How is it possible to deal such low(<10k) dps? (Solved, #1 updated)

zaria · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Having low dps does not show a lack of critical thinking skills. Some people just aren't interested in doing better and play the game they want in the kinds of groups that they are supposed to join, like PUGs without reqs or normal dungeon queue.

Others are thinking critically, and are at the earliest stages of development.

It's more than a bit insulting, imo, to act like these people aren't thinking critically rather than pointing out specific errors.

Notice how they all have the BiS gear?

It signifies they want to perform better, but did nothing else than copy-pasting Alcast builds.

And? That doesn't mean they weren't critically thinking. That is the literal first step and seeking out expert advice is already thinking critically. Try it alcast build, fail, refine it into something better, fail some more, do some more tweaks, get it right. That's part of the journey.

[Snip]

Notice how they're all above 1k, or even 1.5k cp?

The "try and fail", or experimental phase, comes around 200-700cp for most players. By the time they 1k cp, they've already established their builds.

It could be that they paid for power leveling, or a bit late to that phase. But in that case they are the exception, not the majority. [Edited for bait]

I think you are underestimating how long players can stay in the experimental phase in ESO.

In my own experience, one of the reasons players with high CP stay in that phase is that they lack the fundamentals to make those meta builds perform properly. So it's a constant experiment. "Well, maybe if I grind this gear, I'll get good DPS? No. Huh, well, maybe I should try this gear instead. Did that work? No..."

That's one way to get high CP players in meta builds doing a fraction of the damage their build should be capable of in theory.

My own experience with that was in PVP. I wasn't particularly good prior to the Morrowind patch, so the pre-nerf Blazing Shield 1vX Templar looked really attractive. It had an easy gear requirement, so I threw on what I needed, went out to PVP...

...and sucked. I died so much. Meanwhile the forums were complaining that Blazeplars were the most OP thing to be overpowered in a long while.

Problem was, I had the gear and the right skills equipped. What I didn't have was practice and experience using a Blazeplar, and so I died. Realizing that I needed to practice more than I needed a new build, I abandoned the Blazeplar and went back to my first character and practiced.

I see this a lot in PVP when players try to slap on a meta build but don't have the player skill to use it effectively, then complain that it's useless. I see less threads from players in PVE with the same issue, but that may be because the feedback is less immediate than dying to other players when you mess up, and low DPS can be carried in some content.

A lot of times, it's the fundamentals - proper rotations especially - that make the biggest difference. Too many players experiment with their builds, jumping from meta gear set to meta gear set, and wondering why their DPS never gets much better, when they don't practice the fundamentals (which, of course, ESO doesn't really teach.) Meanwhile, the players who have the fundamentals down do focus a lot on sets and weaving, because that makes a good player even better.

Now add to that that most long term players tend to have lots of alts you don't really know how to play. But as it take an long time to make new alts if lazy you get lots of less used builds who you don't know how to play.

As in I have no idea how to play an magcro. But I don't use her outside random normal runs and its well above 10 K dps but was below 20 on solo bosses.
Well a year ago I did an long series of random normals with the twist that if not an dlc or an very fast dungeon like FG1 we moved to an dlc to farm gear. This was an guild group I do vet dlc dungeons with.
Now as it got late, people was on the 10th alt and I guess most was drunk we got an pretty hard dlc but one we done in vet, we wiped so many times

Obviously fake tank and healer.
We learned stuff, think the magwarden became an healer during the run, pretty sure he healed vet trials on that character

Tannus15 · November 2021

@Alemtuzumab I know some very good mag sorcs who prefer ele weapon as a spammable in trials. it's better than FP for single target damage.

both magplars are running 1 bar sweep builds. they are barely doing anything except spamming sweeps. they don't bar swap, they don't maintain any dots, they are bad at the game and intend to continue to be bad at the game. they are not trying to improve, they just want to mash one button.
magplar number 2 isn't even doing light attacks. it's literally just hit sweeps all day.

magsorc is at least using both bars, but someone needs to tell them that lighting staffs are REALLY REALLY BAD
mag sorc has probably the weakest AOE in the game and they are encouraged to use lightning staff. it's really bad.

Darrett · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Having low dps does not show a lack of critical thinking skills. Some people just aren't interested in doing better and play the game they want in the kinds of groups that they are supposed to join, like PUGs without reqs or normal dungeon queue.

Others are thinking critically, and are at the earliest stages of development.

It's more than a bit insulting, imo, to act like these people aren't thinking critically rather than pointing out specific errors.

Notice how they all have the BiS gear?

It signifies they want to perform better, but did nothing else than copy-pasting Alcast builds.

And? That doesn't mean they weren't critically thinking. That is the literal first step and seeking out expert advice is already thinking critically. Try it alcast build, fail, refine it into something better, fail some more, do some more tweaks, get it right. That's part of the journey.

[Snip]

Notice how they're all above 1k, or even 1.5k cp?

