How is the damage so high?

DMuehlhausen

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Because now people feel anything below 80k is "low dps" The problem though is nobody actually does that much damage. Parsing on a trial dummy with different gear and skills doesn't mean squat to what you can do in a dungeon.

That 21M dummy has 100% up time on all debuffs and buffs, that never happens in any trial or dungeon. You also don't have to worry about group compensation where you do in a dungeon. 4 templars aren't exactly going to do great dps cause you are limited on the buffs and debuffs you're going to get.

However, and unfortuntely, everyone listens to the EJ players on what meta is and anything under their special build and gear setup they won't tell anybody is considered bad dps

Succuby

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Because now people feel anything below 80k is "low dps" The problem though is nobody actually does that much damage. Parsing on a trial dummy with different gear and skills doesn't mean squat to what you can do in a dungeon.

That 21M dummy has 100% up time on all debuffs and buffs, that never happens in any trial or dungeon. You also don't have to worry about group compensation where you do in a dungeon. 4 templars aren't exactly going to do great dps cause you are limited on the buffs and debuffs you're going to get.

However, and unfortuntely, everyone listens to the EJ players on what meta is and anything under their special build and gear setup they won't tell anybody is considered bad dps

Sorry what is "EJ player" ?

BlueRaven

Succuby wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Because now people feel anything below 80k is "low dps" The problem though is nobody actually does that much damage. Parsing on a trial dummy with different gear and skills doesn't mean squat to what you can do in a dungeon.

That 21M dummy has 100% up time on all debuffs and buffs, that never happens in any trial or dungeon. You also don't have to worry about group compensation where you do in a dungeon. 4 templars aren't exactly going to do great dps cause you are limited on the buffs and debuffs you're going to get.

However, and unfortuntely, everyone listens to the EJ players on what meta is and anything under their special build and gear setup they won't tell anybody is considered bad dps

Sorry what is "EJ player" ?

I think that is a reference to “Elitist Jerks”, but I thought that website (if it’s still around) focused on WoW.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Damage is pretty high right now, but if 80% of the people you know pull 100k on a dummy, you run with a very good group of players. That is not the norm by any stretch. Its as easy as its ever been to pull 100k, but that ability still puts you in the top few percent of Damage Dealers.

Stopnaggin

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

I mean lowering dps has been on their mind for a while, but the opposite keeps on happening

because players understand the game better than Zos does. I remember they "nerfed" Mechanical Acuity, some guy hit 140k the next day. There another guy that will show you how to parse over 200k, even though the build is nowhere near viable for actual game play.

Lumsdenml

The problem is, that with posts like this "78-80% of people I know can hit 100k easily," people begin to believe that 70-80k dps is average and a large percentage of people can now top 100K dps. By pushing this narrative, you get the majority of people thinking "wow... i can only do 20k dps, I must be bad." and don't post their videos, or parses, etc.

I'd venture to guess that the average dps has gone down in the last year or two. All you have to do is walk into any standard overland delve and wait.
You will see CP 200, 500, 1000 people take a full 2 min to take down the boss.

Deter1UK

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Don’t worry, plenty of us CP1500+ players still can’t top 30k dps lol. I’m not kidding or being sarcastic, I cannot top 29k on my dummy after like 6 years XD we just don’t post as much as you guys

Indeed, I don't ever bother trying on a dummy anymore its a: Too Boring and B: I cant sustain longer than 15 seconds

Thanks to slowing reflexes and a bit of arthritis plus having to look at the keyboard every now and again to check where my fingers are I can hit 27k according to some addon that feeds that info to the screen but no more than that. Nevertheless I can solo some dungeons on normal and both my guilds are quite happy for me to tag along as DD or Healer on base vet dungeons. There are some DLCs I simply wont do because (like frost vault) they actually trigger anxiety attacks. I'm not bothered, I play almost every day and love the game, If folks want to chase meta and worry themselves about top end stuff that's fine but that's their game not mine.

