The Fake Tanks and Healers have gotten so bad, I don't even want to play anymore.

Recent · December 2021

It wasn't me honest 😂😂😂

Yea I agree with you OP too many low cp have a false sense of how much harder DLC dungeoms are and many dont care cos they just want a carry....make it hard on those that can do DLC dungeons at a steady pace and makes the dungeon take 4 times as long ...

SickDuck · December 2021

I've given up hope on fixing anything regarding Dungeon Finder. So many things could be done with the whole system, but any decent solution would require lot of effort to deliver. At this point, where most people are OK(ish) with the current system, I seriously doubt ZOS will allocate the resources for this. And tbh at this point I don't even mind. Consider this volatility and unpredictability as part of the charm of pug runs

I do lot of pug runs every day and not just random normals, but 2-key pledges including DLC, or just veteran DLC runs when I miss stuff. My experience with the groups are not that bad. The normals are pretty mixed bag, lot of bad players there, but generally it doesn't make any difference. Almost never have to abandon any normal run, even DLC dungeons with the exception of rare occasions where I quit because some people being a proper antisocial a'hole (well, in case vote kick is ignored).

Veteran runs, especially DLC ones are generally better. I think it is because the worse kind of people go for the low hanging fruit and just doing the random normal runs. I'd say 8 out 10 times we finish veteran dungeons pretty smoothly, 1 goes with hiccups and occasional member changes, 1 gets abandoned due to things going utterly wrong. Depending on which DLC dungeon and how the team performs, HM is skipped quite commonly - or maybe skipped after a single try & failure, but still managed to do most dungeons on HM with pug groups. Same goes for speed runs and no death. Of course for these pre-mades and friendly guild groups are much better.

Regarding fake tanking - fake is bad. But you can do what I call DPS tanking which works for all normal dungeons and most non-DLC veteran dungeons, even some DLC ones too. This is basically your regular DD (or healer) setup... with a single taunt skill added (tada!). Of course you need to have some experience with the dungeons first, but very easy to serve as a tank in terms of taking care of bosses. I know a good tank gives huge buffs and support to their teams, but you balance that out with the extra damage provided. It is the best way to avoid fake tanks!

Snow_White · December 2021

Rataroto wrote: »

Suppose I queue as a Tank, on a DPS character.

1. I taunt literally everything and even group up mobs via LOS.
2. I do not die.
3. I keep agro of boss during fights.
4. I self sustain and heal myself.

Just because I'm wearing medium/light armor using dual wield/2h/bow/inferno staves, does that make me a fake tank?

Unironically curious at the answer. Or rather, the answer to "What qualifies as a tank?"

> I don't queue as fake heals, because I can't provide stam heals xD. (But what if you were a stamden with lots of aoe heals, but you're also a dps?). Keep in mind, these are questions for NORMAL DUNGEONS. Since I don't do veteran dungeons with randoms.

A tanks job is to hold aggro and not die. If you can do those two things then you’re a tank. Could be naked and spam inner fire for all I care, if the boss is held in AOE instead of being kited in a circle then things are going to die faster.

FWIW, I see a lot of DPS players that do such a good job tanking that if it weren’t for the ~22k health and 2H/DW/bow I wouldn’t know they weren’t a “real” tank. I don’t think these are the fake tanks people are complaining about, and I don’t see any issue with this style of gameplay.

Narvuntien · December 2021

Solution play as a tank or healer. Someones got to do it and it might as well be you.

I only queue for pug dungeons as a tank, mostly for the short queues but avoiding fake tanks is also a bonus

ixthUA · December 2021

Normal dungeons are not endgame. Fake tank problem is almost non-existent in vet dungeons.

DormantOne · December 2021

Yeah these days I don't plan on getting my daily dungeon done on the first try.

Beardimus · December 2021

MakoRuu wrote: »

I am so incredibly SICK AND TIRED of rolling an end game DLC Dungeon with new players under 600 CP that are FAKE TANKS AND HEALERS. And don't know the mechanics of a dungeon.

Just today, I was finishing up weekly endeavors, and we landed in March of Sacrifices. The Tank was a fake NB, only had around 400 CP, Dual Wielding and using Whirling Blades for everything, no taunt. CONTINUED TO DIE TO TRASH MOBS. Did not engage in conversation in the group chat when people were trying to help them, or called them out on being a fake tank.

We got to the first boss, which is the sisters, and the team wiped over and over again. The others kept saying "WE CAN DO IT, IT'S ONLY NORMAL." Myself, and only one other person over a thousand Champion Ranks.

I was DPS, doing 80% of the group damage (CombatMetrics.)

