The Fake Tanks and Healers have gotten so bad, I don't even want to play anymore.

svendf · December 2021

peacenote wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sigh. I feel yo pain playa.

I think punishment is perhaps the wrong way to approach this.

Here's what I would suggest. Setup like a ratings system for at least each account (or character). And then, because its personal info, give each player the ability to opt-out. Rate each run 1-5 Crowns (Stars). And then give them a special rating for finishing the run. So we can see who has consistently demonstrated they are into finishing vs dropping out and looking for carries.

So once that's done, you now have two types of players and that will tell us all we need to know. This system can be setup to be discrete yet provide the public with some basic info to go on without being too intrusive. Yet, remember the player could still opt out, and we will know that they have intentionally decided not to share with us.

At least this way, you get some idea who you are working with.

Ha. I had been thinking about this, somewhat along the lines of how ratings work with Uber and Lyft.

The bottom line is, everyone is expecting ZOS to fix a PEOPLE problem. It is kind of unreasonable, and adding punishments or restrictions to a game seems... not fun?

Also, the problem is that people are LYING (fake) or new/inexperienced (bad), which can apply to all roles and it is not right to punish the latter who are learning in an attempt to eliminate the former. And it would be almost impossible to distinguish between the two in an automated way.

But why do people fake roles? It is because, in their mind, it is the fastest way to get a reward. Rewards and best use of time is what motivates people.. So, ZOS could remove the rewards or add another reward system that encourages people to not lie and get better at their role.

Introducing... the kudos system! Similar to trading gear, it could be active from the moment a group kills the last boss in an encounter through the next 15 min/hour/2 hours. Could work in Trials too. It could be as simple as an idea that your team mates can give you a thumbs up or it could get more nuanced, where they could choose "great tanking!" or "nice explanations!" Upvotes should give an immediate reward (a reward box, transmute crystals, crowns, gold, chance for motif), but maybe you can only earn one of those every few hours, and also build towards achievements added in game that have cool rewards. Upvotes are anonymous, but players could be given the option to show and brag about their score in some way.

ZOS could try to keep people who know each other from gaming the system by not allowing upvotes from people on your friends list but honestly I don't think it's necessary. This idea is about reducing toxicity and encouraging honesty so if it results in more people making friends and creating pre-made groups, that's fine too.

It won't solve everything because some people won't care, but its existence would be a carrot to be more considerate and would raise awareness of expectations for people who are learning.

Any punishment, any role vetting, or role eliminating in the dungeon queue is likely to cause as many problems as it solves. In a game played with others, we must accept that some folks will lie and some won't be good at their roles. ZOS cannot fix human nature. But they might be able to reward desirable behavior, or at least in this case give us the tools as a community to reward each other.

By using thumbs up or down you will activate the people, who believe meta is the way to go. If you don´t play in the gear they want you to it´s thumbs down. Same goes for, what you put on your bars. Healers and tanks will be in focus here.

The problem is people "insist" to role out dds. Fake tanks is not about few tanks. It´s about being interested in playing more than "one role". The que problem is a player created problem.

You get nine toon slots. Create 3 dds, 3 tanks and 3 healers. Then learn these roles and be proud of your diversity and being a all rounded player in ESO. The most skilled player´s I come over in ESO are player´s, who play all roles.

Yes! There are fewer tanks and healers. This is because the focus these roles have on them, put on them by people, who should mind their own business and stick to their own role. Im not saying giving people advice are wrong. What Im saying is don´t confuse the others play by your own. If you don´t play tank or healer, let those, who do be the advise to other´s new to those roles or would like to get into more spicy content.

There are more tanks and healers in ESO you could imagine, thet stay away and think twice, before roling out another one, because of, what´s going on in the leveling process.

There is only "one way" solving this. Lock tanks and healer to speciifics required for those roles. Get rid off speedrunning through dungeons.

That said. That doesn´t mean you as a tank can`t have a dps back bar or on a healer, a dd set and healer set combined. To that you can add a front bar "healer" and dps back bar. What´s important here is, you need to be "able" to fullfill your role. Everything else is learning.

As it is now. New player´s are being put off, out run by self entitled "look at me" don´t have the time (got 9 ot 18 dds), player´s and not to forget "please carry me". Some even leave ESO or stay with overland quests. If people role out 9 dds, it´s on them "not" on other´s. New and other player´s are getting punished as it is now and have to stop.

No rewards change will change that as some think to beleive or wish, for their own gain.

Now! All that said. You should be able to do, whatever you want to do in your own "premade groups". Not! When using a public tool as dungeon finder, where people are in there as a new player or leveling, learning a role.

Last. ZOS can fix it and have to put their mind to it. Maybe they are on that road by doing it step by step.

Cheers

Fizzyapple · December 2021

As a DD I know the value a real tank brings to the table (and healers). No DD that knows their class well will ever say that they don't benefit tremendously from having a good tank onboard. I have gotten to a point where if a real tank is in my group I thank them at the start of the dungeon just for existing. Once our tank said something positive to me about my DPS and my retort was simply, "I couldn't have done that without the help of an excellent tank." To all you real tanks out there.. thank you

hexnotic · December 2021

Fizzyapple wrote: »

As a DD I know the value a real tank brings to the table (and healers). No DD that knows their class well will ever say that they don't benefit tremendously from having a good tank onboard. I have gotten to a point where if a real tank is in my group I thank them at the start of the dungeon just for existing. Once our tank said something positive to me about my DPS and my retort was simply, "I couldn't have done that without the help of an excellent tank." To all you real tanks out there.. thank you

excellent tanks are my favorite type of people

Succuby · December 2021

The best option that will 100% work is restrict all players who want add some restrictions for other players for random dunguans from random dunguans.

