How is the damage so high?

hcbigdogdoghc · December 2021

I still remember 80k dps being the top of the top just a year or 2 ago, right now 78-80% of people I know can hit 100k easily, top players are hitting 110-120k. Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

I just don't understand how damage is this high compare to before. ZOS nerfed top dps sets repeatedly, monster sets and proc sets got trashed, ZOS nerfed skills repeatedly (remember when daedric prey gives a 55% damage boost to pet damage?), cheesy stuffs like vampires and stranglers are nerfed, ZOS nerfed shadow the bis mundus, ZOS nerfed sustain over and over again over the years, ZOS made CP 2.0 which theoretically reduces CP dps power creep, ZOS nerfed major and minor buffs significantly (RIP major/minor force/berserk), ZOS capped crit damage to 125%, stam characters lose pen, no new combat skill lines in the past couple of years beyond vampires which is pure garbage, nothing in the game was revamped that can cause a 30-40k dps increase (pen didn't get changed etc).

So how is the damage still so high? And going higher and higher every day. We'll probably see guilds only accepting 150k dps minimum dummy parse in 2022 judging by how things are going. You can't blame bahsei and kinras being overtuned either, seeing that people can hit 90k with trash sets like scathing mage or proc sets. And fyi stam characters literally only use 1 5 piece set right now

quadraxis666 · December 2021

Folks just gitted gud my guy.

hcbigdogdoghc · December 2021

It's not like people only mastered rotation just recently, people were doing perfect rotations as far back as like 2017.

If anything ESO players should be getting worse, seeing that vet players are leaving the game enmass because of you know...various reasons, like a different game, or bad performance.

Vulkunne · December 2021

I heard they nerfed Crit Chance again so lowering the DPS is on their minds apparently.

Only thing is experienced groups will adapt, new sets will be produced along the way regardless of these changes which themselves will only serve to further push DPS thru the roof.

Consistency is yo friend.

hcbigdogdoghc · December 2021

I mean lowering dps has been on their mind for a while, but the opposite keeps on happening

Smitch_59 · December 2021

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

francesinhalover · December 2021

Meanwhile people still complain of lack of dmg on dungeons and trials.

I spent 3 hours today with a pub group on lokk dragon vss.
Where are all those 100k dps players when they are needed

francesinhalover · December 2021

Two handed is a bit overtuned atm for pve.
Plus items like kilt exist.
And some arena weapons were remastered so ppl can run on backbar and frontbar.

Vulkunne · December 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

I mean lowering dps has been on their mind for a while, but the opposite keeps on happening

Oh ok, yeah I agree.

Fennwitty · December 2021

The gap of player skill keeps getting wider, and the gameplay changes so far resulted in a high damage patch

And not skill gap in that players are getting more skilled overall. I don't think they are.

But the gap between players who do the research and practice vs. those using only in-game only information is what's widening.

Ceiling keeps raising.

EDIT: I expect it to go back down. This patch introduced a lot of changes ... but seriously everybody wearing two or three sets for DPS? Regardless of whether they're magicka or stamina??

Stuff's gonna get 'tweaked'.

Tsar_Gekkou · December 2021

Zos says they want to lower the damage to meet the floor, but they keep buffing things, and we keep finding ways/sets like Pillar of Nirn to do more damage.

Vevvev · December 2021

They added critical damage caps and damage went up. It kicked players off the builds they were using only for them to find just as strong if not stronger set combos.

LashanW · December 2021

Talking about trial dummy parses?

They added even more debuffs to the trial dummy over the past year or so. Major vulnerability and minor brittle for example.

Also, the "ceiling" always finds a way.

Tannus15 · December 2021

LashanW wrote: »

Talking about trial dummy parses?

They added even more debuffs to the trial dummy over the past year or so. Major vulnerability and minor brittle for example.

Also, the "ceiling" always finds a way.

This is a big one.

Also they made DW builds work for mag.

There is an entire meta for the highest dps on the dummy. You'll notice on the really high stam builds do things like put a low wall at their feet to interrupt the stampede animation when someone is running 2h backbar.

Grandchamp1989 · December 2021

In my opinion what we see is mostly specific builds highly optimized for parses, that tends to not being particular effective in a lot of actual content.

-Dual wield mag on dummy, in actual content they usually switch back to inferno staff.
-Kilt where if you get hit by anything you lose your bonus
-Mythics with minutes long Wind up time (and yes they wind them up before parsing)
-Front and backbar melee weapons that usually gets switched for a backbar bow or staff in actual hard content with AOEs.
-Bahsei that require you to be under 50% of your primary ressource
-They usually switch 1-2 skills out for a self heal/shield in content

Dummy parses are great, but isn't optimized for a lot of content in my opinion.
The issue is complex though, and some classes seem to maybe be more optimized than other's in melee range.

Edited: For clarification and because people made some good points.

UntilValhalla13 · December 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It is mostly cheese builds that arent particular effective in actual content.