The "try and fail", or experimental phase, comes around 200-700cp for most players. By the time they 1k cp, they've already established their builds.

It could be that they paid for power leveling, or a bit late to that phase. But in that case they are the exception, not the majority. [Edited for bait]

I think you are underestimating how long players can stay in the experimental phase in ESO.

In my own experience, one of the reasons players with high CP stay in that phase is that they lack the fundamentals to make those meta builds perform properly. So it's a constant experiment. "Well, maybe if I grind this gear, I'll get good DPS? No. Huh, well, maybe I should try this gear instead. Did that work? No..."

That's one way to get high CP players in meta builds doing a fraction of the damage their build should be capable of in theory.

Just to add to this; you also assume that they even consider themselves to be in an experimental phase. I’ve never parsed and have no desire to, not that I even have access to an “acceptable” dummy. I do decent damage as far as I know, considering I can, so far, clear any content that I particularly want to. If I had to guess, I’m probably at 20k-ish once I get rolling.

So I’m in that CP1000+ group that was described earlier. I do like changing equipment up and trying different setups, but it’s not so much to try to deal more damage, it’s to find something that feels as effective as my current setup but adds something new to the mix, such as a set that adds some defensive or group support ability while still providing approximately the same damage based on actual “felt” performance.

I don’t really consider that experimental, at least not with the goal of getting “good dps”. I do notice that some people can kill things significantly faster, but I don’t think most people really aspire to doing that kind of damage.

Kiralyn2000 · November 2021

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

The "try and fail", or experimental phase, comes around 200-700cp for most players. By the time they 1k cp, they've already established their builds.

Really? Where does it say this?

(also, as pointed out, CP is account-wide. Even if someone "experimented" on your stated schedule with their first character, their next one is automatically <whatever> CP even before they've started experimenting on their new character's build.)

---
Personally, I've been playing since 2016 and I'm somewhere around... 700? 800? CP. I honestly don't even know. Still have to re-assign some alts from that forced reset a week or two ago. My three "main" alts have the same 'build' I crafted/acquired for them when they hit 50/160.
(which reminds me, I need to do a tweak or two to my bow/stealth Stamblade. I gathered her gear back before two-handers counted for two pieces of a set, so she's wearing 5/5 Night Mother's Embrace and 6/5 Night's Silence. Plus a non-set chest armor, just for it's never-released-motif appearance.)

Elsonso · November 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Personally, I've been playing since 2016 and I'm somewhere around... 700? 800? CP. I honestly don't even know. Still have to re-assign some alts from that forced reset a week or two ago. My three "main" alts have the same 'build' I crafted/acquired for them when they hit 50/160.

I hear ya... I have been playing since launch, practically daily, and I am at 1200CP, and I have no established builds. The closest I come to an established build is on characters that I am not playing.

Troodon80 · November 2021

CP is absolutely not a mark of skill, nor these days is it even a mark of time played. All you have to do is look at the otherwise inexperienced people who spend day after day after day in Blackrose Prison grinding CP because they think it'll make them good. Same thing as people who used to grind in Skyreach until they got to 2000+ CP a couple years ago. Somehow, people think that if they have more CP people will take them more seriously. I know some people who are CP cap, 3600, and they can't do DPS to save their lives. The content they do the most -- their end game -- is crafting.

Facefister · November 2021

All the mental gymnastics here...
You can only find this on "DPS"-threads.
Tank and Healer threads are rather short

Elsonso · November 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

The content they do the most -- their end game -- is crafting.

Houses Per Second, Dailies Per Second, Fashion Per Second. The three important endgame stats.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

Facefister wrote: »

All the mental gymnastics here...
You can only find this on "DPS"-threads.
Tank and Healer threads are rather short

Tank and Healers have intuitive mechanics, getting good at those roles doesn't require you to read this guide or send that video, or compare this or that parse. It just requires gear and learning as you play the game.

Troodon80 · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank and Healers have intuitive mechanics, getting good at those roles doesn't require you to read this guide or send that video, or compare this or that parse. It just requires gear and learning as you play the game.

I would strongly disagree with the sentiment here. Though it depends how far you want to take the discussion with the OP's line of reasoning, builds, the type of content, etc. Tanks and healers have their own problem points and watching more videos, reading guides, and examining logs would do them good if they have a desire to do better. Same as DDs.

In the same way that doing DPS doesn't require more than slotting some skills and pressing them not even in a particular order to get some meagre damage, nor does tanking require anything more than pressing taunt and holding block.

However, if you want to actually get good at the role, it requires considerably more than you are suggesting. Playing the game only serves to show you the mechanics, now you need to put them to practice. Some might not be as intuitive as others (see latest DLC dungeon hard mode "pie" AoE as a prime example of this) and videos and guides have long been a way to show aspiring tanks and healers what they should be doing in terms of mechanics and even builds.

