Did I do something really bad?

Kwoung · November 2021

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

I only do pug in my healer, and when I do I am a 100% healer, I do not use cheap excuses or justify anything, if the dps is low and a 15-minute run lasts 30-minutes, so be it.

You would be surprised how many times I have been congratulated for my patience and for being a 100% healer in a pug.

kick fake tanks, kick fake healers.

Sorry, but my time is very precious. If the dps is too low I will either add more dps or leave.

You don't think that everyone else's time is very precious?

If I'm in a dungeon and the healer tells me to slot a self heal, I'm going to complain. Do your job or queue as a DPS.

Hmm... I was under the impression everyone already has a self-heal/ward slotted. The healers "job" in almost all content is to keep the tank alive, if the DPS want heals, they should stand in a spot where they can also partake of them, but that in no way negates the fact that every DPS should be able to stay alive on their own.

trackdemon5512 · November 2021

There is a reason why Moon Hunter Keep was so hated before if was hard nerfed. Every single encounter in there has mechanics that must be followed.

- First Boss: Bash when tank gets pinned or they die
- Second Boss: Invincible during Spriggan Heal Phases/stay together in the hedge mazes for transformation interrupts
- Third Boss: Interrupt when player is pinned/Kill adds that enrage the main boss
- Fourth Boss: enemy damage decreases the farther away from the main boss you are/stand in your individual rune circle to avoid damage
- Final Boss: Incredibly easy if you slow down and follow mechanics. Almost guaranteed wipe when mechanics were ignored and everything enraged

Even on normal it was a massive pain because players just ignored even learning mechanics. They would kick anyone who told them different and rotate constantly through players. It was an exercise in futility.

If you were brave enough to enter with a pug you know you had to fill the role of DPS/Healer/and Tank simultaneously because you couldn’t count on anyone else.

amapola76 · November 2021

In AITA terms, this is an ESH scenario.

Mythgard1967 · November 2021

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

players that have such low dps, at cp 160 or above, are a warning sign, op.
[snip]

Hmmm this is pretty much why I only do those dungeons I can solo. Pretty much; because, I am an untrained monkey.

I am well above 160 cp; I am more than willing to learn but I am not willing to subject others to my learning curve because of comments like these. I had a large gap in play time from when I earned my CP and playing now; so I assume most people will just assume I am stupid or recalcitrant....so soloing dungeons is just ....well...free of this kind of toxicity.

I can read up on the mechanics...screw up a ton before I get it right and then move on to the next one and no one is passing judgement on me. I just wish they wouldnt put in door mechanics that require two people (I am looking at you Direfrost)....but its ok....I bring someone in to help me open the door and keep on moving.

[edited to remove quote]

amapola76 · November 2021

Look, part of the problem is that everyone, and I do mean everyone, has different ideas of what a healer should do, exactly. I always queue as a healer, and I've had people yell at me for only healing and yell at me for not only healing.

So to a certain extent, you have to work out for yourself the best approach. For me, it's something like (a) always keeping an eye on every other group member's health, (b) doing more healing when one or more of the group members are lower level or unusually squishy, and (c) doing damage when I can between heals if everyone else is doing well. It's a dance, and I don't always nail it perfectly, but I'm usually moving between damage over time/AOE damage, heavy attacks to keep my magicka bar full, and heals.

But there are a few fairly common standards, like having a restoration staff equipped and, you know, making some basic effort to keep everyone else alive. It sounds like you sort of unilaterally decided, nope, don't feel like doing that, and just went off and did your own thing, and then got snarky when you were called out for it. It shouldn't be a surprise that this might bother people. That's a totally separate issue from whether the group didn't know or care about the mechanics.

DagenHawk · November 2021

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Just had the following joyful conversation with some lovely people: (normal Scalecaller Peak)
(Yellow is me, white is tank, pink is dps)

They didn't even let me finish explaining the mech.

I always have both my healer and dps sets on me, so that I can switch based on the circumstance. In this case I thought the group dps was too low, so I switched on my dps set instead.

I don't know what I did wrong to make them so aggressive towards me.

The companion system is going to flesh out a bit more and the need to deal with zeldawipers like that will be over. still if you grab a friend that has a decent set and have both of your companions maxed out it's perfectly doable, and it's only going to get better from here.

So be of good cheer.

Kwoung · November 2021

DagenHawk wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Just had the following joyful conversation with some lovely people: (normal Scalecaller Peak)

I always have both my healer and dps sets on me, so that I can switch based on the circumstance. In this case I thought the group dps was too low, so I switched on my dps set instead.