-Dual wield mag on dummy, in actual content they usually switch back to inferno staff.
-Kilt where if you get hit by anything you lose your bonus
-Mythics with minutes long Wind up time
-Front and backbar melee weapons that usually gets switched for a backbar bow or staff in actual hard content with AOEs.
-Bahsei that require you to be under 50% of your primary ressource
-They usually switch 1-2 skills out for a self heal/shield in content

Im honestly not terribly impressed, it is mostly dummy cheese.

In actual content my 82k magsorc performs better than my 91k stamdk
In actual content im usually above people who go into actual content with their dummy cheese build.
But people are usually smart enough to post one dummy parse to their guild and then switch half the stuff out in actual hard content.

Most serious people will actually run their dummy setup, at least on console. Bahsei/kinras or tzovgin is basically mandatory. Kilt is on for all content that will allow it. If your healers are good, you don't need a shield, except for very specific instances. Its really not that difficult to play true melee in almost all content, though vas hm can be spicy at times. You just have to be a competent player and not stand in stupid.

TelvanniWizard · December 2021

I miss the good ol' days, when 30k dps was bonkers

WraithShadow13 · December 2021

Math...

They did it with math.

Some people love that stuff, so they enjoy getting in and testing to break the game. It's how weaving became a thing, instead of animation canceling. It's how meta is formed.

They just get in and work out what abilities do what, and then they hone and fine-tune it with rotations and buffs.

It's kind of insane.

I would never blame those players for breaking the game, though it IS frustrating when the devs cater to, rather than balancing it out. More so, when it starts bleeding into other aspects of the game. It just kills me that between the min-max crowd and the builds to "play my way" are just so vastly different, in terms of DPS. The game just does nothing to teach you how to do all that damage, nor do the devs do anything to balance it or bring the tanks and healers up to match it's viability.

fizl101 · December 2021

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Most serious people will actually run their dummy setup, at least on console. Bahsei/kinras or tzovgin is basically mandatory. Kilt is on for all content that will allow it. If your healers are good, you don't need a shield, except for very specific instances. Its really not that difficult to play true melee in almost all content, though vas hm can be spicy at times. You just have to be a competent player and not stand in stupid.

I run my dummy setup in my trials (yep I'm on console). I don't see the point in doing rotation 1 to get a score on a dummy, and rotation 2 in real life. Same with my gear. I want the dummy to tell me what I will realistically hit if I am on a dragon in an optimised group, not a theoretical highest based on a setup I won't use

KhajiitLivesMatter · December 2021

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

kinda obvious
the max possible dps gets higher
but random noobs stay noobs - and if u dont even try to do more dmg than ull stick at 5k
and the complains are more vocal cause if everyone does 120k dps and than someone in a pug does 10k thats a way larger diffrence then if the best ones do 20k and the randoms do 10k

etchedpixels · December 2021

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Dungeon DPS and dummy parsing are not exactly related. In a random pug dungeon there will be a lot less buffs and debuffs (far less with a fake healer, probably none at all with a fake tank as well), so nobody is getting high crit, nobody has enough penetration and so on.

A lot of folks running dungeons also don't have high end trial gear, and often don't have the right buffs or skills slotted, or use them in the right way. It's not really surprising. Anyone can do 5-10K in a dungeon with a bit of button mashing, but getting a good DPS number requires knowing a lot of extra stuff about buff/debuffs and which skills to use or slot when. None of that basic information is particularly accessible in game, or for the most part well covered outside of it.

Zezin · December 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Dungeon DPS and dummy parsing are not exactly related. In a random pug dungeon there will be a lot less buffs and debuffs (far less with a fake healer, probably none at all with a fake tank as well), so nobody is getting high crit, nobody has enough penetration and so on.

A lot of folks running dungeons also don't have high end trial gear, and often don't have the right buffs or skills slotted, or use them in the right way. It's not really surprising. Anyone can do 5-10K in a dungeon with a bit of button mashing, but getting a good DPS number requires knowing a lot of extra stuff about buff/debuffs and which skills to use or slot when. None of that basic information is particularly accessible in game, or for the most part well covered outside of it.

Did a naked run the other day with some guildies, it's pretty easy to get ~15k dps with just skills, no gear, no weapons or weapon skills, no debuffs either. Then again I'm a relatively well experienced player.

madrab73 · December 2021

Buffing damage makes players feel good. More likely then to spend money on crowns.

Was there any other reason to buff damage from staffs from 8% to 10%?

Bobby_V_Rockit · December 2021

Don’t worry, plenty of us CP1500+ players still can’t top 30k dps lol. I’m not kidding or being sarcastic, I cannot top 29k on my dummy after like 6 years XD we just don’t post as much as you guys

carlos424 · December 2021

Some other major changes include the hybridization of sets, as well as some skills and armor passives that now give weapon AND spell damage, as well as weapon AND spell crit.

carlos424 · December 2021

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Don’t worry, plenty of us CP1500+ players still can’t top 30k dps lol. I’m not kidding or being sarcastic, I cannot top 29k on my dummy after like 6 years XD we just don’t post as much as you guys

Your numbers would be much higher on a trials dummy with all the buffs. 29k on a 3m or 6m dummy isn’t that bad.