As a tank, you need to play the content that you want to get better at. I'm assuming this is what you mean, though I interpret more as "tanking and healing isn't as difficult and you don't need videos, guilds, etc. and no one is judging your performance." That's time which DDs call wasted while the group wipes because you're learning. Worse when the same mistakes keep being made and no progress is being seen. DDs, meanwhile, only have to go to their (or someone elses') home and smack a dummy. Add to this, the blame that tanks get in certan content like Arx Corinium due to "the tank losing taunt," because DDs do not know what mechanics are. Furthermore, not only do you have to play mechanics more than DDs do, you also have to focus on uptimes, your buffs and debuffs; you might not have a set rotation, but you still need to figure out the best way to keep those buffs and debuffs running. This is your "prase." Did I mention positioning? That's incredibly important as well.

All the while, you need to figure out which sets to run. This can depend either on the content (4-person or 12-person, trash pulls or bosses) you're doing or even on your class, whether you're using setups in an organised group or whether it's a "PUG Proof" setup. It's because of all this, and more, that tanking is generally viewed as an undesirable role to play in ESO, and that's without mentioning how tedious it is to play overland content as a full spec PvE tank.

In general, healers and tanks go into their role with a different mindset that isn't like that of the average DD. So far as PUGs go, the mark of a healer and tank who did their job is that no one died because of lack of heals or something not being taunted, this is something tangible, that's what you're going to strive for as an "average" metric. We're not considering sets or buffs or debuffs here, just the bare minimum. The average DD, on the other hand, might not really care about how much damage they are doing as long as stuff is dying. If you don't use things like Combat Metrics or Logs as a DD, you don't necessarily even know that you're underperforming. This applies to all roles.

VaranisArano · November 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank and Healers have intuitive mechanics, getting good at those roles doesn't require you to read this guide or send that video, or compare this or that parse. It just requires gear and learning as you play the game.

I would strongly disagree with the sentiment here. Though it depends how far you want to take the discussion with the OP's line of reasoning, builds, the type of content, etc. Tanks and healers have their own problem points and watching more videos, reading guides, and examining logs would do them good if they have a desire to do better. Same as DDs.

In the same way that doing DPS doesn't require more than slotting some skills and pressing them not even in a particular order to get some meagre damage, nor does tanking require anything more than pressing taunt and holding block.

However, if you want to actually get good at the role, it requires considerably more than you are suggesting. Playing the game only serves to show you the mechanics, now you need to put them to practice. Some might not be as intuitive as others (see latest DLC dungeon hard mode "pie" AoE as a prime example of this) and videos and guides have long been a way to show aspiring tanks and healers what they should be doing in terms of mechanics and even builds.

As a tank, you need to play the content that you want to get better at. I'm assuming this is what you mean, though I interpret more as "tanking and healing isn't as difficult and you don't need videos, guilds, etc. and no one is judging your performance." That's time which DDs call wasted while the group wipes because you're learning. Worse when the same mistakes keep being made and no progress is being seen. DDs, meanwhile, only have to go to their (or someone elses') home and smack a dummy. Add to this, the blame that tanks get in certan content like Arx Corinium due to "the tank losing taunt," because DDs do not know what mechanics are. Furthermore, not only do you have to play mechanics more than DDs do, you also have to focus on uptimes, your buffs and debuffs; you might not have a set rotation, but you still need to figure out the best way to keep those buffs and debuffs running. This is your "prase." Did I mention positioning? That's incredibly important as well.

All the while, you need to figure out which sets to run. This can depend either on the content (4-person or 12-person, trash pulls or bosses) you're doing or even on your class, whether you're using setups in an organised group or whether it's a "PUG Proof" setup. It's because of all this, and more, that tanking is generally viewed as an undesirable role to play in ESO, and that's without mentioning how tedious it is to play overland content as a full spec PvE tank.

In general, healers and tanks go into their role with a different mindset that isn't like that of the average DD. So far as PUGs go, the mark of a healer and tank who did their job is that no one died because of lack of heals or something not being taunted, this is something tangible, that's what you're going to strive for as an "average" metric. We're not considering sets or buffs or debuffs here, just the bare minimum. The average DD, on the other hand, might not really care about how much damage they are doing as long as stuff is dying. If you don't use things like Combat Metrics or Logs as a DD, you don't necessarily even know that you're underperforming. This applies to all roles.

I tank, so I interpreted it in the light that a tank gets immediate feedback when they screw up: the boss kills them or a groupmate. Figuring out the mechanic might take some trial and error, but the results of error are generally quite clear and immediate. That tank knows what they need to do to improve.

Healers similarly get immediate feedback as to their effectiveness at healing. Are your teammates still alive or dead? If they are dead and its not because they stood in stupid, that healer knows what they need to improve.