Tsar_Gekkou

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Because now people feel anything below 80k is "low dps" The problem though is nobody actually does that much damage. Parsing on a trial dummy with different gear and skills doesn't mean squat to what you can do in a dungeon.

That 21M dummy has 100% up time on all debuffs and buffs, that never happens in any trial or dungeon. You also don't have to worry about group compensation where you do in a dungeon. 4 templars aren't exactly going to do great dps cause you are limited on the buffs and debuffs you're going to get.

However, and unfortuntely, everyone listens to the EJ players on what meta is and anything under their special build and gear setup they won't tell anybody is considered bad dps

Nah, anything below 80K isn't "low damage." I just ran a dungeon with a cp1400 dps who did nothing but heavy attack with a lightning staff and cast blastbones. That's low damage. Those are the players that people are talking about.

Soulshine

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Because now people feel anything below 80k is "low dps" The problem though is nobody actually does that much damage. Parsing on a trial dummy with different gear and skills doesn't mean squat to what you can do in a dungeon.

That 21M dummy has 100% up time on all debuffs and buffs, that never happens in any trial or dungeon. You also don't have to worry about group compensation where you do in a dungeon. 4 templars aren't exactly going to do great dps cause you are limited on the buffs and debuffs you're going to get.

However, and unfortuntely, everyone listens to the EJ players on what meta is and anything under their special build and gear setup they won't tell anybody is considered bad dps

Nah, anything below 80K isn't "low damage." I just ran a dungeon with a cp1400 dps who did nothing but heavy attack with a lightning staff and cast blastbones. That's low damage. Those are the players that people are talking about.

try dds that HA with a restro staff the entire time.... 🤦‍♀️

Bobby_V_Rockit

Soulshine wrote: »

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

If DPS is so high, why do I continue to see so many complaints about low DPS in PUGs?

Because now people feel anything below 80k is "low dps" The problem though is nobody actually does that much damage. Parsing on a trial dummy with different gear and skills doesn't mean squat to what you can do in a dungeon.

That 21M dummy has 100% up time on all debuffs and buffs, that never happens in any trial or dungeon. You also don't have to worry about group compensation where you do in a dungeon. 4 templars aren't exactly going to do great dps cause you are limited on the buffs and debuffs you're going to get.

However, and unfortuntely, everyone listens to the EJ players on what meta is and anything under their special build and gear setup they won't tell anybody is considered bad dps

Nah, anything below 80K isn't "low damage." I just ran a dungeon with a cp1400 dps who did nothing but heavy attack with a lightning staff and cast blastbones. That's low damage. Those are the players that people are talking about.

try dds that HA with a restro staff the entire time.... 🤦‍♀️

Or light attack with a bow, from the doorway…

Blinx

and yet 80% of the people I know can't even hit half of that, but the people I run with we just play to have fun, not chase meta

Rory_FightingToFifty

I sort of stopped caring. Eventually I realized that Zos is going to constantly hone everything to be mediocre. They’re like the McDonalds of game design, lol. If my bow is buffed, I have two months before a nerf. If it’s debuffed, I have two months before it’s readjusted to perform exactly like it did in 2015.

I don’t really care. However, I also have a degree from a good business school, and understand how much money they’re passing up by putting out a mediocre game. (On the other hand, it’s a low risk strategy, they’re not likely to destroy the game in one update). The world loves mediocre, it’s how Walmart is a thing. So ode to ESO, you’re the best C+ Grade video game I’ve ever played.

DonHardstyle

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

I still remember 80k dps being the top of the top just a year or 2 ago, right now 78-80% of people I know can hit 100k easily, top players are hitting 110-120k. Even as a tank/healer main I can hit 90k with a freaking ice staff.