Jeffrey530 · December 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

90k as a tank? don't know that's even possible loll. Why would anyone wanna be a dd with 110-120k dd then, just blast the trials with 11 tanks/healers.

hcbigdogdoghc · December 2021

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

90k as a tank? don't know that's even possible loll. Why would anyone wanna be a dd with 110-120k dd then, just blast the trials with 11 tanks/healers.

im a tank/healer main, so i tank/heal 99% of the time and rarely parse or dps.

I can still hit 90k with a meme frost warden setup with frostbite and master ice staff.

Succuby · December 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

I still remember 80k dps being the top of the top just a year or 2 ago, right now 78-80% of people I know can hit 100k easily, top players are hitting 110-120k. Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

I just don't understand how damage is this high compare to before. ZOS nerfed top dps sets repeatedly, monster sets and proc sets got trashed, ZOS nerfed skills repeatedly (remember when daedric prey gives a 55% damage boost to pet damage?), cheesy stuffs like vampires and stranglers are nerfed, ZOS nerfed shadow the bis mundus, ZOS nerfed sustain over and over again over the years, ZOS made CP 2.0 which theoretically reduces CP dps power creep, ZOS nerfed major and minor buffs significantly (RIP major/minor force/berserk), ZOS capped crit damage to 125%, stam characters lose pen, no new combat skill lines in the past couple of years beyond vampires which is pure garbage, nothing in the game was revamped that can cause a 30-40k dps increase (pen didn't get changed etc).

So how is the damage still so high? And going higher and higher every day. We'll probably see guilds only accepting 150k dps minimum dummy parse in 2022 judging by how things are going. You can't blame bahsei and kinras being overtuned either, seeing that people can hit 90k with trash sets like scathing mage or proc sets. And fyi stam characters literally only use 1 5 piece set right now

Overperforming sets and "just for dummy-gear", peoples who do not understand the game and copy TOP groups requierments they really do not need.

You need not more than about 40k solo dps from single dd for HM of vSS fire boss as example if all goes well. But people can not pass and think DPS will saves.

Big DPS game is promoted ! So no strange that people do fake parses, some do not even understand it.

The same way on 3 in 1 trials achivment you need good DPS, but how much good ?

Do you have information what is the lowest DPS to pass 3 in 1 somewhere ?

People afraid they will not pass and look for tons of damage.

Some think that they are "such a cool players" by do dummy dps.

But a lot of people just do not have real data, but pass with 100/200/300k dps is simpler ! Thats what people think. It let you pass even if party do mistakes.

So people will always want more DPS.

It do not always help

But some times it does.

Than more people afraid and do not try with lesser dps - when it is so - than more parses of dps we will see on target dummy.

Some people understand it and start troll other players

)) Like 200k dummy dps and etc

So some sets are really overpowered, some are really hard to olay, some not.

Some are just some ones joke

Always nerf something is not some thing good.

As example Basey - will its values get nerfed ? May be.

But more fun would be if monsters and bosses drain mana - have 20% mana - ooops boss drain all - can not hit with your gear.

Thingth can be made differently, but now it is "standartization time" ... . What will be next ?

cyberjanet · December 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

I still remember 80k dps being the top of the top just a year or 2 ago, right now 78-80% of people I know can hit 100k easily, top players are hitting 110-120k. Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

If 78-80% of people you know can hit 100k easily, then you know very good players and are playing in an elite group.
There are still plenty of very ordinary players out here who don't get anything near that. Like not even half. Or even a quarter.

Succuby · December 2021

cyberjanet wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

I still remember 80k dps being the top of the top just a year or 2 ago, right now 78-80% of people I know can hit 100k easily, top players are hitting 110-120k. Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

If 78-80% of people you know can hit 100k easily, then you know very good players and are playing in an elite group.
There are still plenty of very ordinary players out here who don't get anything near that. Like not even half. Or even a quarter.

I play and love build that can do only 88k on dummy.

But people say to me that i just can not "light attacking" - that i just get some random meta gear and make parse for 100k per2 days.

It is not hard too learn, it takes me 2 days (may be 1 hour per day) to learn.

Have good gear - simpler to get such values, nothing really hard.

No one just normally learns that.

Strange words using to make it sounds harder than it is. "Wiwing" - or some thing like that. "Abra kadabra". Animation cancelling.

If translate it on normal game language - a lot of player will do it easely. They try to do that do not exist, that is a problem.

No magick "wiwing" - just press skills by calldown, global calldown on skills - so use LA or any free damage between skills.

That is all. When some "magick wiwings" appears players do notunderstand what to do. It is not as hard like it sounds. Just some people want it soundes harder than it is !