Compare that to Damage Dealers, where its very common for players to have no idea how much DPS they do. There aren't a lot of places where the feedback for "You personally aren't dealing enough damage" is clear and immediate, particularly since there are usually 2 DDs plus a healer and/or tank contributing some damage. In addition to not knowing their own DPS, they may or may not realize how much they are being carried unless someone calls them out - and being called out isn't conducive to learning to do better for most people. In short, the bosses aren't teaching them that they don't do enough DPS - it's left up to their fellow players to say, "Hey, do you want some tips on how to improve?"

Meanwhile, the boss lets the tank know that I need to block that heavy attack by mauling my face off. The boss lets the healer know we need more support when they start ripping chunks out of our health bars.

The result is that we see players with plenty of ESO experience doing low DPS. Maybe they know and have no desire to improve. Alternatively, it's entirely possible they've never gotten the sort of clear and immediate feedback from the game itself that tells them "you personally need to improve now or you fail your role" the way that tanks and healers do. Even when the group fails a DPS check, there's just not that same obvious knowledge of their personal need to improve.

ESO does actually provide clear and immediate personal feedback on individual DPS in Dummy parses and solo Arenas. But these are generally not the players running Combat Metrics or regularly parsing. And I get the feeling that most low DPS players aren't regularly running vMA.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank and Healers have intuitive mechanics, getting good at those roles doesn't require you to read this guide or send that video, or compare this or that parse. It just requires gear and learning as you play the game.

I would strongly disagree with the sentiment here. Though it depends how far you want to take the discussion with the OP's line of reasoning, builds, the type of content, etc. Tanks and healers have their own problem points and watching more videos, reading guides, and examining logs would do them good if they have a desire to do better. Same as DDs.

In the same way that doing DPS doesn't require more than slotting some skills and pressing them not even in a particular order to get some meagre damage, nor does tanking require anything more than pressing taunt and holding block.

However, if you want to actually get good at the role, it requires considerably more than you are suggesting. Playing the game only serves to show you the mechanics, now you need to put them to practice. Some might not be as intuitive as others (see latest DLC dungeon hard mode "pie" AoE as a prime example of this) and videos and guides have long been a way to show aspiring tanks and healers what they should be doing in terms of mechanics and even builds.

As a tank, you need to play the content that you want to get better at. I'm assuming this is what you mean, though I interpret more as "tanking and healing isn't as difficult and you don't need videos, guilds, etc. and no one is judging your performance." That's time which DDs call wasted while the group wipes because you're learning. Worse when the same mistakes keep being made and no progress is being seen. DDs, meanwhile, only have to go to their (or someone elses') home and smack a dummy. Add to this, the blame that tanks get in certan content like Arx Corinium due to "the tank losing taunt," because DDs do not know what mechanics are. Furthermore, not only do you have to play mechanics more than DDs do, you also have to focus on uptimes, your buffs and debuffs; you might not have a set rotation, but you still need to figure out the best way to keep those buffs and debuffs running. This is your "prase." Did I mention positioning? That's incredibly important as well.

All the while, you need to figure out which sets to run. This can depend either on the content (4-person or 12-person, trash pulls or bosses) you're doing or even on your class, whether you're using setups in an organised group or whether it's a "PUG Proof" setup. It's because of all this, and more, that tanking is generally viewed as an undesirable role to play in ESO, and that's without mentioning how tedious it is to play overland content as a full spec PvE tank.

In general, healers and tanks go into their role with a different mindset that isn't like that of the average DD. So far as PUGs go, the mark of a healer and tank who did their job is that no one died because of lack of heals or something not being taunted, this is something tangible, that's what you're going to strive for as an "average" metric. We're not considering sets or buffs or debuffs here, just the bare minimum. The average DD, on the other hand, might not really care about how much damage they are doing as long as stuff is dying. If you don't use things like Combat Metrics or Logs as a DD, you don't necessarily even know that you're underperforming. This applies to all roles.

I tank, so I interpreted it in the light that a tank gets immediate feedback when they screw up: the boss kills them or a groupmate. Figuring out the mechanic might take some trial and error, but the results of error are generally quite clear and immediate. That tank knows what they need to do to improve.

This is exactly what I mean. Thanks for this post.

Grandchamp1989 · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank and Healers have intuitive mechanics, getting good at those roles doesn't require you to read this guide or send that video, or compare this or that parse. It just requires gear and learning as you play the game.

I would strongly disagree with the sentiment here. Though it depends how far you want to take the discussion with the OP's line of reasoning, builds, the type of content, etc. Tanks and healers have their own problem points and watching more videos, reading guides, and examining logs would do them good if they have a desire to do better. Same as DDs.

In the same way that doing DPS doesn't require more than slotting some skills and pressing them not even in a particular order to get some meagre damage, nor does tanking require anything more than pressing taunt and holding block.

However, if you want to actually get good at the role, it requires considerably more than you are suggesting. Playing the game only serves to show you the mechanics, now you need to put them to practice. Some might not be as intuitive as others (see latest DLC dungeon hard mode "pie" AoE as a prime example of this) and videos and guides have long been a way to show aspiring tanks and healers what they should be doing in terms of mechanics and even builds.

