Troodon80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I haven't seen any good reasons mentioned. Getting unsolicited advice is intrusive, not helpful.

Strongly disagree. I've seen a few in this topic, as well as others, and even other MMOs.

Please name some of these good reasons, because I haven't found any.

Troodon80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

There are as many reasons for it as there are against it.

I haven't seen any good reasons mentioned. Getting unsolicited advice is intrusive, not helpful.

Strongly disagree. I've seen a few in this topic, as well as others, and even other MMOs. Just because you refuse to acknowledge something as good or bad doesn't, objectively, make it so. But then again, this falls outside the purview of discussion on merits and downsides and more into the realm of purely personal opinion.

I acknowledge there is bad. Games like FFXIV prohibit addons in general (though there are no client side checks for things like external damage sharing, so some can be used on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis), but more specifically stated as things like damage share addons because of potential elitist and toxic behaviour. However, they do allow an Inspect feature. ESO, rather, is the opposite and, in my opinion, has more toxicity because of it; it's much easier to go "Wait... I'm doing 90% of the group DPS..." and kick the other DD for no other reason. In FFXIV, you never really know exactly how much you or the other person is doing. In ESO, they don't need to see your gear to vote kick, they can see their own percentage damage done via addons. If ever there was a reason to kick someone, it's because of their DPS and not simply because of what they're wearing. And even if you're wearing off-meta gear, it doesn't mean your damage has to be abysmal. If DPS is the "issue," it's likely not just your gear that's the "problem."

Unpopular opinion, at least according to many people in this topic: If someone can help me do better, I'm all for hearing it. Obviously, being able to tell the difference between destructive criticism and constructive criticism goes a long way. If someone is just going to message me saying "You suck" then nothing good comes from that. If someone messages me saying "Hey, I see you are using this, I recommend doing this instead because XYZ reasons," explaining their reasoning and logic, much good can be gained from it.

The fun part is, you are only describing the behavior of PC players. Because console players have zero way to actually tell how much DPS one another are doing.

So rather than exacerbate the problem by adding in an intrusive gear check function, maybe remove the ability to tell how much dps other players are doing on PC if it is such a problem.

JKorr wrote: »

Carry that on a bit.... There are ways to provide help if someone asks for it. If they don't ask for advice...well. That's what the Ignore list is for.

That's exactly what the ignore list is meant for.

JKorr wrote: »

If I see you're still using the crappy gear I'll vote to kick in any group you get into.

This can happen even if they can't see the exact details of your build in-game (especially with ESO Logs now displaying the information). If it's to the extreme that they're going to harass someone like that and vote kick because of a build choice, even if the build works and they can perform adaquately, then they belong on the ignore list and not a person I would spend or waste time talking to. They're not "omnipotent elite," they're just toxic. I've even had people at relatively low levels tell me something is "literally meta" without understanding what meta even is because they read it in a build guide somewhere.

If people are going to go the route of saying "inspection" will cause greater persecution, then "officially" ZOS should also distance themselves from content creators for endorsing a meta in the first place, because by the same logic it "fosters toxicity." If we didn't have builds guides showing "meta," people wouldn't be able to make assumptions about a builds' effectiveness.

This patch alone is quite possibly one of the most interesting in terms of builds. We now have magicka DKs using Venomous Smite and Azureblight in trash pulls for AoE damage, for example. While the "meta" is Sul-Xan and Burning Spellweave. People are testing sets that were never considered before and are coming up with incredible combinations to optimise their damage.

jaws343 wrote: »

The fun part is, you are only describing the behavior of PC players. Because console players have zero way to actually tell how much DPS one another are doing.

So rather than exacerbate the problem by adding in an intrusive gear check function, maybe remove the ability to tell how much dps other players are doing on PC if it is such a problem.

My point is, addons in ESO are going to be more of an issue than an inspection, based on the reasoning of every single other MMO to date who have inspection but disallows addons. FFXIV is also available on console, by the way, has inspection and displays loot drops as a base game feature, and you get a ban if you harass someone about their damage while using an addon to see DPS on PC.

I don't propose copying every other MMO, however. Quite the opposite. ESO stands on its own and it is one of the reasons why people like it. I'm just stating that "Inspection" is not the issue people are making it out to be, versus the toxicity of someone doing DPS and seeing, with an addon, what % DPS they're doing; and said example has been incredibly rare in my experience. It's a proverbial mountain out of a molehill.

SilverBride wrote: »

Please name some of these good reasons, because I haven't found any.

I already named one good one. It can be used as a means to improve if given advice, or simply to learn from others (that's technically two). Whether or not the advice is accepted or rejected.

It would also enable you to see at a glance what sort of styles, outfit, costume (including colours), or polymorph someone is using without perstering them. And various other "good" reasons that have been given in the previous pages that people are intent to ignore. If one is so intent to ignore the good, I'm personally content to ignore the "bad." Which doesn't make it much of a discussion now, does it?

