Mist Form nerf when?

PvP_Exploiter · January 2022

It was used for one boss fight in PvE so it gets all mitigation removed.
Yet it remains an uncounterable crutch in PvP, only counter being negate.

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.

xylena_lazarow · January 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.

Remove the cast delay and let us sprint while in mist, and you have a deal.

NegativeVibes · January 2022

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.[/quote]

Considering the caster becomes basically useless and can only move around while their magicka and health go down, [Snip].

[Edited for minor bait]

PvP_Exploiter · January 2022

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.

Remove the cast delay and let us sprint while in mist, and you have a deal.

Cast delay - sure makes no difference
Sprint - no chance

NegativeVibes wrote: »

Considering the caster becomes basically useless and can only move around while their magicka and health go down, [Snip]

Basically costs no magicka with S3 Vamp and infused reduced cost
Barely take any damage so health doesn't go down.

[Snip]

[Edited for removed content]

Brrrofski · January 2022

Well if it actually worked, it might be a good skill...

And there's two counters.

Either just stop chasing them - they're running away, so you don't have to fight them.

Stick on them and when they come out (which they'll have to eventually), CC and burn them.

And as for it being so cheap, that's with giving up jewellery traits and enchants. Which weakens their build elsewhere. Reduce cost overall is weaker than regen, as it has less modifiers and the more you put into reduce cost, the more diminishing the returns.

I don't even see many people spamming mist these days. Maybe because it's broken. But also, all it usually does is prolong your death by a little bit.

Most people I know run race against time over it.

PvP_Exploiter · January 2022

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well if it actually worked, it might be a good skill...

And there's two counters.

Either just stop chasing them - they're running away, so you don't have to fight them.

Stick on them and when they come out (which they'll have to eventually), CC and burn them.

And as for it being so cheap, that's with giving up jewellery traits and enchants. Which weakens their build elsewhere. Reduce cost overall is weaker than regen, as it has less modifiers and the more you put into reduce cost, the more diminishing the returns.

I don't even see many people spamming mist these days. Maybe because it's broken. But also, all it usually does is prolong your death by a little bit.

Most people I know run race against time over it.

It is pretty limited to DKs, Templars & Wardens (however rare they are) as they have means of sustain outside of recovery.

DK = Burning, especially with Charged. This has been meta for a while now
Templar = Rune
Warden = Netch

However if the only counter is "stop fighting them" then that is easily the most broken ability no? Even Streak and Cloak don't have that little counters.

Vevvev · January 2022

I stutter step sprint after people in Mistform and apply as many damage over time abilities on them as I can. If they have the Wild Hunt Ring to go faster I use gap closers or Race Against Time to overtake them and keep the pressure on. If they leave Mistform I stun them then use an Ultimate.

Mistform if your target can overtake you with speed while burning you down will not save you. The thing keeping people who use Mistform alive is line of sight because in this high damage meta good luck surviving in an open field with everyone hitting you. More of a repositioning tool than a getaway ability.

malistorr · January 2022

I don't think mistform is a problem in pvp at all. I don't know if I've ever even seen someone use it to be honest.

Necrotech_Master · January 2022

i still see some people using mistform in pvp, but always seems more trolly than a real threat (like not much different than those "unkillable" tanks most people just ignore

and like others have said, 1 negate and they are basically toast (even if negate comes from npc)

xylena_lazarow · January 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

However if the only counter is "stop fighting them" then that is easily the most broken ability no?

Against normal builds, spam gap closers or a speed ability and chase them until they run out of resources. Since they can't sprint, it's pretty easy to stick to them. Against a troll tank, well, that's pointless whether they run mist or not.

Abyssmol · January 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

It was used for one boss fight in PvE so it gets all mitigation removed.
Yet it remains an uncounterable crutch in PvP, only counter being negate.

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.

Even though you get extra fire damage taken, 20% more damage taken from undaunted, zero regen in Mist Form, you are calling for a nerf to a skill that has so many negatives. You complain about the amount of damage it mitigates. I think you are focusing on the wrong skill.

For example, Cloak has 100% mitigation with Zero negatives. Try to get this one nerf then we'll talk!

PvP_Exploiter · January 2022

Abyssmol wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

It was used for one boss fight in PvE so it gets all mitigation removed.
Yet it remains an uncounterable crutch in PvP, only counter being negate.

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.

Even though you get extra fire damage taken, 20% more damage taken from undaunted, zero regen in Mist Form, you are calling for a nerf to a skill that has so many negatives. You complain about the amount of damage it mitigates. I think you are focusing on the wrong skill.

For example, Cloak has 100% mitigation with Zero negatives. Try to get this one nerf then we'll talk!