Want restrictions - go and gather your own group

May be no one even will play with you. Just check it - how good your ideas are.

Me as example is good with current system.

If you are not - gather your own group and be happy, but away from our random dunguans

Troodon80 · December 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

So if you want to get the DLC dungeons done, especially on Veteran mode, I highly recommend you just create a tank yourself and start playing it until you get good enough you can handle them. Because it's the only reliable solution I've found.

Again, this sort of argument falls under the circular type. The advice of "go make a tank" is all well and good, and I support the idea of people playing more than just one role, but when you do and you get into veteran content and the group DPS is 5k with you doing 50%+ of it, no "real" tank wants to sit through that, especially in DLC content, wasting hours of their lives essentially carrying the group. And not everyone wants to because of pressure, expectations, responsibilities, or any number of other reasons.

Those people who take the advice and make a "real" tank are then put off by the experience and either go back to playing DD, they go find other players to do group content with, thus taking them out of the more general backfill queue system, or they look for ways to optimise their own damage at the cost of actual group support (sets, abilities, etc.) without fully understanding what is gained or lost.

Now you're still at a loss for "real" tanks in the queue. Almost all the recommendations made by DDs lead back to this, because the issue is more nuanced than "just get more real tanks in the queue." As a tank main, my answer is "just get more real DDs who can pull their weight." You can see where this sort of debate doesn't go anywhere. This is also why these discussions always come back to the same basic points.

In my eyes, as a real tank, maybe others will agree or disagree, there are a number of things contributing to the "fake" role issue:

"Real" tanks leave the queue
- Because of atrocious DPS and either find friends who can do damage in order to do group content or make a DD, which is another common suggestion for people who main tanks given by DDs; ironically compounding the "fake" role issue
  - Why is damage so low?
    - Contributing factors such as gear choice and CPM, along with CP and experience
  - Can the damage be more balanced so that there is less of a gap between floor and ceiling, without impacting the ceiling in a huge way (i.e. maintain a skill gap where putting in actual effort is rewarded)?
- "Harassment"
  - Not very common, but comments such as "it's literally meta" can get thrown around if you're not playing exactly the way another player thinks you should be and isn't exclusive to DDs
- People just don't like the playstyle for X reason
- Lack of respect in general towards support roles; shown also in the way that DDs don't want to hear the complaints of supports in these sorts of topics, also in the discussion about "bad" vs. "fake" DDs, different standards of expectation for DDs than supports
DDs are queuing as tank
- Impatience; in order to get faster queue times
- Under the assumption that there will be at least three DDs, maybe even four
- Dungeons will go faster
- Faster queue times and faster dungeon runs means faster rewards
- In response to "shortage," because of first point, a compounding issue;
  - The assumption that this is simply transmutation geodes is a perpetuated misconception and a misunderstanding of how the random dungeon finder works
  - I've seen any number of people just farming gear for stickerbook, or gear in general, and are not there because of the random daily dungeon; to endorse removal of rewards for doing random dungeons would also need to see loot drops removed
New players are queuing as random roles
1. Not understanding their roles
2. By default, your role is DD; which would indicate that the potential for a "fake" DD is just as high as a "bad" DD because they've just not realised how the system works
3. Purely anacdotal, but I've seen any number of healers or DDs with one-hand and shield as well as a taunt, because they're playing as a "paladin" style character, being both tank, healer, and DD, which doesn't really work in this game; the entire dungeon ends up as a taunt fight because the "real" tank and the other player
Healers feel unneeded or surplus to requirement, even in most veteran DLC
- DDs feel they can, as such, fill this role with little detriment to the group overall
- Newer players or, more broadly, players who are unfamiliar with their role are forced to adapt to a lack of external healing; which generally isn't a massive issue (which by itself is also an issue) because of the potency of self-heals and shields
  - Which further makes healers feel unneeded

This is not a comprehensive list, but as you can probably see from some of these points this is not an issue specific to the dungeon finder and are multiple contributing factors that cannot be fixed by "making a tank." Making a tank assumes a couple things:

DPS miraculously improves overnight and there's no real gap between floor and ceiling
- Or that you're happy with terrible DPS
That in so making a tank you suddenly have less "fake" tanks

#1 isn't feasible, nor particularly desirable as it removes "skill" from the game, and #2 will happen regardless of how many real tanks are in the queue because some people are simply impatient, inconsiderate, entitiled, or feel that they could otherwise do a better job (often without any malicious intent). I could write a thesis on this, but at the end of the day this is not a dungeon finder issue. It's a human/community issue.

It is only a dungeon finder issue insofar as ESO gives players vastly more freedom than just about any other MMO and does not fit a rigid Trinity style.

There are a few ways to "fix" this freedom... and they're all terrible because they remove the freedom that ESO offers.

Jeremy wrote: »

They really need to separate the DLC content apart from the base game content.

Dividing people among more modes won't see an increase in "real" roles. It just spreads the game population across all the modes and increases queue times.

etchedpixels · December 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

[*] The assumption that this is simply transmutation geodes is a perpetuated misconception and a misunderstanding of how the random dungeon finder works

It's a major driver in the groups I see. They want to do their 10-18 dungeons as fast as possible. They queue random, if it's a DLC they quit, and walk into a pledge, rinse repeat.