I finally gave up and just left, which I absolutely hate doing.

We need harsher punishments for false roles if Zos wants to keep collecting money from me. It's getting so bad that the duty finder is an absolute chore to use. You pray and beg for an easy dungeon just to get it over with.

I've been playing since the closed betas, and I'm closing in on 3500 hours on again off again time, and I don't even want to play anymore because of this massive problem.

For normals I find poor DPS the bigger issue these days. I pretty much always roll a hybrid setup when healing as the damage is lacklustre.

And vets, just don't pug

ApoAlaia · December 2021

To me the most irksome thing from this practice is that those players are cutting in line.

That will never sit well with me.

There is something inherently frustrating about that practice and the level of mental gymnastics it invites to justify it.

When the person engaging in this activity has enough self-awareness to warrant a justification, to themselves and to others. Many do not even achieve that bare minimum.

Enrik72 · December 2021

so we need an automated DPS, Healer and Tank definition system based on selected Gears, Skills and CP ..?

ixthUA · December 2021

Enrik72 wrote: »

so we need an automated DPS, Healer and Tank definition system based on selected Gears, Skills and CP ..?

They can queue as tank, get into dungeon, change into DD gear.

LashanW · December 2021

KaGaOri wrote: »

But as others have said, there are certain DLC dungeons (even on normal) that really call for a real tank and healer.

Which ones? Haven't found a single dungeon that was impossible for my DDs to tank and needed a real healer's help. Though I'm always grateful if a real healer is present.

There's only 2 boss attacks in all dungeons that are very deadly to a DD tanking a normal dungeon.
1. Icereach first boss
This dude gets angry and goes red sometimes. His basic attacks in this phase hit super hard and are AoE (moment of silence for those people who like to rotate around bosses for some reason), they must be blocked AND shielded/healed repeatedly, hard to dodge all these attacks.
2. Fang Lair Ulfnor boss
This guy's heavy attack hits for like 30k THROUGH block, jesus christ. Thankfully it can be dodged, but it's faster than most other heavy attacks and the ghost might stun you right before the attacks. If blocking you need to shield as well.

Honorable mentions,
1. Moonhunter Keep lurcher boss
This dude is an absolute pro at animation cancelling. His heavy attack animation doesn't display most of the time and the damage occurs in like half a second.
2. March of Sacrifices first boss (sword and board sister)
Her heavy does a lot of damage, but only like 75% of HP of a DD if blocked. Can be dodged too.

Heals_With_Orbs · December 2021

yes guys, ive seen this going on for too long, the game is a mess. I dont really mind guys faking it on easy normals, but for vet and dlc content and its not good. Even on normals it can be quite a sad experience when a CP1500 guy is a fake tank, then the level 27 guy is getting chased by the bosses and getting killed and wondered what on earth is going on. Theres a lot of people out there who are pretty annoyed about it

This imaginary world that ZOS thinks is going on with "fun group activities" and " "events" is often a total joke, a circus show with selfish players with no regards to the fact theres 3 other players in the group. Absolutely awful a lot of the time

Something has to be done about this, the game feels broken. Theres absolutely no way id ever queue up for something unless I knew I was able to at least complete it or add something to the group, but it seems many players think they can do whatever they like, with no build, no gear or skills, and have no concept that theres other people time involved

I've got no idea what is possible from the devs side of things, but from the conversations i've had with guild mates, suggestions have been along the lines of either some kind of dps check on an in game basic target dummy thats in the fighters guild, and if they fail the check, they cant do the vet, or dlc, or checks to see if they have proper tanking gear / healing gear / dd gear. Maybe there could be some kind of training school, like there is in other games, that wont let you progress until you've passed the basic scores etc...or maybe it could check their stats, spell dmg etc

Sheezabeast · December 2021

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

yes guys, ive seen this going on for too long, the game is a mess. I dont really mind guys faking it on easy normals, but for vet and dlc content and its not good. Even on normals it can be quite a sad experience when a CP1500 guy is a fake tank, then the level 27 guy is getting chased by the bosses and getting killed and wondered what on earth is going on. Theres a lot of people out there who are pretty annoyed about it

This imaginary world that ZOS thinks is going on with "fun group activities" and " "events" is often a total joke, a circus show with selfish players with no regards to the fact theres 3 other players in the group. Absolutely awful a lot of the time

Something has to be done about this, the game feels broken. Theres absolutely no way id ever queue up for something unless I knew I was able to at least complete it or add something to the group, but it seems many players think they can do whatever they like, with no build, no gear or skills, and have no concept that theres other people time involved