I don't know what I did wrong to make them so aggressive towards me.

The companion system is going to flesh out a bit more and the need to deal with zeldawipers like that will be over. still if you grab a friend that has a decent set and have both of your companions maxed out it's perfectly doable, and it's only going to get better from here.

So be of good cheer.

Ummm.. the fight in question would probably be the last place a companion would be considered helpful, and would more likely than not, cause you to wipe.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2021

With group DPS of 22k, there was a lot of bad going around...

TiberX · November 2021

Alright, ill throw my 2 cents here:

-our healer gives some good advice , unsolicited its true but esential for completion -its his fault cos the others are sensitive
-he does some dps to complete the dungeon in that particular day ( not to say he didnt heal at all) it hes fault! because others go dungeonig with rubedite cuirass of magica and purple mahogany staff
-he got insulted , laughed at because he was carrying them and stil he got kicked, well, its natural, the "dps-es " got their feelings hurt

Alemtuzumab and all others like him->Just do 1 thing -> leave the goup, dont carry them anymore, switch char so u dont have to wait for the cooldown and go for another run, maybe ull get luckier and no more drama, all are happy.

DagenHawk · November 2021

Kwoung wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Just had the following joyful conversation with some lovely people: (normal Scalecaller Peak)

I always have both my healer and dps sets on me, so that I can switch based on the circumstance. In this case I thought the group dps was too low, so I switched on my dps set instead.

I don't know what I did wrong to make them so aggressive towards me.

The companion system is going to flesh out a bit more and the need to deal with zeldawipers like that will be over. still if you grab a friend that has a decent set and have both of your companions maxed out it's perfectly doable, and it's only going to get better from here.

So be of good cheer.

Ummm.. the fight in question would probably be the last place a companion would be considered helpful, and would more likely than not, cause you to wipe.

Iv'e done it with my wife...we had the right gear our companions were maxxed out...it wasn't that hard.

atherusmora · November 2021

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Just had the following joyful conversation with some lovely people: (normal Scalecaller Peak)
(Yellow is me, white is tank, pink is dps)

They didn't even let me finish explaining the mech.

I always have both my healer and dps sets on me, so that I can switch based on the circumstance. In this case I thought the group dps was too low, so I switched on my dps set instead.

I don't know what I did wrong to make them so aggressive towards me.

Based on this snippet it appears you were frustrated with the group. The mech tutorial may have come across a bit presumptuous. This would make me slightly annoyed in a PUG. That said the data would quickly make me pay attention, but then again most PUGs aren’t so open minded when [snip] is hitting the ceiling.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Sheezabeast · November 2021

Purely objectively speaking, if this was a random normal, it lends leniency to this experience for the entire party. I also have to point out that the party pointed out their frustration that they had to slot less DPS skills to make room for self heals, because the healer chose to not heal. This, comorbid with the tanks inexperience with the mechanics, AND the OP's overall attitude (I mean come on, you mailed them a potato, you're being a bully here) I think that everyone involved was at fault. No one likes someone throwing around numbers and mechanics and then not healing like they were assigned to do. If you were not satisfied with their DPS output or the tanks experience with the mechanics, the onus is on you to leave the group, say you have to go IRL and ask to be kicked. Log out. Port out. Something. In this case, Democracy worked, and they voted you out because you were not fulfilling your job as healer, which they expected.

atherusmora · November 2021

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Purely objectively speaking, if this was a random normal, it lends leniency to this experience for the entire party. I also have to point out that the party pointed out their frustration that they had to slot less DPS skills to make room for self heals, because the healer chose to not heal. This, comorbid with the tanks inexperience with the mechanics, AND the OP's overall attitude (I mean come on, you mailed them a potato, you're being a bully here) I think that everyone involved was at fault. No one likes someone throwing around numbers and mechanics and then not healing like they were assigned to do. If you were not satisfied with their DPS output or the tanks experience with the mechanics, the onus is on you to leave the group, say you have to go IRL and ask to be kicked. Log out. Port out. Something. In this case, Democracy worked, and they voted you out because you were not fulfilling your job as healer, which they expected.

Democracy worked. #enoughsaid

Kwoung · November 2021

DagenHawk wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Just had the following joyful conversation with some lovely people: (normal Scalecaller Peak)

I always have both my healer and dps sets on me, so that I can switch based on the circumstance. In this case I thought the group dps was too low, so I switched on my dps set instead.

I don't know what I did wrong to make them so aggressive towards me.