As a tank, you need to play the content that you want to get better at. I'm assuming this is what you mean, though I interpret more as "tanking and healing isn't as difficult and you don't need videos, guilds, etc. and no one is judging your performance." That's time which DDs call wasted while the group wipes because you're learning. Worse when the same mistakes keep being made and no progress is being seen. DDs, meanwhile, only have to go to their (or someone elses') home and smack a dummy. Add to this, the blame that tanks get in certan content like Arx Corinium due to "the tank losing taunt," because DDs do not know what mechanics are. Furthermore, not only do you have to play mechanics more than DDs do, you also have to focus on uptimes, your buffs and debuffs; you might not have a set rotation, but you still need to figure out the best way to keep those buffs and debuffs running. This is your "prase." Did I mention positioning? That's incredibly important as well.

All the while, you need to figure out which sets to run. This can depend either on the content (4-person or 12-person, trash pulls or bosses) you're doing or even on your class, whether you're using setups in an organised group or whether it's a "PUG Proof" setup. It's because of all this, and more, that tanking is generally viewed as an undesirable role to play in ESO, and that's without mentioning how tedious it is to play overland content as a full spec PvE tank.

In general, healers and tanks go into their role with a different mindset that isn't like that of the average DD. So far as PUGs go, the mark of a healer and tank who did their job is that no one died because of lack of heals or something not being taunted, this is something tangible, that's what you're going to strive for as an "average" metric. We're not considering sets or buffs or debuffs here, just the bare minimum. The average DD, on the other hand, might not really care about how much damage they are doing as long as stuff is dying. If you don't use things like Combat Metrics or Logs as a DD, you don't necessarily even know that you're underperforming. This applies to all roles.

I tank, so I interpreted it in the light that a tank gets immediate feedback when they screw up: the boss kills them or a groupmate. Figuring out the mechanic might take some trial and error, but the results of error are generally quite clear and immediate. That tank knows what they need to do to improve.

Healers similarly get immediate feedback as to their effectiveness at healing. Are your teammates still alive or dead? If they are dead and its not because they stood in stupid, that healer knows what they need to improve.

Compare that to Damage Dealers, where its very common for players to have no idea how much DPS they do. There aren't a lot of places where the feedback for "You personally aren't dealing enough damage" is clear and immediate, particularly since there are usually 2 DDs plus a healer and/or tank contributing some damage. In addition to not knowing their own DPS, they may or may not realize how much they are being carried unless someone calls them out - and being called out isn't conducive to learning to do better for most people. In short, the bosses aren't teaching them that they don't do enough DPS - it's left up to their fellow players to say, "Hey, do you want some tips on how to improve?"

Meanwhile, the boss lets the tank know that I need to block that heavy attack by mauling my face off. The boss lets the healer know we need more support when they start ripping chunks out of our health bars.

The result is that we see players with plenty of ESO experience doing low DPS. Maybe they know and have no desire to improve. Alternatively, it's entirely possible they've never gotten the sort of clear and immediate feedback from the game itself that tells them "you personally need to improve now or you fail your role" the way that tanks and healers do. Even when the group fails a DPS check, there's just not that same obvious knowledge of their personal need to improve.

ESO does actually provide clear and immediate personal feedback on individual DPS in Dummy parses and solo Arenas. But these are generally not the players running Combat Metrics or regularly parsing. And I get the feeling that most low DPS players aren't regularly running vMA.

Absolutely amazing post.
Could probably be a subject matter / thread of its own.

DDs does indeed not get feedback on their individual performance unless third party addons are used.

Succuby · November 2021

Some people recast skill as example like Degrodation from mage guilde and their rotation is :

Degrodation * 10, so they do only 3 k dps.

The same for the skill from soul line.

If they use only spammable it would be near 10k+

Succuby · November 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Alemtuzumab I know some very good mag sorcs who prefer ele weapon as a spammable in trials. it's better than FP for single target damage.

both magplars are running 1 bar sweep builds. they are barely doing anything except spamming sweeps. they don't bar swap, they don't maintain any dots, they are bad at the game and intend to continue to be bad at the game. they are not trying to improve, they just want to mash one button.
magplar number 2 isn't even doing light attacks. it's literally just hit sweeps all day.

magsorc is at least using both bars, but someone needs to tell them that lighting staffs are REALLY REALLY BAD
mag sorc has probably the weakest AOE in the game and they are encouraged to use lightning staff. it's really bad.

They can use HA builds and have passives for that. We have HA sorcs in team.

LightningWitch · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

I mean, you were a new player once, just like I was. We learned to do DPS. Most players with <10k DPS are new to the game, new to the Damage Dealer role, or don't care about changing their playstyle to deal more damage.

Been in this game since it launched on XBox and never once have I cared about dps and never will.