I've got no idea what is possible from the devs side of things, but from the conversations i've had with guild mates, suggestions have been along the lines of either some kind of dps check on an in game basic target dummy thats in the fighters guild, and if they fail the check, they cant do the vet, or dlc, or checks to see if they have proper tanking gear / healing gear / dd gear. Maybe there could be some kind of training school, like there is in other games, that wont let you progress until you've passed the basic scores etc...or maybe it could check their stats, spell dmg etc

If you go to Cyrodiil and do the quest for Sheogorath, it is a great example of an equipped weapon and abilities being explained against certain targets. It's in the game. They could do this with a SnB or Frost staff for a tanking simulation with a taunt to teach aggro, or a resto staff and a healing spell for a healer, or a Bow and Volley for example for DD. It exists in game and could be used in a basic role tutorial.

Nemezijus · December 2021

All these issues with fake roles in ESO are just the results of flaws in the automated grouping. If the system can be abused easily - there will be people who will do it.

I think a much better option would be a public advertisement board, where a group leader can post what roles they are looking for to fill the group with a custom text like "vMGF 1T 2DD, CP1600+" or "daily random, any role, low level welcome".
And in case of fake role joining, the group leader can just kick them out.

It works really well in guild wars 2, and I see no real reason why it couldn't work here.
You could make your own custom groups and dont need to spam Craglorn with the lfg which gets lost in the zone chat very fast.

seldomseenkd · December 2021

Aggressive tank/healer builds are the optimal setup for normals imo.

However, quite often a fake tank/healer will rock up with no taunts/heals slotted, do negligible dps, and tie up other members of the group who have to keep constantly ressing them. These players are FREELOADERS.

Initiate a vote kick. If it doesn't pass, leave. If y'all keep carrying these players then they're just gonna keep doing it.

Toxic_Hemlock · December 2021

Snow_White wrote: »

The only reason end gamers are queueing random normals is for the easy 10 transmutes.

Easiest way to reduce the power imbalance is to get rid of the easy transmutes in normal and incentivize us to queue for vet.

I personally would never set foot in a dungeon again if that was implemented. I don't care if they reduce the rewards for random normals, but to remove all incentives is just going to force some people away and I'm sure I am not the only one that cannot do vet level dungeons.

As has been said that even if you make boundaries to queueing such as having a sword/board or resto staff equipped will also make some tank/healers players ineligible for the queue. For example If I use a frost staff to taunt or as previously mentioned using class skills only for healing then that would count me out. Also who is to say a player that checks all the boxes will even use their heal/tank abilities, or is competent with them?

It is difficult line to draw, and as has been said your best bet is to form a guild group, barring that though unfortunately when you pug you get what you pay for.

Succuby · December 2021

Normals can not be passed solo by DD ?

Make real tank. No tanks - gameplay they do not like make plyers do not play tanks.

Fake tank is better than nothing ! Get change gear to tank if you need tank be in group.

I have gear for tank/healer/dd each time i go anywhere.

Coatmagic · December 2021

Don't want to be 'that person', but from where I sit, people being unable to fulfil their roles is pretty much across the board.

Also, due to 'dps' being the easiest overland thing to be, there is little incentive for the majority of the population to notice/care how much damage they (are failing to) do.

As all above, and all before, there is no 'fix' this late in the game. Yes, separate que for DLC would help some, but let's face it, if those who really enjoy pug life want these situations not to come about, it is going to fall to the player.
Meaning, said player knows the ins and outs and what could happen, so be able to pinch hit any role (even if not your primary).

This has been the only way (during events the only time I random) I go into pugs. It's not hard!
No, we should not have to do it, but again, we really have little other choice.

EmperorIl · December 2021

Muttsmutt wrote: »

you can't get a bad fake tank if YOU are the fake tank.
if you're capable of soloing the dungeon, just grab a taunt and queue as tank.
by taunting & staying alive, you'll do absolutely everything a real tank would need to do for a random normal.

relevant thread.

While this is a good tip it is not addressing the actual problem. The game needs a real solution, not a band-aid fix that will not work for every pug.

EmperorIl · December 2021

Rataroto wrote: »

Suppose I queue as a Tank, on a DPS character.

1. I taunt literally everything and even group up mobs via LOS.
2. I do not die.
3. I keep agro of boss during fights.
4. I self sustain and heal myself.

Just because I'm wearing medium/light armor using dual wield/2h/bow/inferno staves, does that make me a fake tank?

Unironically curious at the answer. Or rather, the answer to "What qualifies as a tank?"

> I don't queue as fake heals, because I can't provide stam heals xD. (But what if you were a stamden with lots of aoe heals, but you're also a dps?). Keep in mind, these are questions for NORMAL DUNGEONS. Since I don't do veteran dungeons with randoms.