The companion system is going to flesh out a bit more and the need to deal with zeldawipers like that will be over. still if you grab a friend that has a decent set and have both of your companions maxed out it's perfectly doable, and it's only going to get better from here.

So be of good cheer.

Ummm.. the fight in question would probably be the last place a companion would be considered helpful, and would more likely than not, cause you to wipe.

Iv'e done it with my wife...we had the right gear our companions were maxxed out...it wasn't that hard.

Well honestly, it isn't that hard to duo in general companions or not. My thought was more about your companion keeping the bosses from being separated and not being able to follow other mechanics that would result in their untimely demise. I suspect if it went well for you, you probably know how to command your pets, which is something most players don't, are not even aware that it exists, or simply don't want to micromanage them in the first place, so they simply let them do as they will.

drsalvation · November 2021

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

I only do pug in my healer, and when I do I am a 100% healer, I do not use cheap excuses or justify anything, if the dps is low and a 15-minute run lasts 30-minutes, so be it.

You would be surprised how many times I have been congratulated for my patience and for being a 100% healer in a pug.

kick fake tanks, kick fake healers.

yeah, I remember tanking banished cells II in vet, their DPS was low, but I still wanted to complete the additional challenge of having at least 3 daedroths alive, so the whole group focused on the boss, while I stayed on the platform to taunt every daedroth.
Not a single daedroth died during that battle... And there were 9 in total (I did end up dying in the last moment when the 10th daedroth spawned, and saw the whole train of daaedroth approach the DPS players right before they all vanished as the boss was finally killed).
The whole dungeon felt endless. But that's life in PUGs, you queue up for a role, you focus on that role 100% with no excuse.
We're talking about a group of random people who don't know each other, I don't know your builds, I don't know what skills you have, I don't know if you've done solo arenas before, I don't know if you can take a blow from a boss... All I can do is count on you doing your role as you should and that you know what has to be done. If anyone gets out of their way to fulfill another role (or to quickly run ahead, "pull" all the trash mobs that will eventually start attacking the other players), I don't know what you're doing, and more importantly, I don't know what you expect us to do.

Switching from healer to DPS without warning, and then shoving your DPS output on another DPS's face is what in bird culture is considered as a [snip] move

(snip'd myself to make it easier on the mods, not sure if that word would've gotten edited anyway lol)

newtinmpls · November 2021

Kwoung wrote: »

I was under the impression everyone already has a self-heal/ward slotted.

My first response to this would be "then why bother with a healer?"

Kwoung wrote: »

The healers "job" in almost all content is to keep the tank alive, if the DPS want heals, they should stand in a spot where they can also partake of them, but that in no way negates the fact that every DPS should be able to stay alive on their own.

crossed out the bit I disagree with - it's taking up a slot that could be useful for damage.

I do agree that if the DPS go bounding about, THEN they need a self heal - or they need to drag whatever they've aggro-ed back to the tank.

Or both.

newtinmpls · November 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

Switching from healer to DPS without warning, and then shoving your DPS output on another DPS's face is what in bird culture is considered as a [snip] move

I do appreciate your self-snippage (that sounded MUCH better in my head).

Do I want to know what "bird culture" is?

Kwoung · November 2021

newtinmpls wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I was under the impression everyone already has a self-heal/ward slotted.

My first response to this would be "then why bother with a healer?"

Kwoung wrote: »

The healers "job" in almost all content is to keep the tank alive, if the DPS want heals, they should stand in a spot where they can also partake of them, but that in no way negates the fact that every DPS should be able to stay alive on their own.

crossed out the bit I disagree with - it's taking up a slot that could be useful for damage.

I do agree that if the DPS go bounding about, THEN they need a self heal - or they need to drag whatever they've aggro-ed back to the tank.

Or both.

Well, for the DPS classes I have played, self healing and doing damage are not mutually exclusive. Sorcs have Crit Surge which gives major sorcery and Brutality and on me at least, provides 3700 HPS and I also have the biggest single ward in the game, NB's have Leeching Strikes, Swallow Soul, an execute heal (great for adds) and the list goes on across (all?) the other classes. Maybe it's just every class I have played, but isn't at least one of the 3 class skill lines for every single classes at least partially healing/sustain based? The healers role should bring *WAY* more to the party than just heals, usually in the form of buffs that increase sustain, damage, mitigation and all sorts of other stuff.

ESO is not Wow, or EQ, or any other game and the "Holy Trinity" here doesn't mean what it meant in other games. In those other games a healer healed, and a Shaman or whatever supplied group buffs, the DPS, they DPSed... in ESO the healers are responsible for many things. Which is why keeping the tank alive (if he even needs it, many don't much), making sure everyone has as many buffs running so they can operate at their optimum, and if time/situation allows, jumping in with some DPS, because even the "healer" classes, come with a DPS line.