I just don't understand how damage is this high compare to before. ZOS nerfed top dps sets repeatedly, monster sets and proc sets got trashed, ZOS nerfed skills repeatedly (remember when daedric prey gives a 55% damage boost to pet damage?), cheesy stuffs like vampires and stranglers are nerfed, ZOS nerfed shadow the bis mundus, ZOS nerfed sustain over and over again over the years, ZOS made CP 2.0 which theoretically reduces CP dps power creep, ZOS nerfed major and minor buffs significantly (RIP major/minor force/berserk), ZOS capped crit damage to 125%, stam characters lose pen, no new combat skill lines in the past couple of years beyond vampires which is pure garbage, nothing in the game was revamped that can cause a 30-40k dps increase (pen didn't get changed etc).

So how is the damage still so high? And going higher and higher every day. We'll probably see guilds only accepting 150k dps minimum dummy parse in 2022 judging by how things are going. You can't blame bahsei and kinras being overtuned either, seeing that people can hit 90k with trash sets like scathing mage or proc sets. And fyi stam characters literally only use 1 5 piece set right now

You say 80% of the people you know hit 100k+, that means you either do not know a lot of people, or you know allot of good people.

As far as I know, around 50k is avarage dps right now. That's what I see being hit the most in the (newer lower experienced) guilds im in.

In the better guilds in in I see 80-100k being avarage, but there are also experienced guys. I do 105k myself. And rarely see anything higher then that ( except in eso-u)

Doing that DPS on an dummy doesn't mean you do good in trials/dungeons tho. Yes, you will see that you do an bunch more DPS then less experienced people. But DPS is not always everything.

LightningWitch

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

So how is the damage still so high?

Here's a thought experiment to give you a basic concept how this happens.

Imagine you have 4 cards. Let's use the queens, because, well, lovely ladies. You shuffle the cards, then lay them out. How these are laid out is one combination. You shuffle again, and this time, you get a different combination. And again, another. Eventually, of course, you'll start to see repeat patterns.

Now, throw in 4 more cards, using the Kings. Repeat the above, and you'll get a larger set of output.

Another 4 cards, the Aces. Same thing: more combinations.

By now, you can see what's happening. With each new addition to skills, buffs, and nerfs, people are getting new combinations to work with.

It's impossible for developers to know what impact their new changes will provide, as there's just not enough time or people to test every scenario.

However, once you release these new combinations to tens of thousands of players, *they* will find the most beneficial combination for their play style.

This has a different name to gamers: meta.

That said, though: meta means nothing to an unskilled player.

To get the maximum out of the game, meta players need to know the mechanics perfectly. They need to sustain efficiently. They understand dungeon mechanics, meaning they'll swap what they need to get the maximum output.

All this is what some guilds look for when they request a DPS parse. They're not looking for actual DPS. They know better. What the parse does provide is the player can sustain, knows their rotation, and understands the DPS is the output of this knowledge, not that it's the "best".

It really bugs me people deem these as elitists, because I don't see them this way. These are the players who have invested in this game so much, they understand it better than the developers. That's not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Without these players, there wouldn't be meta. We'd all be running around wearing whatever we want.

These are the players responsible to why most of us wear Divines in PvE and Impen in PvP. They're responsible for giving all types of players builds that help them achieve their best as they learn the game.

I actually have tremendous respect for people who go out of their way to inform the rest of us on what *could be* the best possible experience if we took the time to practice our skills and rotation.

As a long time player, I don't see myself achieving this level of a player. I'm about as casual as it gets, and I am not embarrassed to say I doubt I'm throwing 5 digit damage out even with recommended gear. I just don't care. If it takes me 10 minutes to do something someone else can in 30 seconds, meh... I'm still winning.

But for those individuals, I think they deserve to request parses as a measure people do want the best of the game.

And thus, the combinations are put to the test, new meta is released, and DPS increases.

Until the next time ZoS makes changes and the cycle repeats itself.

Oh, and on a personal note: this is why I never give a damn about the release notes of an upcoming update. By the time it's out, within weeks, these players will have new metas that works with the update as if nothing really changed.

Gotta love those guys for that.

Whiskey_JG

The answer to this thread is quite easy actually.

There seems to be limited communication between the Zos team that balances gameplay and the Zos team that designs new sets.