It's also the case the problem got a *lot* worse straight after the transmute change

[*] I've seen any number of people just farming gear for stickerbook, or gear in general, and are not there because of the random daily dungeon; to endorse removal of rewards for doing random dungeons would also need to see loot drops removed
[*]

Farming is a bounded problem. With the new loot system it doesn't take long to fill the sticker book entirely and then - well it's over for that account. In addition for most dungeons the good players doing sticker book fills and speedrunning do it solo or with a friend so you never see them. They'd solo randoms if that was allowed for crystals too but it's not.

It's also less bad with the dungeons people get at low levels combining with pledges because the 'fungal grotto 2 mins 30 seconds" crowd will be in vet hard mode for the 4 minute extra key version.

[*] New players are queuing as random roles
Not understanding their roles

By default, your role is DD; which would indicate that the potential for a "fake" DD is just as high as a "bad" DD because they've just not realised how the system works

Purely anacdotal, but I've seen any number of healers or DDs with one-hand and shield as well as a taunt, because they're playing as a "paladin" style character, being both tank, healer, and DD, which doesn't really work in this game; the entire dungeon ends up as a taunt fight because the "real" tank and the other player

[*] Healers feel unneeded or surplus to requirement, even in most veteran DLC
DDs feel they can, as such, fill this role with little detriment to the group overall

Newer players or, more broadly, players who are unfamiliar with their role are forced to adapt to a lack of external healing; which generally isn't a massive issue (which by itself is also an issue) because of the potency of self-heals and shields
Which further makes healers feel unneeded

It's very hard for new players to learn roles and play techniques. The streamers only cover end game in depth and trying to figure out what heal skill to use whilst running non stop after 3 speedrunners with big self heals isn't a help. Likewise trying to learn to tank when left half a dungeon behind in a sea of trash people ran through doesn't work.

I don't know what if anything the dungeon finder does to keep low levels together but it would be an enormous improvement if it tried to build groups of similarly experienced/skilled players.

Jeremy wrote: »

They really need to separate the DLC content apart from the base game content.

Dividing people among more modes won't see an increase in "real" roles. It just spreads the game population across all the modes and increases queue times.

The current experience doesn't bear this out. Right now

- when you get a DLC pug dungeon the tank quits. If it's DoM they'll quit so fast you won't even see them in the group bar
- you stand around like a lemon waiting for a second tank who then quits
- the healer quits
- everyone gives up

The only time you'll actually reliably get to do a DLC dungeon is if it happens to be a pledge, and then good luck trying to do the quest.

All the organised groups just run one low level each run (or do 3 man runs with a friend who is afk on a low level), the ones doing |PUG runs quit if they get a DLC or bad group and walk into a pledge whilst the timer runs down.

So doing something about the DLCs and the queue won't actually make it worse, because most of the division already exists, and where it doesn't it simply leads to people being left in half a group in a DLC.

FeedbackOnly · December 2021

Buff empowered ward for sorc would be an improvement

Troodon80 · December 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

It's also the case the problem got a *lot* worse straight after the transmute change

What you're saying completely ignores the fact that it was always an issue. No, it didn't get worse with the introduction of transmutes. The overall worst period of time was before transmutes when you could queue as all three roles at the same time before the implementation of transmutation geodes in 2017. This was always a problem since the very beginning. It just became a lot more noticeable because it got a lot more people into the queue, coupled with the introduction of leaving penalties.

I still remember in late 2016, I got a full group of tanks and we just disbanded at the entrance and requeued; there were also times when you'd have full groups of DDs or healers, or any combination. ZOS changed this almost a year after the introduction of transmutes, but it was always an issue. I obviously don't know the numbers, but I would wager if you calculate it as per person queuing, the ratio has likely stayed the same. Purely speculation, obviously, but you can't pretend it wasn't an issue before the introduction of transmutes. Being more noticeable because populations have increased doesn't make it worse. What would make it worse is if you actually had a higher ratio of DDs queuing as tanks compared to real tanks before and after. In my experience, this hasn't been the case.

Regardless of how you want to argue it, the result is the same: the suggestions try to remove DDs as fake tanks, and none of them will work the way those proposing them think they will work.

etchedpixels wrote: »

So doing something about the DLCs and the queue won't actually make it worse, because most of the division already exists, and where it doesn't it simply leads to people being left in half a group in a DLC.

So, for example, I'm a magDK looking for Z'en, I solo-queue for Lair of Maarselok. Because the vast majority only want to do random normal non-DLC, where do you think my queue times are?

etchedpixels wrote: »

It's very hard for new players to learn roles and play techniques. The streamers only cover end game in depth and trying to figure out what heal skill to use whilst running non stop after 3 speedrunners with big self heals isn't a help. Likewise trying to learn to tank when left half a dungeon behind in a sea of trash people ran through doesn't work.

I don't know what if anything the dungeon finder does to keep low levels together but it would be an enormous improvement if it tried to build groups of similarly experienced/skilled players.

Absolutely agree. But this isn't a dungeon finder issue. I learned in normal and eventually went to veteran when I was 250 CP. Trying to learn is a nightmare, especially for tanks and healers.

One good way to start learning is to get into a social guild and do dungeons with people who won't speed run but who will make the experience a lot more pleasant.

When you get a group of three other people from the dungeon finder, there's only the agreement to attemp to complete it. Not to help teach it. Not to do your quest. Not to get your lorebooks, or for you to loot crates and baskets. None of the suggestions made will change that.

etchedpixels wrote: »

The current experience doesn't bear this out. Right now

- when you get a DLC pug dungeon the tank quits. If it's DoM they'll quit so fast you won't even see them in the group bar
- you stand around like a lemon waiting for a second tank who then quits
- the healer quits
- everyone gives up

The only time you'll actually reliably get to do a DLC dungeon is if it happens to be a pledge, and then good luck trying to do the quest.