This game is *designed* for casual play. The only people whining about dps are those who are tired of running the same trial over and over and want it done as soon as they can.

This is why the game gave us guilds.

I have no issue of people wanting to min/max trials. That's an option in the game.

I have a tremendous issue of players like you calling out players like me as though we're in the wrong.

We're not. Learn from this.

VaranisArano · November 2021

LightningWitch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I mean, you were a new player once, just like I was. We learned to do DPS. Most players with <10k DPS are new to the game, new to the Damage Dealer role, or don't care about changing their playstyle to deal more damage.

Been in this game since it launched on XBox and never once have I cared about dps and never will.

This game is *designed* for casual play. The only people whining about dps are those who are tired of running the same trial over and over and want it done as soon as they can.

This is why the game gave us guilds.

I have no issue of people wanting to min/max trials. That's an option in the game.

I have a tremendous issue of players like you calling out players like me as though we're in the wrong.

We're not. Learn from this.

Hey, as long as you are dealing enough damage to complete the content you want to complete, you do you!

It's not wrong to play without caring how much damage you do or to care about changing your playstyle to deal more damage. Lots of people just quest, craft, or do fun stuff like Housing. As I've been saying throughout this thread, players with < 10k DPS do normal dungeons all the time.

Of course, I will say that I used to play like that up until I found that I wanted to do content for which I needed better DPS. VMA in my case - not even trials. So that got me started on learning to do better DPS.

That list?

It's why I did <10k DPS for a while. I was new, didn't know how to play, and didn't much care to learn better. Until I did, and I learned to do better, and thus I now tackle harder content with a lot more confidence.

If you don't want to ever care at all about your DPS because you are happy at the level of content you are playing? Great! You do you.

rauyran · November 2021

There are probably a lot of people who don't understand what they are doing wrong when they have gold gear from good sets equipped.

Someone should use the new stats to explain simply and clearly the reasons for the low DPS and how to improve. ELI5 style. Then link to that post from the first post in this thread with a "GO HERE TO LEARN HOW TO IMPROVE".

Elsonso · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you don't want to ever care at all about your DPS because you are happy at the level of content you are playing? Great! You do you.

I will say that the "don't care about DPS" extends to harder content, as well. I should clarify... it is about not really caring about _the number_ when damage is done. The number is certainly helpful to learn to increase damage and damage per second, but even if you use it for that, is it really necessary once you get to the point where happiness is achieved?

Ultimately, the reasons to care about DPS are (1) so boss dies before you do, (2) so boss dies faster, (3) others care what your DPS is. For me, it is in that order.

If I can achieve #1 with LA on a boss, then I am a long way to being happy. If it takes me 3 hours to do it (exaggeration) then #2 comes into play. If my party is carrying me because all I am doing is LA (exaggeration), then #3 comes into play.

etchedpixels · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

I tank, so I interpreted it in the light that a tank gets immediate feedback when they screw up: the boss kills them or a groupmate. Figuring out the mechanic might take some trial and error, but the results of error are generally quite clear and immediate. That tank knows what they need to do to improve.

That's far from the whole story. The first part of tanking is "don't die". The feedback for that is kind of easy to get. The second is keep the right things taunted - it's a bit more subtle but you can get a hang of it fairly quickly and there are good guides.

Positioning and buffs are a different matter, as is slotting the right balance of skill sets for the dungeon or trial. Telling whether you are providing the right buffs and the right moment is very hard indeed. Knowing that if you move the boss 3 steps to the left the DDs have a bit of extra dodge room for a given boss isn't immediate feedback.

Basic tanking (taunt, debuff, block) is easy. Getting to the point of (taunt, debuff, block, heavy attacks, synergies, turning bosses) takes a fair bit more effort. Getting all the stacking, chaining and positioning right takes time and practice.

VaranisArano · November 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I tank, so I interpreted it in the light that a tank gets immediate feedback when they screw up: the boss kills them or a groupmate. Figuring out the mechanic might take some trial and error, but the results of error are generally quite clear and immediate. That tank knows what they need to do to improve.

That's far from the whole story. The first part of tanking is "don't die". The feedback for that is kind of easy to get. The second is keep the right things taunted - it's a bit more subtle but you can get a hang of it fairly quickly and there are good guides.

Positioning and buffs are a different matter, as is slotting the right balance of skill sets for the dungeon or trial. Telling whether you are providing the right buffs and the right moment is very hard indeed. Knowing that if you move the boss 3 steps to the left the DDs have a bit of extra dodge room for a given boss isn't immediate feedback.

Basic tanking (taunt, debuff, block) is easy. Getting to the point of (taunt, debuff, block, heavy attacks, synergies, turning bosses) takes a fair bit more effort. Getting all the stacking, chaining and positioning right takes time and practice.

While I don't disagree with you about what good tanks do, you're kind of proving my point about the difference between how ESO teaches tanks and how it (doesn't) teach DPS.