Case in point:
Balance team makes crit cap
Dev team makes kilt

Meme point:
Balance team says tbags will be banned
Dev team makes Spaulder of ruin

Aside from the jokes, the rework done to combat and hybridization this patch has been awesome. Honestly this has been the best patch in a very long time. With enough creativity you can make all characters work reasonably well. I hope the trend continues next patch.

Odovacar

quadraxis666 wrote: »

Folks just gitted gud my guy.

lol, I almost spit my coffee out reading this

JobooAGS

Wouldn’t an easy way for zos to slash dps is to add battle spirit to everything?

SidraWillowsky

I was thinking the same thing after looking at my Sunspire logs from last week. Prior to that, I hadn't set foot in the trial for over a year. My DPS on the dragons has doubled from where it was previously. There's no logical reason for that from a skill perspective, since I've parsed a total of *maybe* 10 times in the past year. From a skill perspective, my DPS should technically be decreasing since I'm out of practice. My gear setup is a bit stronger, but not even close to strong enough to account for the DPS increase.

I'm not really complaining, per se, but it's kind of hilarious how ZOS has consistently talked about lowering the ceiling and addressing power creep for ages, but the ceiling has grown higher, and power creep worse.

How are people who don't dedicate their lives to min/maxing doing DPS-wise? I feel like this isn't helping the people who were the supposed targets of these changes. It seems as though the increase depends heavily on group buffs, and the majority of people aren't running in organized groups that provide them with them.

ZOS keeps implementing changes that should, in theory, nerf DPS, yet DPS has been skyrocketing.

Auztinito

OP, you do realize 80% of the player base on ESO can only hit 5k-10k dps on average. If you’re sitting at 80k. I wouldn’t stress too much because you’re still completely far beyond the average player in dps.

hcbigdogdoghc

People here are missing the point of the post

I want to know why the top dps number can climb from 80k to 120k within a year despite ZOS trying to do the opposite.

Your average joe doing 5k dps in dungeons is irreverent

Sheezabeast

Do they just say they reach those numbers or are they posting those numbers? I'd wager some are being generous so they don't get replaced

Everest_Lionheart

Big Boy Deeps is the biggest trap in the game. Players get so laser focused on parsing they forget that mechs exist. Big boy deeps allows you to skip those mechs provided you know which mechs you are actually skipping.

Spoiler Alert: you aren’t actually skipping any mechs in the content where big boy deeps is required you are merely seeing the mech less often that is of course if your whole team can stay alive, keep all its buffs and debuffs active on the correct targets at the correct times while executing that flawless rotation.

In other words if you are doing 75K on a rotation you saw on YouTube that was doing 120K you still aren’t ready for vAS+2. If you are that far off the top end standing still you will be even further off when dealing with those mechs.

Now what has happened is many mid tier dps that were In the 25-40 range a year ago are finally hitting hard enough to where they don’t need a flawless rotation to complete some vet trials and hard mode dungeons. It has made more content accessible to more people and that is a good thing. Still I feel that these gaudy numbers lure people into a false sense of confidence in thinking they can just burn everything down and ignore certain mechs. A one shot is a one shot whether do pull 10k or 100k, knowing to damage a boss through a shield phase and trust your healers to mitigate the incoming damage as a result is another. Understanding that you have to pull your dots off a boss to play a mechanic instead of pushing to overlapping mechanics is yet another.

With big deeps comes big responsibility.

Jeirno

francesinhalover wrote: »

Meanwhile people still complain of lack of dmg on dungeons and trials.

I spent 3 hours today with a pub group on lokk dragon vss.
Where are all those 100k dps players when they are needed

not playing with pug groups that's for sure

AuraStorm43

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It is mostly cheese builds that arent particular effective in actual content.

-Dual wield mag on dummy, in actual content they usually switch back to inferno staff.
-Kilt where if you get hit by anything you lose your bonus
-Mythics with minutes long Wind up time (and yes they wind them up before parsing)
-Front and backbar melee weapons that usually gets switched for a backbar bow or staff in actual hard content with AOEs.
-Bahsei that require you to be under 50% of your primary ressource
-They usually switch 1-2 skills out for a self heal/shield in content

Im honestly not terribly impressed, it is mostly dummy cheese.