All the organised groups just run one low level each run (or do 3 man runs with a friend who is afk on a low level), the ones doing |PUG runs quit if they get a DLC or bad group and walk into a pledge whilst the timer runs down.

So doing something about the DLCs and the queue won't actually make it worse, because most of the division already exists, and where it doesn't it simply leads to people being left in half a group in a DLC.

What you mean is, your current experience doesn't bear it out. Experiences will vary. I only had this issue prior to transmutes, and prior to most of the DLC we have today. Whenever I queue for DLC dungeons, I'm always glad that the random queue exists because otherwise I would have to go as a premade group. To be honest, most of the time I don't even care that I might get a "fake" tank, I'm just glad that others get put into that queue. If you take people out of the DLC dungeon queue, you impact more than just yourself. Like I said, many misunderstand how the system works.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2021

There needs to be expanded filter options on the group finder. This then needs to be combined with a rep(utation) system for accounts, characters, and roles.

The filter system could have optional filters at your request. Things like:

Intent (speed run/story/No Death/All bosses/trifecta/Hard Mode/Gear farm/Open every container in the place, etc.)
Min/Max level (No one under X CP's for the intent above - the game does this on a limited note with walk-in-the-door restrictions of Norms, CP160, CP300, but this would expand on that.) Equally, a newer group of CP200's may not want a CP9000 member soloing the entire instance for them.
Roles present:
- Enforce the trinity
- Tank required
- Healer required
- Anything goes
Rep score (general)
- Similar in a way to Achievement points related to this type of content. An average of # of Dungeon runs, clears, HM's, etc. This would be a mix of account wide and character specific (See below for more detail.)
Rep score (by role)
- Like above, but with role in mind. If I've cleared something 1000 times as a tank, odds are pretty good I can tank. It doesn't automatically mean I can DPS or heal the same instance.
Rep score (specific instance)
- I've done the HM/Speed Run/No Death/Insert-thing-here for this instance. Higher this number, better odds I can repeat it.
Minimum/Maximum DPS requested (an easy to unlock item that shows a certain tier). I list this here because I know some would request this. Max is there, again, because some people want to run with similarly experienced people and don't want the carry necessarily.

Reputation score would be a combo of things:

First, it would be a hybrid of account wide and character specific.
- If I've healed content X 1000 times on other characters, but I just made a new one, pretty good odds this character can probably also hold their own, even though it may be their first attempt.
- This would only count characters that have set foot in the content. No artificial downgrades because my crafter doesn't crawl.
Some metric combo of clears, numbers of runs, tier of runs, HM's, ND's, SR's, etc. More experience, more successes, this number goes up.
- There can be a game assigned version. Successes add to it. This number only ever goes up.
  - Possible bonus multipliers/points for content that is higher than your intended level. Reductions for point addition for content you should be able to do in your sleep. (No crazy high numbers from doing FG1 norm a thousand times when you're CP1200. I'd dare say points don't get added after the first for norms if your character is vet. You're a vet. Do a vet instance.)
- There can be a player voted version. Healer kicked ass in the content? Vote them up? Faked the role, bailed in the middle for no valid reason? Vote them down. Disconnects, etc should have no effect one way or the other. (If you really want to get out of your downvote, expect to hard quit the game often.) Might even throw in a left instance/DC'd count, just for context.
  - One vote per day regarding another person. No self voting, either.
  - If you're doing your job, this number will reflect it. If you're not, or you're trying to pad your numbers by bringing a friend, it will be a very long process to 'fake' and unless you only run with your carry's, I believe it would eventually reflect the average of what's really going on. This would also prevent paid carry's from being reflected long term in the count. The one per day per character limit would also effectively filter out the occasional [snip] that purposely voted others down to be spiteful. (They'll probably get 3 negative votes to everyone else's one.)
  - If you go too far into the negatives on this one, might be a clue that the Devs need to take a look at what you're doing and see if you're trolling or whatever.
- I'd say this number doesn't apply so much for Norm, and probably shouldn't count in a negative fashion until after a certain CP (the 160/300 required to enter via queue is probably adequate.)
You'd have the option of opting out of "Show my rep," with the understanding that it would fail any filter test someone else requested.
Both the filters and the rep would be optional. Obviously, the more filters you put, the longer your wait is likely to be, but the better your odds of success once the combo does finally drop.
You could choose not to use any filters and get what we have now (or use the anything goes option), but you pretty much lose your right to complain when you truly do get what you ask for.

It would require development and tuning. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a step in the right direction to eliminate some of the nonsense we go on and on about regarding the queues, the roles, and the randoms.

I'd also like to see account linking, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. (My X'th account with my apparently new Tank/Healer/DPS that, in reality, has more playtime than the other 3 group members combined, though the CP doesn't yet reflect it.)

The specific queues would get slightly longer, but the quality would be vastly better. How much longer is it really, though, if you have to queue 10x before finally getting one that works?

[edited for profanity bypass]

etchedpixels · December 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

No, it didn't get worse with the introduction of transmutes. The overall worst period of time was before transmutes

I'm talking about the 10 transmutes per character per day for random dungeons to be clear.

etchedpixels wrote: »

So doing something about the DLCs and the queue won't actually make it worse, because most of the division already exists, and where it doesn't it simply leads to people being left in half a group in a DLC.