Cloak has so many counters, and people do try and get it nerfed. Yet a skill with no counters is fine?
Do not understand these players.

malistorr · January 2022

Mist form does not let anyone heal or even restore resources. It's easy to just hang out or follow the person and they will have to leave that form within 15-seconds or less most likely. It would seem like a silly thing to nerf IMO but I've never even used it.

axi · January 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well if it actually worked, it might be a good skill...

And there's two counters.

Either just stop chasing them - they're running away, so you don't have to fight them.

Stick on them and when they come out (which they'll have to eventually), CC and burn them.

And as for it being so cheap, that's with giving up jewellery traits and enchants. Which weakens their build elsewhere. Reduce cost overall is weaker than regen, as it has less modifiers and the more you put into reduce cost, the more diminishing the returns.

I don't even see many people spamming mist these days. Maybe because it's broken. But also, all it usually does is prolong your death by a little bit.

Most people I know run race against time over it.

It is pretty limited to DKs, Templars & Wardens (however rare they are) as they have means of sustain outside of recovery.

DK = Burning, especially with Charged. This has been meta for a while now
Templar = Rune
Warden = Netch

However if the only counter is "stop fighting them" then that is easily the most broken ability no? Even Streak and Cloak don't have that little counters.

I wouldnt be so sure about that last phrase. Cloak and streak on its own may have counters but classes who have them have things in their toolkits to work around said counters, often rendering most of these counters weak or even useless.

xylena_lazarow · January 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Yet a skill with no counters is fine? Do not understand these players.

I explained counters to mist above. Maybe your problem is with troll tanks in general, not just the mist skill?

Kwoung · January 2022

I haven't seen mistform being used much at all anymore, except maybe by troll tanks who suddenly realize they aren't up against a bunch of zerg noobs, are about to die, and are attempting a getaway. Which generally doesn't work out for them regardless. It used to be fairly common, but that day came and went a while back.

soniku4ikblis · January 2022

NegativeVibes wrote: »

Deserves a nerf to the amount of damage mitigation it provides.

Considering the caster becomes basically useless and can only move around while their magicka and health go down, [Snip][/quote]

At the moment, Living Dark is giving Mist Form mitigation it should not be giving. [Snip]

[Edited for bait]

soniku4ikblis · January 2022

Kwoung wrote: »

I haven't seen mistform being used much at all anymore, except maybe by troll tanks who suddenly realize they aren't up against a bunch of zerg noobs, are about to die, and are attempting a getaway. Which generally doesn't work out for them regardless. It used to be fairly common, but that day came and went a while back.

Its still common enough that it is still a problem.Just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it is not there.

Kwoung · January 2022

soniku4ikblis wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I haven't seen mistform being used much at all anymore, except maybe by troll tanks who suddenly realize they aren't up against a bunch of zerg noobs, are about to die, and are attempting a getaway. Which generally doesn't work out for them regardless. It used to be fairly common, but that day came and went a while back.

Its still common enough that it is still a problem.Just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it is not there.

Well I only play in Cyro, so can't really talk to IC or BG's, just that it is much rarer in Cyro than a while back.

Rhaegar75 · January 2022

Mist form is hardly overturned: its own toolkit suggests there are some significant drawbacks from using the skill....more than enough and no nerf required.

In this discussion there are already lots of relevant suggestions with regards to countering MistForm it...L2P issue in my opinion

HiImRex · January 2022

1. Mistform is one of the highest costing abilities in the game because it locks all regen.

Let's say you have 1200 mag and 600 stam regen on your character sheet. Most people run higher.

Staying in mistform for 4 seconds will cost you 2400 mag, 1200 stam, as well as the base cost of the ability x4 vs. if you never used mistform in the first place.

This is really expensive considering Mistform is just a more mobile block, with the downside of not being able to cast while enjoying the mitigation. 4 seconds of mistform not only has direct costs, but also incurs opportunity costs in that during those 4 seconds you've essentially done nothing but hold block--which sets you behind not only in resources but buff / debuff management and healing.

2. Mistform is the slowest form of kiting there is.

Since you can't sprint in mistform, it will ALWAYS be slower than anyone sprinting with major expedition. Actually, a stam sorc sprinting with minor expedition should be faster than mistform.

I'll trade the stam I use sprinting for the resources the mistform user is burning any day. In fact, the resource trade is so good, you can waste a couple streaks, topplings, or what-have-you to make your chase a little easier.

Of course, if you're spamming an expensive gap closer over and over, not renewing buffs, not healing, not light attacking, and you gas out before the guy in mistform does, that's something you can avoid by learning to play better.

3. ESO pvp is not about who can win in a single trade.

That would make it an extremely boring and casual game determined mostly by numbers on your stat sheet and who crits more when.