In actual content my 82k magsorc performs better than my 91k stamdk
In actual content im usually above people who go into actual content with their dummy cheese build.
But people are usually smart enough to post one dummy parse to their guild and then switch half the stuff out in actual hard content.

My mag dk’s cleared vrg and vka using daggers, they’re viable in plenty of content

pklemming

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It is mostly cheese builds that arent particular effective in actual content.

-Dual wield mag on dummy, in actual content they usually switch back to inferno staff.
-Kilt where if you get hit by anything you lose your bonus
-Mythics with minutes long Wind up time (and yes they wind them up before parsing)
-Front and backbar melee weapons that usually gets switched for a backbar bow or staff in actual hard content with AOEs.
-Bahsei that require you to be under 50% of your primary ressource
-They usually switch 1-2 skills out for a self heal/shield in content

Im honestly not terribly impressed, it is mostly dummy cheese.

In actual content my 82k magsorc performs better than my 91k stamdk
In actual content im usually above people who go into actual content with their dummy cheese build.
But people are usually smart enough to post one dummy parse to their guild and then switch half the stuff out in actual hard content.

I use my parse set for content, that includes kilt, daggers and bahsei. In content(vet dungeons and trials), I regularly top 100k, and I run with people who are far better than I am. You are pretty much wrong on everything you said.

Grandchamp1989

pklemming wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It is mostly cheese builds that arent particular effective in actual content.

-Dual wield mag on dummy, in actual content they usually switch back to inferno staff.
-Kilt where if you get hit by anything you lose your bonus
-Mythics with minutes long Wind up time (and yes they wind them up before parsing)
-Front and backbar melee weapons that usually gets switched for a backbar bow or staff in actual hard content with AOEs.
-Bahsei that require you to be under 50% of your primary ressource
-They usually switch 1-2 skills out for a self heal/shield in content

Im honestly not terribly impressed, it is mostly dummy cheese.

In actual content my 82k magsorc performs better than my 91k stamdk
In actual content im usually above people who go into actual content with their dummy cheese build.
But people are usually smart enough to post one dummy parse to their guild and then switch half the stuff out in actual hard content.

I use my parse set for content, that includes kilt, daggers and bahsei. In content(vet dungeons and trials), I regularly top 100k, and I run with people who are far better than I am. You are pretty much wrong on everything you said.

Edit: Some great points in here, I'll need to re-evalutate my position on it.

LashanW

Daggers are viable anywhere on DKs thanks to their extended melee range. It actually looks funny how far they can hit with melee weapons. But personally as a magsorc main I stick with staves for a lot of fights, but I still use daggers in a few fights.

Kilt is viable in a lot more content than you'd think. Remember only taking direct damage removes your stacks. Taking DoT damage does nothing. Kilt is top tier in a lot of trash fights and some bosses because DDs don't often take direct damage if the group is good. Also the stacks last a minute after combat. So it's easy to keep full stacks through the entire run. Not saying kilt is viable everywhere ofc.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Bahsei is amazing if you got time to drain your own Magicka, which ruin any real bursts.

Bahsei is very strong in any content if you can maintain control over your mag pool. Experienced players do it all the time. (little hint: don't take resource synergies unless you are about to run out of mag) Some classes can even dump magicka right before starting the fight and stay at 30-40% magicka through the entire fight.

And what's this "real bursts" you speak of and how is it related to magicka pool? Pretty much all the bursts in PvE are done through ultimates.

Grandchamp1989

LashanW wrote: »

Daggers are viable anywhere on DKs thanks to their extended melee range. It actually looks funny how far they can hit with melee weapons. But personally as a magsorc main I stick with staves for a lot of fights, but I still use daggers in a few fights.