So, for example, I'm a magDK looking for Z'en, I solo-queue for Lair of Maarselok. Because the vast majority only want to do random normal non-DLC, where do you think my queue times are?

I would expect you will wait a lot longer, but unlike now you'll actually not get 2 people immediately leaving group on you.

If you take people out of the DLC dungeon queue, you impact more than just yourself. Like I said, many misunderstand how the system works.

The DLC dungeon queue is already happening this way for many things because everyone cheeses it or quits. Just try getting a DoM pug completion.

Troodon80 · December 2021

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There needs to be expanded filter options on the group finder. This then needs to be combined with a rep(utation) system for accounts, characters, and roles.

The filter system could have optional filters at your request. Things like:
Intent (speed run/story/No Death/All bosses/trifecta/Hard Mode/Gear farm/Open every container in the place, etc.)

Min/Max level (No one under X CP's for the intent above - the game does this on a limited note with walk-in-the-door restrictions of Norms, CP160, CP300, but this would expand on that.) Equally, a newer group of CP200's may not want a CP9000 member soloing the entire instance for them.

Roles present:
Enforce the trinity

Tank required

Healer required

Anything goes

I agree partially with this right up until the reputation system. I'm personally not a big fan of reputation systems because most can be abused in some way. I prefer to think of this along the lines of FFXIV's Party Finder. You specify intent, the type of content, difficulty, requirements, etc. You post a sort of LFG to the entire server, none of this instance stuff where you have to find just the right instance of Craglorn for that vSS PUG run that people are looking for. Or as a recruiter you have 56 million messages all wanting to join and you feel obligated to reply "Sorry, all full now" because the system shows the population.

Might look something like this:

The only strict role enforcement is what the recruiter wants. If you click on a listing, it opens another window or forwards you to a panel which gives further details and as a Join or Back button. It might check your character achievements, for example, so you can't just link a "fake" achievement if that has been requested. People posting LFGs in Craglorn often say things like "LFM 2DDs, link achievement" apparently not realising that I can link any achievement as completed, or if you don't understand how achievement links work you can get someone who does have the content to post it to you and you repost it as your own; commonly referred to as a forged achievement. It might have level or CP requirements. If you don't meet the level requirements, then the Join button will be disabled (with the option to filter out inaccessible listings entirely).

I don't really see how this could work with the current system, though it could replace be an overhaul to the current system. The caveat here is that, predominantly, the dungeons being run will be the ones where a listing has been posted. The upside? You can post a listing, too. You can set the number of people -- with a minimum of two because of dungeons like Direfrost Keep -- and you can set what roles, if you even want any specifics.

However, these all have potential impacts; server side, client side, and... community side. I could dissect my own post, but honestly the potential issues are pretty glaring already.

Troodon80 · December 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

I would expect you will wait a lot longer, but unlike now you'll actually not get 2 people immediately leaving group on you.

In recent history, the only time I've had people leave on me is when they've been kicked. I don't make a habit of kicking people, so that's beyond rare. And further back, it usually doesn't make the dungeon unable to be completed. But I suppose that's the difference in experience. What you're suggesting for me is to wait longer with no benefit. No positives. There's only downsides. What you're suggesting is "Make someone else's life harder so mine can be better."

Not much of a solution, is it?

etchedpixels wrote: »

The DLC dungeon queue is already happening this way for many things because everyone cheeses it or quits. Just try getting a DoM pug completion.

What number or percentage is "for many"? You'e mentioed DoM a couple times, but you haven't specified whether this is normal or veteran. I'm going to be presumptuous and assume it's veteran. Correct me if I'm wrong. I've cleared this many times as a PUG on veteran. Couple times I've had tanks who don't even know how to block and they die to a heavy attack on last boss. I've also done hard mode with PUGs a few times.

You also say "everyone" cheeses or quits, which is categorically false.

etchedpixels wrote: »

I'm talking about the 10 transmutes per character per day for random dungeons to be clear.

There are different transmutes from the dungeon finder?

Sarcasm aside, I know what you're referring to and I'm saying my experiences don't match with yours. Ever since the introduction of this addition to daily rewards, it has only become more noticeable with regards to "fake" roles because more people are in the queue than ever before. In real world comparisons, it's like saying "the number of traffic accidents has increased by N% since this time last year" while completely ignoring population growth in the elegible-driver age range or the number of vehicles on the road compared to that previous time; the ratios or percentages generally don't shift that much when you account for all the factors.

In order to make a valid argument you would first need the statistics of people who were queuing as far back as the first dungeon finder implementation, find out the population growth from that time, work out who was "fake" and who was "real," then compare that to the information from present day. That, however, is neither within my power or your power.

We don't have those statistics. We only have personal, purely anecdotal, experiences.

My experienes in the dungeon finder were mostly negative prior to the transmutation addition in 2017, especially with the ability to select all three roles instead of a single role. The chance you would take back in 2016 was "Hopefully this time we'll get some DDs in the group" or "Hopefully it won't be a full group of tanks this time."

The default was that all three roles were selected and the game didn't really do a good job of saying why you should pick one or two and only pick the ones you were "comfortable" with. When you queued up, you got tossed into the first available open role. Usually, queue times were instant, even as a DD, because you were now "fake" tanking or healing due to that being the first available role. Not the biggest issue because we only had Imperial City DLC and Shadows of the Hist later. The system needed the change to where it currently is. And, for example, I can only hazard that people suggesting the removal of roles weren't playing back then.

My experience has only improved after the 2017 and 2018 changes. This directly contradicts your experiences.

So what completely objective facts can we bring to the table?