The feature could also be an opt-in and be disabled by default, just as it is with Encounter Logging, as someone else suggested.

For reference, people already have ESO Logs. Despite people saying it's an "after-the-fact" tool, there's also Live Logging. You can see what a person is using after the first trash mob pull. If this was such a big issue and people were as vile as suggested, we would have many, many, many more people on the forum saying "I got kicked from the group and harassed because someone was logging" and the tool would fade from existance, be condemned by ZOS, and people using it would be banned. We do not, and ESO Logs seems to be here to stay.

But even with the debate, I don't imagine the feature even happening, nor do I specifically want it to happen. Again, just stating that it's not as big of an issue as people make it out to be.

No, this promotes major toxicity. this happened in wow before and was so toxic. Awful idea.

SilverBride wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Please name some of these good reasons, because I haven't found any.

I already named one good one. It can be used as a means to improve if given advice, or simply to learn from others (that's technically two). Whether or not the advice is accepted or rejected.

Getting into another player's business and offering unsolicited advice is not a good reason. That comes across as presumptuous rather than helpful.

If a player wants to improve they can ask for advice, or use one of the many sites dedicated to that purpose.

Yeah. If someone wants the advice, they'll ask and can just link you their gear. Seeing so many people want this because they want to try to give unsolicited advice to random people they don't even know definitely makes me reconsider wanting this idea.

SilverBride wrote: »

Getting into another player's business and offering unsolicited advice is not a good reason. That comes across as presumptuous rather than helpful.

If a player wants to improve they can ask for advice, or use one of the many sites dedicated to that purpose.

So you're not addressing anything else in my post? Just the advice aspect? Nothing about it being an opt-in feature? Or about ESO Logs and the fact that we don't have the problem you're stating we would have as though it were an immutable and inevitable fact?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Please name some of these good reasons, because I haven't found any.

I already named one good one. It can be used as a means to improve if given advice, or simply to learn from others (that's technically two). Whether or not the advice is accepted or rejected.

Getting into another player's business and offering unsolicited advice is not a good reason. That comes across as presumptuous rather than helpful.

If a player wants to improve they can ask for advice, or use one of the many sites dedicated to that purpose.

Yeah. If someone wants the advice, they'll ask and can just link you their gear. Seeing so many people want this because they want to try to give unsolicited advice to random people they don't even know definitely makes me reconsider wanting this idea.

If they made a toggle to make your gear visible or not then it would be on the player if others approach them. But it definitely should not be the default.

Yeah. That could work. A toggle that's off by default like auto-stealing items.

I think it would be handy in PVP when I don't recognise the animations/effects from new sets. Sure, I could just ask the enemy player what set it was... that usually has a positive result! omglol XD

spitfire1525 wrote: »

This is ridiculous its not in game. It helps alot of new or returning players.

You mean it helps new players lack build diversity and get bullied bacause some old players tell them what to do or kick them instead of letting them play the game.

Lol GG casual players.

I understand your point of view however .

A discreet vote for hell no.

spitfire1525 wrote: »

This is ridiculous its not in game. It helps alot of new or returning players with what they should wear. I know as returning player... im blindsighted by all the different attributes and stats with new skill tree + combinning with gear sets....

And how exactly would looking at my gear while I'm at the crafting station or the bank help you? My main character has at least 4 different set-ups for different things and you wouldn't know one from the other.

dem0n1k wrote: »

I think it would be handy in PVP when I don't recognise the animations/effects from new sets. Sure, I could just ask the enemy player what set it was... that usually has a positive result! omglol XD

The death recap will usually tell you. If not, then players in your own alliance will.

Troodon80 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

If this was implemented here, i wouldn't expect it to be "opt in only". Considering the amount of actual forum outcry it took to get esologs set to off as default....

Yeah. Opt in would have to be hard fought I think....

Considering what ESO Logs does, it's very easy to see who is doing what. Even with anonymity. There is no opt-in/out feature. There is anonymous and not anonymous. If someone wanted to whisper someone else to "educate" them on their build, they can already do so. It's already a non-issue, and so would it be for an inspect feature. If ZOS did do something like an inspect feature (and I believe they won't, by the way), I would expect it to be "This user is private, you cannot see their gear and cosmetics."

Yeah, but you have to turn on ESO Logs at the beginning of the encounter, and then remember the username of the "anonymous" that was in your PUG so you can whisper them about their build.

He sent me very offensive tells and in game mails and called me filthy names. This was before you could put an account on ignore, so every time I ignored a character he just created a new one to continue the harassment. I finally submitted a ticket and they read the mails he had sent me. I never saw him in game again./quote]

Wow that is next level toxic.

Once again, IMHO - Please NO