Kilt is viable in a lot more content than you'd think. Remember only taking direct damage removes your stacks. Taking DoT damage does nothing. Kilt is top tier in a lot of trash fights and some bosses because DDs don't often take direct damage if the group is good. Also the stacks last a minute after combat. So it's easy to keep full stacks through the entire run. Not saying kilt is viable everywhere ofc.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Bahsei is amazing if you got time to drain your own Magicka, which ruin any real bursts.

Bahsei is very strong in any content if you can maintain control over your mag pool. Experienced players do it all the time. (little hint: don't take resource synergies unless you are about to run out of mag) Some classes can even dump magicka right before starting the fight and stay at 30-40% magicka through the entire fight.

And what's this "real bursts" you speak of and how is it related to magicka pool? Pretty much all the bursts in PvE are done through ultimates.

I do agree that some classes are more optimized for melee, DK with the longer reach and Templar spammable with their insane self heals..

I oversimplified it I agree with that.

etchedpixels

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

People here are missing the point of the post

I want to know why the top dps number can climb from 80k to 120k within a year despite ZOS trying to do the opposite.

Your average joe doing 5k dps in dungeons is irreverent

The game has an incredible number of combinations of sets and skills. There are more clever theorycrafters who can spend their life streaming and spotting the opportunities than ESO engineers designing stuff and trying to avoid it.

The big hybridisation change exposed all sorts of clever taking advantage of hybridisation to misuse sets that were solely balanced for one playstyle - Bahsei being the classic. A set cleverly designed to reward players who could skillfully manage their magicka level and keep it low but fight effectively is now a low skill stamina set because it can be used by a stamina toon that simply doesn't need magicka anyway and just hits something like magelight regularly.

Likewise they introduced new mythics. Belharzia's band appears to be a well balanced mythic until someone smart combined it with blood moon and some of the other light attack boosts then stuck it on a werewolf. Run that with your tank providing high empower uptime via skills or things like galenwe and .. ouch

There are loads more examples of the way folk continually out think the designers such as everyone running a bear and strategic reserve to get stupid grade self heal boosts, or the set combinations (plus bear) that can take you to around 4k continuous passive self heals (or over 7K when using meditation)

AuraStorm43

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It is mostly cheese builds that arent particular effective in actual content.

-Dual wield mag on dummy, in actual content they usually switch back to inferno staff.
-Kilt where if you get hit by anything you lose your bonus
-Mythics with minutes long Wind up time (and yes they wind them up before parsing)
-Front and backbar melee weapons that usually gets switched for a backbar bow or staff in actual hard content with AOEs.
-Bahsei that require you to be under 50% of your primary ressource
-They usually switch 1-2 skills out for a self heal/shield in content

Im honestly not terribly impressed, it is mostly dummy cheese.

In actual content my 82k magsorc performs better than my 91k stamdk
In actual content im usually above people who go into actual content with their dummy cheese build.
But people are usually smart enough to post one dummy parse to their guild and then switch half the stuff out in actual hard content.

I use my parse set for content, that includes kilt, daggers and bahsei. In content(vet dungeons and trials), I regularly top 100k, and I run with people who are far better than I am. You are pretty much wrong on everything you said.

Im sorry but im not sold.
It doesnt Sound terribly optimized if you take that setup with you everywhere.

AS+2 is extremely melee unfriendly
Stone Garden hm literally makes the kilt useless as you get hit by something every few seconds
Bahsei is amazing if you got time to drain your own Magicka, which ruin any real bursts.
Yandir hm require everyone to be spread out and ranged take out totems.. someone got to be ranged…

It think the survivability is low..

Sure if you can stand still in your trial like vSS and parse the night away its an amazing setup. But I dont believe this new trend of sqeezing every K out of a dummy, no matter how awkward it would be in actual content, is the way to go.

You do 100k+ that is waaaay above me.
Are you on PC EU? Maybe we can test it out if you are up for a quick SG HM?

Maybe Im wrong here but we could test it see how it holds up vs a standard MS-Kinra setup.

If I’m wrong I’ll admit it.

VAS HM no melee is viable so thats the one outlier

Generally Bahsei will outperform any other set, its not hard to manage mag in content