Auztinito · December 2021

With the current community when it comes to parsing and dps crunching running every bit of content which creates this toxicity of players not able to do story in dungeons, do dungeons period, or told to do them solo. A rep system will not work in this community because it's punish new players for the wrong reasons. The only reason a reputation system would be implemented is to prevent griefing, harrassment, and toxicity but in retrospect. They should be banned for those anyway. So, there is no point in it.

Also, in regards to balancing the ceiling and floor. That's the only way you're going to see improvement across the board. Devs shouldn't be scared of "knee-capping" the ceiling because they are literally the problem. You can "skill gaps" but when the gap is larger than 5% then you have a major problem. Especially when group content is trivialized by the ceiling so new content gets balanced with them in mind leaving 80%+ behind in the dust. The ceiling is too high and needs to cut down by a large amount.

Tirantiel · December 2021

Where is the thread about the fake DPS?
On veteran one time, I had to as tank fight the second to last boss and all its adds/mobs and defeat it myself, because the DPS were doing very low damage. I told a friend about it and they could't stop laughing. Many people who don't seem to have full armor sets or experience seem to queue veteran just for the purple gear. But those same people don't seem to know about wearing sets, enchantments or traits. Also tested out healer on normal and i had to defeat everything because their damage was so low.

Tra_Lalan · December 2021

I hate fake tanks/healers and fake dds. But banning people or reporting players for that? Thats just too much.

The game already has a penalty for those players - you can kick them.

Please note that whenever you want to do something that requires a group of people, whether its random dungeon or playing a rockband or whatever, you must understand that every person has his individiual point of view, and their individual needs.
You cannot force other players to play the way you want, and ban them from game if they don't do so.

Reporting players when you got kicked because they didin't want to spend their time while you were reading all books in dungeons? That is just wrong and selfish my friend. If that is your playstyle find other players that have the same playstyle and do it with them.

When you enter a random group you must respect other players needs. And as the group is random, their needs are also "random". One is there only for crystals, other for quest, someone is farming gear etc. Ofcourse there can be arguments and there is a way to solve them - simple democracy. If the group decide to kick you as slow reader they will, if they are ok with fake tank they wount kick him etc. that is their freedom of choice.

I'm preety tired of seeing more and more people who just want to report everyone for almost everything that "did them wrong". Don't you realise that from other players perspective what you are doing also might be considered wrong to them? If we ban for more and more things, don't be suprised if you also get banned for something stupid one day. Lets say today we ban for fake healing, tommorow for too low dps, and the day after for dying at a boss or not wearing current meta gear.

Vulkunne · December 2021

peacenote wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sigh. I feel yo pain playa.

I think punishment is perhaps the wrong way to approach this.

Here's what I would suggest. Setup like a ratings system for at least each account (or character). And then, because its personal info, give each player the ability to opt-out. Rate each run 1-5 Crowns (Stars). And then give them a special rating for finishing the run. So we can see who has consistently demonstrated they are into finishing vs dropping out and looking for carries.

So once that's done, you now have two types of players and that will tell us all we need to know. This system can be setup to be discrete yet provide the public with some basic info to go on without being too intrusive. Yet, remember the player could still opt out, and we will know that they have intentionally decided not to share with us.

At least this way, you get some idea who you are working with.

Ha. I had been thinking about this, somewhat along the lines of how ratings work with Uber and Lyft.

The bottom line is, everyone is expecting ZOS to fix a PEOPLE problem. It is kind of unreasonable, and adding punishments or restrictions to a game seems... not fun?

Also, the problem is that people are LYING (fake) or new/inexperienced (bad), which can apply to all roles and it is not right to punish the latter who are learning in an attempt to eliminate the former. And it would be almost impossible to distinguish between the two in an automated way.

But why do people fake roles? It is because, in their mind, it is the fastest way to get a reward. Rewards and best use of time is what motivates people.. So, ZOS could remove the rewards or add another reward system that encourages people to not lie and get better at their role.

Introducing... the kudos system! Similar to trading gear, it could be active from the moment a group kills the last boss in an encounter through the next 15 min/hour/2 hours. Could work in Trials too. It could be as simple as an idea that your team mates can give you a thumbs up or it could get more nuanced, where they could choose "great tanking!" or "nice explanations!" Upvotes should give an immediate reward (a reward box, transmute crystals, crowns, gold, chance for motif), but maybe you can only earn one of those every few hours, and also build towards achievements added in game that have cool rewards. Upvotes are anonymous, but players could be given the option to show and brag about their score in some way.

ZOS could try to keep people who know each other from gaming the system by not allowing upvotes from people on your friends list but honestly I don't think it's necessary. This idea is about reducing toxicity and encouraging honesty so if it results in more people making friends and creating pre-made groups, that's fine too.

It won't solve everything because some people won't care, but its existence would be a carrot to be more considerate and would raise awareness of expectations for people who are learning.

Any punishment, any role vetting, or role eliminating in the dungeon queue is likely to cause as many problems as it solves. In a game played with others, we must accept that some folks will lie and some won't be good at their roles. ZOS cannot fix human nature. But they might be able to reward desirable behavior, or at least in this case give us the tools as a community to reward each other.

Unfort you're probably right.

Pretty cool idea though. I wouldn't mind doing it, sheesh bring it on

AvalonRanger · December 2021

Sometime dungeon grouping tools pick me up at the last combat.
I thought previous tank role may leave the group by some reason.

I took down the last boss as tank roles, but couldn't finished pledge mission.
Because, other team member had already take down target boss except last boss.