ESO pvp is mostly about making good trades. If you know how Mistform works, what you can and can't do in Mistform, then you can make the right decisions and trade a net positive. This requires a lot of experience, knowledge, and practice that allows you to fight someone for 20-30 seconds and get a good read on their build and capabilities based on how much damage they put out, how hard they are healing, how much mitigation they have, how long they can hold block, and any visual effects from sets they might be wearing.

But this kind of depth and complexity is what has kept ESO pvp alive despite it being an old game with two really bad years of performance. I encourage you to keep at it, learn and improve. Once you hit a certain level of play, Mistform is not OP, it's just one of a couple different ways to build your character for pvp, with each way providing distinct trade offs.

gl

katorga · January 2022

Wait, mist form actually works in pvp?

It fails half the time I try to cast it in Cyrodil. Not being able to rely on it actually functioning is nerf enough in my opinion.

malistorr · January 2022

I've never even tried to use it and haven't seen anyone else use it either. This is in 1,000ish hours of playing in no-CP Cyrodiil. Since heavy attacks have been broken for a month and I have firing other skills as well at times I think there are much bigger problems for ZOS to fix than a skill that is barely even used in PVP at all, and isn't OP even if it was used.

IncultaWolf · January 2022

It's been nerfed several times, and now it's completely useless in pve, no more nerfs. If you want a hard counter to mist, try using oblivion damage sets, they ignore all mitigation in the game and I've killed many people in mist using them.

Kwoung · January 2022

katorga wrote: »

Wait, mist form actually works in pvp?

It fails half the time I try to cast it in Cyrodil. Not being able to rely on it actually functioning is nerf enough in my opinion.

You just described every single skill in Cyrodiil, not casting is not unique to any skill, it happens to all of them.

HiImRex · January 2022

Kwoung wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Wait, mist form actually works in pvp?

It fails half the time I try to cast it in Cyrodil. Not being able to rely on it actually functioning is nerf enough in my opinion.

You just described every single skill in Cyrodiil, not casting is not unique to any skill, it happens to all of them.

No, he’s right. Mistform has an extra layer of not working even when other abilities are.

Zekka · January 2022

I use it and it's true, when you build for it with some speed (swift, cp, wild hunt) and some wards like imperium/mother ciannait it can become a massive defensive carry.
But it's mainly the cost that makes it so strong and so spammable, back when there were not so many ways to get movement speed and mist form was a 4k spell it was considered a poor skill that just delayed the inevitable.
It should go back to the fixed 4 seconds 4k mag skill it was before the greymoor rework and not the 1k mag/s that can be reduced to nothing (especially since everyone and their mothers in PvP is a vamp stage 3 for another overperforming vamp perk, Undeath) channeled skill it is now.

Edit: You know what, disregard what I said, mist form is fine as long as streak and cloak are the way they are.

katorga · January 2022

HiImRex wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Wait, mist form actually works in pvp?

It fails half the time I try to cast it in Cyrodil. Not being able to rely on it actually functioning is nerf enough in my opinion.

You just described every single skill in Cyrodiil, not casting is not unique to any skill, it happens to all of them.

No, he’s right. Mistform has an extra layer of not working even when other abilities are.

Yes. It does not work even when it does "cast" normally. Totally hit or miss. Blastbones is the same for me. If it does cast, it may still not function.

The server has to sync every player client within a certain radius of your character, and it cannot reliabily do so. If my client says I am in mistform, and player X's client says I am not in mistform, it seems to be RNG which client wins. There are some skills that seem much more sensitive to that than other skills.

PvP_Exploiter · January 2022

The rarity shouldn't be a factor. More people use Mist Form than cheats/macros/scripts yet you see several threads blow up about those topics. Mist Form is literally a bigger issue in PvP

Zekka wrote: »

I use it and it's true, when you build for it with some speed (swift, cp, wild hunt) and some wards like imperium/mother ciannait it can become a massive defensive carry.
But it's mainly the cost that makes it so strong and so spammable, back when there were not so many ways to get movement speed and mist form was a 4k spell it was considered a poor skill that just delayed the inevitable.
It should go back to the fixed 4 seconds 4k mag skill it was before the greymoor rework and not the 1k mag/s that can be reduced to nothing (especially since everyone and their mothers in PvP is a vamp stage 3 for another overperforming vamp perk, Undeath) channeled skill it is now.

At least you understand the problem before the irrelevant edit. Thank you.

Zekka · January 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

At least you understand the problem before the irrelevant edit. Thank you.

It's not irrelevant, I agree that mist form allows some players to be obnoxiously hard to kill and I stated the reason why (the greymoor cost change). But my opinion is that if you want to nerf mist form, fine but also do something about the two other carries that are cloak and streak that allow bad players to survive much longer than what they should be allowed to. And at least all classes have access to mist form.