If you are doing all of that you are a tank who happens to be able to put out dps.

There are no tank classes in this game, there are tank actions which mainly include taunting and the ability to survive it. You are not a fake tank. A fake tank does not do anything a tank should do, they are simply dps who queue as tanks to get in faster.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

LashanW wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

But as others have said, there are certain DLC dungeons (even on normal) that really call for a real tank and healer.

Which ones? Haven't found a single dungeon that was impossible for my DDs to tank and needed a real healer's help. Though I'm always grateful if a real healer is present.

There's only 2 boss attacks in all dungeons that are very deadly to a DD tanking a normal dungeon.
1. Icereach first boss
This dude gets angry and goes red sometimes. His basic attacks in this phase hit super hard and are AoE (moment of silence for those people who like to rotate around bosses for some reason), they must be blocked AND shielded/healed repeatedly, hard to dodge all these attacks.
2. Fang Lair Ulfnor boss
This guy's heavy attack hits for like 30k THROUGH block, jesus christ. Thankfully it can be dodged, but it's faster than most other heavy attacks and the ghost might stun you right before the attacks. If blocking you need to shield as well.

Honorable mentions,
1. Moonhunter Keep lurcher boss
This dude is an absolute pro at animation cancelling. His heavy attack animation doesn't display most of the time and the damage occurs in like half a second.
2. March of Sacrifices first boss (sword and board sister)
Her heavy does a lot of damage, but only like 75% of HP of a DD if blocked. Can be dodged too.

The first boss of Lair of Maarselok, the spider heavy attacks fairly frequently and hits pretty hard. It can be hard for a mag DD to deal with it.

Lady_Galadhiel · December 2021

Are we talking about veteran DLC dungeons or normal ones?
If normal then I dont see a problem,I prefer to have extra dps instead of a tank.
Just the other day I did queue up for a random normal on pc na where I just did hit cp160 and have no gear,most passives not unlocked,some skills not morphed and my team was made of cp400+ cp120 cp160 and cp700 we had no tank and no healer and did run Fang lair without any problems.
The only times I did encounter where fake tanks can be a problem is in veteran DLC dungeons,I mean I did even run pug vet trials without having a tank in the group and it just works.

BlossomDead · December 2021

MakoRuu wrote: »

I am so incredibly SICK AND TIRED of rolling an end game DLC Dungeon with new players under 600 CP that are FAKE TANKS AND HEALERS. And don't know the mechanics of a dungeon.

Just today, I was finishing up weekly endeavors, and we landed in March of Sacrifices. The Tank was a fake NB, only had around 400 CP, Dual Wielding and using Whirling Blades for everything, no taunt. CONTINUED TO DIE TO TRASH MOBS. Did not engage in conversation in the group chat when people were trying to help them, or called them out on being a fake tank.

We got to the first boss, which is the sisters, and the team wiped over and over again. The others kept saying "WE CAN DO IT, IT'S ONLY NORMAL." Myself, and only one other person over a thousand Champion Ranks.

I was DPS, doing 80% of the group damage (CombatMetrics.)

I finally gave up and just left, which I absolutely hate doing.

We need harsher punishments for false roles if Zos wants to keep collecting money from me. It's getting so bad that the duty finder is an absolute chore to use. You pray and beg for an easy dungeon just to get it over with.

I've been playing since the closed betas, and I'm closing in on 3500 hours on again off again time, and I don't even want to play anymore because of this massive problem.

Even though the experience surely is lackluster these are mere symptoms of the long queue times that people get furstrated with and decide to fake the role so that they can get their daily XP.

I almost stopped doing daily dungeon for that reason as my waiting time frequently averages around 40+ minutes as well as a DD.

The better solution here might be focusing on how waiting times can be improved rather than punishing people for wanting to play instead of waiting in the queue.

Bat · December 2021

seldomseenkd wrote: »

Aggressive tank/healer builds are the optimal setup for normals imo.

However, quite often a fake tank/healer will rock up with no taunts/heals slotted, do negligible dps, and tie up other members of the group who have to keep constantly ressing them. These players are FREELOADERS.

Initiate a vote kick. If it doesn't pass, leave. If y'all keep carrying these players then they're just gonna keep doing it.

I should not have to take a queue time penalty as a DD for doing the right thing in queuing in my role and voting to kick a faker. If the group decides to protect a faker, it's not incumbent on me to contribute to the group clear. Either kick the faker, or kick me.

seldomseenkd · December 2021

..

Bat wrote: »

seldomseenkd wrote: »

Aggressive tank/healer builds are the optimal setup for normals imo.