I saw other player got this problem at the mid phase of the dungeon.
This is unreasonable. Because, PUG member at the mid phase of the dungeon become totally volunteer.
Can't get the decent reward, and must replay same dungeon if pledge is important for you.

KhajiitLivesMatter · December 2021

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Sometime dungeon grouping tools pick me up at the last combat.
I thought previous tank role may leave the group by some reason.

I took down the last boss as tank roles, but couldn't finished pledge mission.
Because, other team member had already take down target boss except last boss.

I saw other player got this problem at the mid phase of the dungeon.
This is unreasonable. Because, PUG member at the mid phase of the dungeon become totally volunteer.
Can't get the decent reward, and must replay same dungeon if pledge is important for you.

what do u expect? if the quest says kill 3 specific bosses and u only kill one than obvoiusly u dont get the reward

if u only wanna go for pledges than dont spend ur time with a half finished dungoen than u should start from the beginning

cheshieer · December 2021

I started running vet dungeons with my guild master who is very patient and pushes for hm even if we wipe multiple times. Im very lucky in that regard because i get to play dungeons as intended.

But when my guildmaster is offline, im at the mercy of queues. Ive had really good dungeons with randomers. But more n more recently, i find myself tanking the dungen as a healer. I learned how to properly tank from observing my guildmaster. So i actually pick up taunt when tank gets kicked or leaves. Somehow the boss always ends up on top of me anyway when tank doesnt keep the taunt. I just stand still and take it usually because i understand that my dps puts aoe damage down. It would be nice to not have to do that though because im not built for it and i didnt plan to do that.

The fake tanks, i dont know how to fix it. But i wouldnt say that running with a guild made it better. Because my guild isnt always online and i dont want to drag people out of their way for my stupid pledge when queues exist.

WoW secured tanks and healers with spec roles. But i dont see it in eso as the game designed to be open.

svendf · December 2021

cheshieer wrote: »

I started running vet dungeons with my guild master who is very patient and pushes for hm even if we wipe multiple times. Im very lucky in that regard because i get to play dungeons as intended.

But when my guildmaster is offline, im at the mercy of queues. Ive had really good dungeons with randomers. But more n more recently, i find myself tanking the dungen as a healer. I learned how to properly tank from observing my guildmaster. So i actually pick up taunt when tank gets kicked or leaves. Somehow the boss always ends up on top of me anyway when tank doesnt keep the taunt. I just stand still and take it usually because i understand that my dps puts aoe damage down. It would be nice to not have to do that though because im not built for it and i didnt plan to do that.

The fake tanks, i dont know how to fix it. But i wouldnt say that running with a guild made it better. Because my guild isnt always online and i dont want to drag people out of their way for my stupid pledge when queues exist.

WoW secured tanks and healers with spec roles. But i dont see it in eso as the game designed to be open.

I FF14 do the same. You can´t fake que. I wish ESO would do the same.

Cheers

Iron_Warrior · December 2021

They should remove the 15min penalty at this point. Why should i get punished for not wanting to play with a fake tank? Yes i know you can kick them but it's impossible if they are with one of their friends. So i have two choices, either suffer through the dungeon or leave and get 15min penalty, fakes are completely protected.

BlueRaven · December 2021

Z

Tirantiel wrote: »

Where is the thread about the fake DPS?
On veteran one time, I had to as tank fight the second to last boss and all its adds/mobs and defeat it myself, because the DPS were doing very low damage. I told a friend about it and they could't stop laughing. Many people who don't seem to have full armor sets or experience seem to queue veteran just for the purple gear. But those same people don't seem to know about wearing sets, enchantments or traits. Also tested out healer on normal and i had to defeat everything because their damage was so low.

So they were dd’s just not very good ones.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS A FAKE TANK!!!

A fake tank is someone who has no intention of actually being a tank and signed up for the role just to cut the queue.

What you had were people who waited patiently in a queue, and did the role they signed up for, they just did not do it to your expectations.

Maybe they were new, inexperienced, or were just bad at it, but they were doing their role.

It’s not nearly the same thing as someone pretending to be a tank, just to cut the line, in the hope the group just doesn’t care and do the dungeon with no tank.

BlueRaven · December 2021

I am beginning to suspect that the best solution to this might be to either;

Make at least one boss per dungeon particularly punishing to groups with no tank. Essentially make a tank required for every dungeon.

Or;

Just get rid of the dungeon finder.

tmbrinks · December 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am beginning to suspect that the best solution to this might be to either;

Make at least one boss per dungeon particularly punishing to groups with no tank. Essentially make a tank required for every dungeon.

Or;

Just get rid of the dungeon finder.

People already have the 2nd option.

There is no need to use the dungeon finder for dungeons. We did dungeons before it existed, and you can still always form your own group if you have exacting requirements out of all members.

Facefister · December 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

Z

Tirantiel wrote: »

Where is the thread about the fake DPS?
On veteran one time, I had to as tank fight the second to last boss and all its adds/mobs and defeat it myself, because the DPS were doing very low damage. I told a friend about it and they could't stop laughing. Many people who don't seem to have full armor sets or experience seem to queue veteran just for the purple gear. But those same people don't seem to know about wearing sets, enchantments or traits. Also tested out healer on normal and i had to defeat everything because their damage was so low.

So they were dd’s just not very good ones.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS A FAKE TANK!!!

A fake tank is someone who has no intention of actually being a tank and signed up for the role just to cut the queue.

What you had were people who waited patiently in a queue, and did the role they signed up for, they just did not do it to your expectations.

