a role as a tank, then you are responsible for protecting the group from damage, perhaps you can do that, but from my 5 years playing experience many cant and are just selfish squishy dps guys queuing for quick xp, and they often leave the group vunerable, especially new players in particular when I boss suddenly turns on them.

Maybe for normals its not such a big deal, but veterans, absolutely no - seen too many horrors with fakes

One thing I dont think people may have considered here - does this paint a good picture to the whole eso community "hey Im a pretend tank, this is ok"?