Short of high end tanking, much of its fairly intuitive with a bit of trial and error.
-Taunt the heavy-hitters? Oh good, my squishy DD doesn't get smashed by a charging minotaur.
- My squishy DD friend got roasted by a fire mage? Alright, I'll chain them in. Hey, we burned them down quickly. Yay, that tactic works!
- Read a guide that says to drag the Harvesters around a corner to group them up? Try it out! Hey, that worked, guess I know what I'm going from now on.

Tanks find out their limits pretty quickly. The game teaches us that.

Ah, not so much with Damage Dealers.

For one, it's entirely possible to play loads and loads of hours and yet have no idea how much damage you do. "It's always been enough to kill stuff, right?"

Two, there's not a lot of individual DPS checks to clue players in that "Hey, it's taking me too long to kill this thing. Maybe I should improve." Most dungeon DPS checks are group DPS checks, up until the DLC where - surprise, surprise - dungeon runs fail with greater frequency as players start failing at the individual DPS checks when someone can't kill a mob fast enough. Even then, it's not uncommon for DDs to not recognize that their personal DPS is too low for the content unless they are specifically called out for it by a teammate.

Getting called out isn't a great way to get feedback. Especially since that feedback is often muddled by personal bias or ignorance! I joined a dungeon run where two leveling players were told their DPS was too low to bypass a mechanic. Well, it wasn't even a DPS mechanic to begin with - they just needed to get out of the healing circle. Their DPS was fine for the content and we finished the dungeon. Ironically, their DPS probably was a little low in the grand scheme of things and I may have robbed them of the chance to think about improving, LOL.

Basically unless you are putting yourself in situations where you get immediate, personal feedback about your own DPS i.e. combat metrics, encounter log, training dummies, or challenging solo fights like arenas, most players are not going to learn much about their DPS in order to improve. (And two of those are PC-only.)

acw37162 · November 2021

I built a tank once to try to get faster dungeon ques and it worked I got the dungeon I qued for as soon as qued and then the dungeon took about 30 - 60 min longer then it should have with just average DPS.

I went back to my DPSm, which is just slightly better then average and farmed mats while I wait in que.

It is a far more efficient use of my time

Magio_ · November 2021

It's ok to say a Tank is bad because they can't stay alive or if they can't hold aggro.

It's ok to say a Healer is a bad Healer if they can't stay alive or if they can't keep people alive or have low uptime on buffs or none at all.

It's ok to say a DPS is bad if they can't stay alive, but if you say they're a DPS is bad because they don't do their fair share of the DPS, suddenly all the casuals get out their pitchforks. I'm sorry, but there's mechanics that need a certain floor DPS to be passable. And no, I'm not talking about the 60-40 splits. I'm talking about the situations when a DPS looks at their CMX and it says 80%+ of the damage done while you know the Tank + Healer probably have ~10% between the two.

Even ZOS knows this to an extent. Some people in the community have been asking for a Random Trial Finder for a long time, but I can imagine the clownfiesta that would be with the amount of people queueing up for Trials they're clearly not ready for.

It's also not about not wanting to help newbies or even noobs. I'll teach mechanics to players new to a dungeon all the time, but I'm sorry if I believe knowing the basics of a good build and a good rotation is something you can and should learn outside of Veteran Dungeons and shouldn't expect strangers to teach you while actively running a Vet Dungeon. Or worse expect to get carried through.

VaranisArano · November 2021

Magio_ wrote: »

It's ok to say a Tank is bad because they can't stay alive or if they can't hold aggro.

It's ok to say a Healer is a bad Healer if they can't stay alive or if they can't keep people alive or have low uptime on buffs or none at all.

It's ok to say a DPS is bad if they can't stay alive, but if you say they're a DPS is bad because they don't do their fair share of the DPS, suddenly all the casuals get out their pitchforks. I'm sorry, but there's mechanics that need a certain floor DPS to be passable. And no, I'm not talking about the 60-40 splits. I'm talking about the situations when a DPS looks at their CMX and it says 80%+ of the damage done while you know the Tank + Healer probably have ~10% between the two.

Even ZOS knows this to an extent. Some people in the community have been asking for a Random Trial Finder for a long time, but I can imagine the clownfiesta that would be with the amount of people queueing up for Trials they're clearly not ready for.

It's also not about not wanting to help newbies or even noobs. I'll teach mechanics to players new to a dungeon all the time, but I'm sorry if I believe knowing the basics of a good build and a good rotation is something you can and should learn outside of Veteran Dungeons and shouldn't expect strangers to teach you while actively running a Vet Dungeon. Or worse expect to get carried through.

Unfortunately, knowing the basics of a good DD build and especially a good rotation is something you almost always learn outside of the game, period.

Skills Advisor is...okay. it's a start. It's better than when we used to have zero in-game indication that you really wanted to go either stamina or magicka and pick weapons and armor to match.