Maybe they were new, inexperienced, or were just bad at it, but they were doing their role.

It’s not nearly the same thing as someone pretending to be a tank, just to cut the line, in the hope the group just doesn’t care and do the dungeon with no tank.

Fake tanks are the direct result of real tanks not queueing in anymore. You know why? Because every single DD seems to be new, inexperienced or something else.

Maybe the majority of the "DDs" should drop the "Skyrim Online" attitude and at least attempt to try to do their role properly...

KhajiitLivesMatter · December 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

Z

Tirantiel wrote: »

Where is the thread about the fake DPS?
On veteran one time, I had to as tank fight the second to last boss and all its adds/mobs and defeat it myself, because the DPS were doing very low damage. I told a friend about it and they could't stop laughing. Many people who don't seem to have full armor sets or experience seem to queue veteran just for the purple gear. But those same people don't seem to know about wearing sets, enchantments or traits. Also tested out healer on normal and i had to defeat everything because their damage was so low.

So they were dd’s just not very good ones.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS A FAKE TANK!!!

A fake tank is someone who has no intention of actually being a tank and signed up for the role just to cut the queue.

What you had were people who waited patiently in a queue, and did the role they signed up for, they just did not do it to your expectations.

Maybe they were new, inexperienced, or were just bad at it, but they were doing their role.

It’s not nearly the same thing as someone pretending to be a tank, just to cut the line, in the hope the group just doesn’t care and do the dungeon with no tank.

doesnt matter

the intetion of the players litterly dont matter in this case
only the outcome is important - and neither a bad dd or a fake tank is doing there role properly so they are equally bad

BlueRaven · December 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Z

Tirantiel wrote: »

Where is the thread about the fake DPS?
On veteran one time, I had to as tank fight the second to last boss and all its adds/mobs and defeat it myself, because the DPS were doing very low damage. I told a friend about it and they could't stop laughing. Many people who don't seem to have full armor sets or experience seem to queue veteran just for the purple gear. But those same people don't seem to know about wearing sets, enchantments or traits. Also tested out healer on normal and i had to defeat everything because their damage was so low.

So they were dd’s just not very good ones.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS A FAKE TANK!!!

A fake tank is someone who has no intention of actually being a tank and signed up for the role just to cut the queue.

What you had were people who waited patiently in a queue, and did the role they signed up for, they just did not do it to your expectations.

Maybe they were new, inexperienced, or were just bad at it, but they were doing their role.

It’s not nearly the same thing as someone pretending to be a tank, just to cut the line, in the hope the group just doesn’t care and do the dungeon with no tank.

doesnt matter

the intetion of the players litterly dont matter in this case
only the outcome is important - and neither a bad dd or a fake tank is doing there role properly so they are equally bad

It’s all about the intention of the character.

One player just wants to cut in line and does not care what the other players experience is like.

The other is just not living up to your expectations.

A separate thread could be made about more stringent requirements for some dungeons (only gold gear for example), but the fact remains that low performing dd’s are NOT doing anything against the rules. Nothing they did was in bad faith. They are just not very good at what they do.

That is not the same as intentionally doing a bad job by signing up for a role that the player has no intention of fulfilling.

Facefister · December 2021

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

Still, all those new and inexperienced DDs, which every DD seems to be nowadays, cause a dreadful experience to real tanks and healers.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There needs to be expanded filter options on the group finder. This then needs to be combined with a rep(utation) system for accounts, characters, and roles.

The filter system could have optional filters at your request. Things like:
Intent (speed run/story/No Death/All bosses/trifecta/Hard Mode/Gear farm/Open every container in the place, etc.)

Min/Max level (No one under X CP's for the intent above - the game does this on a limited note with walk-in-the-door restrictions of Norms, CP160, CP300, but this would expand on that.) Equally, a newer group of CP200's may not want a CP9000 member soloing the entire instance for them.

Roles present:
Enforce the trinity

Tank required

Healer required

Anything goes

I agree partially with this right up until the reputation system. I'm personally not a big fan of reputation systems because most can be abused in some way. I prefer to think of this along the lines of FFXIV's Party Finder. You specify intent, the type of content, difficulty, requirements, etc. You post a sort of LFG to the entire server, none of this instance stuff where you have to find just the right instance of Craglorn for that vSS PUG run that people are looking for. Or as a recruiter you have 56 million messages all wanting to join and you feel obligated to reply "Sorry, all full now" because the system shows the population.

@Troodon80 this is why I suggest two metrics for rep - one in game sources (raw numbers), one player derived.

If you make a request or see someone join and there in game rep is high, but their player rep doesn't come close, it's probably a good indication of abuse and you can decide accordingly (speed up the kick, reduce the player derived rep even further.)

The work someone would have to put in to fake the number set would require multiple runs with three other people willing to lie about the other group members' validity. Could it be done? Sure. Would most people (especially those already trying to BS the system by taking fake roles) put in the time and effort? Not likely.

You'd also get the occasional spiteful downvote, but overall, I think people would rate according to actual gameplay.

If my in game rep is 1000 for a particular role, but my player reported one is 12, groups could make their own determinations as to why.

In either case, it's not intended to be a gate, but merely a tool for people to base decisions on vs the zero detail crapshoot they have right now.

Vulkunne · December 2021

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Actually that is a legitimate strat. Something I've said on numerous occasions. Because sometimes it's just so much easier to end the fight than to explain mechanics and spend time on things that they should have already been prepared for.

Also, I have builds where my WW Tank can contribute to dmg as well as the expectation for our healer is for the to contribute dmg as well when main line heals are not required.