However, quite often a fake tank/healer will rock up with no taunts/heals slotted, do negligible dps, and tie up other members of the group who have to keep constantly ressing them. These players are FREELOADERS.

Initiate a vote kick. If it doesn't pass, leave. If y'all keep carrying these players then they're just gonna keep doing it.

I should not have to take a queue time penalty as a DD for doing the right thing in queuing in my role and voting to kick a faker. If the group decides to protect a faker, it's not incumbent on me to contribute to the group clear. Either kick the faker, or kick me.

I have multiple alts so this isn't really a problem for me. But yes I agree, you shouldn't have to take the penalty.

MakoRuu · December 2021

A lot of people are defending themselves, and high CP Players who can "Solo normal dungeons."

Yes, that is fine. If you can speed run Spindleclutch 1 in 5 minutes more power to you.

But the Random Daily Dungeon reward is using an honor system that people are abusing to get faster queues. That is what I have a problem with, not high level players. It's the act of abusing that system so you can queue faster and leave the rest of us in the dust.

It creates an unpleasant experience for new players, as well. I'm closing in on 1400CP, and yes, I can hit 99 - 101k dps on the trial dummy. Yes, I can solo pretty much every base dungeon, yes, I regularly play all three roles; but I am honoring the Role System for the sake of other people.

The random rewards are actually really amazing. Not only do you get 10 Transmutation Crystals, which is good if you have a lot of alts, but you also get purple level gear. While pretty much useless for an end game player, you can DECONSTRUCT this gear for the materials it provides. And a massive chunk of daily exp. (Good for grinding Champion Ranks.)

Doing random dailies is like 50% of my Zircon source income. (I absolutely refuse to farm the Alik'r Dolem circuit.)

It's fast, it's easy, and you get tons and tons of purple jewelry for free. I have 12 characters, and while I don't actually do 12 dailies, I do sometimes run at least two to three, depending on how I feel that day, and what character I feel like playing. During events, or for weekly endeavors, it's not uncommon for me to grind out all seven dungeons in a single day.

So maybe I am the exception to the rule, I don't know. But something needs to be done. Because even newer players, as low as 100CP are abusing the role system to get faster queue times. It's more common for me to see a fake tank than it is to see a real one these days. I actually joke about it like "Whoa, is our tank real???"

Anyways, thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

Succuby · December 2021

MakoRuu wrote: »

A lot of people are defending themselves, and high CP Players who can "Solo normal dungeons."

Yes, that is fine. If you can speed run Spindleclutch 1 in 5 minutes more power to you.

But the Random Daily Dungeon reward is using an honor system that people are abusing to get faster queues. That is what I have a problem with, not high level players. It's the act of abusing that system so you can queue faster and leave the rest of us in the dust.

It creates an unpleasant experience for new players, as well. I'm closing in on 1400CP, and yes, I can hit 99 - 101k dps on the trial dummy. Yes, I can solo pretty much every base dungeon, yes, I regularly play all three roles; but I am honoring the Role System for the sake of other people.

The random rewards are actually really amazing. Not only do you get 10 Transmutation Crystals, which is good if you have a lot of alts, but you also get purple level gear. While pretty much useless for an end game player, you can DECONSTRUCT this gear for the materials it provides. And a massive chunk of daily exp. (Good for grinding Champion Ranks.)

Doing random dailies is like 50% of my Zircon source income. (I absolutely refuse to farm the Alik'r Dolem circuit.)

It's fast, it's easy, and you get tons and tons of purple jewelry for free. I have 12 characters, and while I don't actually do 12 dailies, I do sometimes run at least two to three, depending on how I feel that day, and what character I feel like playing. During events, or for weekly endeavors, it's not uncommon for me to grind out all seven dungeons in a single day.

So maybe I am the exception to the rule, I don't know. But something needs to be done. Because even newer players, as low as 100CP are abusing the role system to get faster queue times. It's more common for me to see a fake tank than it is to see a real one these days. I actually joke about it like "Whoa, is our tank real???"

Anyways, thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[Snip] It is boring and unplayable. So no tanks, people try to fake it to make runs possible.

[Edited for minor bait]

Nogawd · December 2021

If you die in a normal dungeon...

It's not the tank or healers fault.

It's not the fake tank or healers fault.

It's yours.

Succuby · December 2021

Nogawd wrote: »

If you die in a normal dungeon...

It's not the tank or healers fault.

It's not the fake tank or healers fault.

It's yours.

A lot of 160- players go normals too. For 1000+ it is not good to die there, but normals are for new players to start with.

ZOS_Volpe · December 2021

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