It's still not a substitute for finding good builds online and using their rotations.

amapola76 · November 2021

TheImperfect wrote: »

At the end of the dungeon you could have an extra 20 minutes before it kicks you out to have a look around.

This alone would be a great start. Shoot, I'd settle for an extra five minutes before being kicked out.

NylAR · November 2021

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Edit: I think I just found the answer.

Joined a random Trial pug, and this is what showed up on log:

Let's see what the ~9k range dps have and what they were doing during the fight:
Magplar no.1 (9228.7)

Gear: (All in correct traits)

Perfectly normal, right? (Except for the crown poison)
However...

Skills:

Wait...

Cast:

Now I see why their Sweep is doing a measly 3k dps even with all gold Medusa/Julianos/Slimecraw...

Magplar no.2 (9736.0)

Gear:

Huh???

Skills:

HUH?????

Cast:

Somehow this guy's Sweep is 2x the dps than the previous dude...
My brain is hurting so much right now...

Honorable mentions:

1. Magplar no.3, dps: 14,357.2

Skills:

2. Magsorc, dps: 12581.5

(Pets doing 4x more damage than their Elemental Weapon...)

Normally I'd be more than happy to give underperforming dps with the right gears some tips to boost their damage.
But I don't have the time to PM 6 complete strangers to point out their problems.

They were doing the right mechs and even got the 1st boss down to 15% health that attempt.
Almost all of them had bis gears with the correct traits.

Yet, no one told Magplar no.2 that, as a dps, their job is to damage the boss instead of adding heals.
No one told Magplar no.1 and no.3 that their skills are all over the place.
And no one told Magsorc no.4 that Force Shock is a much better spammable in real combats, and that Alcast only uses Elemental Weapon on parses.

All of the aforementioned dps were sitting >1000cp, some were even >1500cp.

This is why, it is possible for ppl to have <10k dps--Information inequality, the lack of critical thinking skills, and herd mentality

You can easily reach 17k dps by spamming light attack

You can easily reach 40k dps by spamming light attack + 2 skills

How is <10k dps even possible?

How did you inspect their gear and skills???

FrancisCrawford · November 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

markulrich1966 wrote: »

I also could not convince him to use Medusa jewelry and staves, or jewelry + chest and legs.

He insisted on wearing full heavy armor because he would lose armor bonus with light armor.

This is remarkably familiar. This is a run I had with someone not too long ago. Completely anonymous and not naming names.

I've actually seen this sort of thing a lot, @markulrich1966. I can't tell if this is just people seeing "Medusa+XYZ" mentioned by content creators, guild mates, friends, etc. and then misunderstanding the armour passives.

Also, shout out to the gold restoration staff wielding DD who doesn't have any restoration skills slotted. I'm not even going to touch on anything else in this screenshot and it's not meant to mock or shame anyone's playstyle. You do you. This is just in comparison and contradiction to the the OP's screenshots -- this is what I would call the "average," and even this is the higher end of that average; they even have two five piece sets and it's in Divines. I would be curious to see what sort of DPS you can get from this "build" using just light attacks on a 3m dummy with only Major Breach. Just a hunch, but it's probably not 17k.

The presence of Siroria gear is compelling evidence that this wasn't his first trial.

perfiction · November 2021

NylAR wrote: »

How did you inspect their gear and skills???

/encounterlog command, then upload the log to https://esologs.com/

Juomuuri · November 2021

This is quite interesting, just read the updated OP.

It's entirely okay to have meta gear while also not doing lots of DPS. There are always a myriad of reasons for any given player to not perform "good enough" for someone's standards. It's also possible and okay to perform very well even without meta gear.

There's also this thing that's performing well with a trial dummy. For example, I tried parsing with a trial dummy today for the first time ever, and then pulled 48K after a lil practice (was using my magblade). BUT: you also need to learn how to do your rotation on the field. I installed Combat Metrics just to test this out - and mind you, I'm still doing that lousy 12K I mentioned earalier, in dungeons with no buffs... or de-buffs on the boss(es). One reason for low DPS could be, that a player hasn't learned their rotation yet, or struggles with weaving. And it's all fine. It's a process. Hey, I'm learning too!

Also, not everyone with a lot of CP is good at end game content. The XP can come from questing, as it is with my case, for example. Even someone at 2000 CP could be getting into trials for the first time, and it would be super rude to assume they know everything and are the bestest of bestest of the best in DPS. Everyone starts from somewhere, and everyone's journey is different.

drunkendx · December 2021

PullaStormy wrote: »

Also, not everyone with a lot of CP is good at end game content. The XP can come from questing, as it is with my case, for example. Even someone at 2000 CP could be getting into trials for the first time, and it would be super rude to assume they know everything and are the bestest of bestest of the best in DPS. Everyone starts from somewhere, and everyone's journey is different.

OP could take a note of comment I quoted.