In ESO players have a "primary" role, that doesn't mean they get to ignore everything else they can and should be doing, and rely on someone else to cover it, and get mad because the healer let them die. I play DPS, when I die its on me, I screwed up, I was out of position, I stood in stupid, I was in the wrong spot and didn't block the attack, or I let some dumb little adds pile up on me (a whole other issue on its own) and didn't pop a ward and run over to let the tank peel them off like I should have, which oddly, would also place me right in the primary spot of any heals the healer happens to be casting land and all the HOTs are baking away at.

Anyways, that's my take on the matter, based on how ZOS has distributed skills across the various DPS classes and made many of the self heals... also do damage. The soul exception to this IMHO, is trials *if* you have a pre-made optimized group. Then as a DPS, you can and should be counting on someone else to keep you alive, but pug trials and all content below that, you need to be way more well rounded.

Aertew · November 2021

What addon did u use for group DPS?

Kwoung · November 2021

Aertew wrote: »

What addon did u use for group DPS?

Combat metrics shows your DPS and the % of the group DPS you are doing and is the addon the OP and most use for dummy parsing.

ESO Logs on the other hand, is a very robust out of game tool that uses the /encounterlog command and uploads the resulting data to their website, which then breaks everything down, to the level of what gear (and if it is green/blue/purple/gold), how much DPS/HPS, both skill bars of every player in the group, their rotation for the most part... and even shows each players position in the room during the entire fight on a replay mode (at least on trials for sure). It is fun to go back and watch some clown DPS running around with 5 adds chasing them and never once get near the tank or the healer. It is also great for watching yourself and seeing what you could have done better.

https://www.esologs.com/

Saieden · November 2021

If you're generally comfortable with vet content, there is no reason NOT to wear a dps set and a few skills in normal dungeons, even dlc. You just don't need 10 skill slots dedicated to healing and other support functions, most fights are over before you can even use half of them, and the bosses rarely do so much damage that you need more than 2 good HoTs and a burst heal.

Sometimes members of the group, for whatever reason, just lack skill, knowledge and/or gear

OP could've been a bit more subtle,

newtinmpls wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I was under the impression everyone already has a self-heal/ward slotted.

My first response to this would be "then why bother with a healer?"

If you and your group can play absolutely perfectly, there is no need for a self heal. In most groups however, bad things happen and a self heal is a matter of safety, not to replace the healer themselves. A simple example, you need to res the other DD through some low to mid damage with adds running around, but the healer needs to focus on keeping the tank alive from chokehold mechanics (eg Frostvault Troll). Pop a vigor or shield, and you're probably twice as likely to get them up without dying yourself.

Pevey · November 2021

First, I agree here that democracy worked, and if he was truly asking a question in this thread [snip], I hope he got his answer. From the responses, it seems like he probably didn’t.

Also, just want to point out that combat metrics can be misleading in situations where you are not tagging all enemies. If you are focusing one boss, while others are dpsing the other boss, it will show the total dps as lower than it actually is, and this will appear that you have an artificially large portion of total dps. Not sure if that happened here, but something to consider.

Secondly, you should be able to throw sufficient heals and do at least 40-50k if think you are good enough to do both roles in a normal random. In my opinion, it’s totally fine to pull double duty in a normal and queue for tank or healer while doing mostly dps, but if you do that, you better bloody well be as good as you think you are. And you’d better actually rank or heal, in addition to the dps you are doing. It is totally possible. I do it all the time. But if you queue as healer and you get 2 5k potato dps, yes, it IS your job to heal them. That is what you signed up for.

[edited for baiting]

Alarde · November 2021

You should have kept wiping with them.

This is the way.

Chrysa1is · November 2021

No reason for the PUGs to take offence to what you said. You literally did nothing wrong. Just take their insolence on the chin and move on from it fellow adventurer!

spartaxoxo · November 2021

Chrysa1is wrote: »

No reason for the PUGs to take offence to what you said. You literally did nothing wrong. Just take their insolence on the chin and move on from it fellow adventurer!

Did not heal when agreed to heal, contributing to their death.

Bragged about their dps to justify not doing what they agreed to do

Told other people how to play their role (melee taunt!) while not doing their own agreed upon job on purpose

They were all in the wrong.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · November 2021

I never saw whether your group was wiping or not and if so what were you wiping to? If you weren't wiping then it is best to keep your mouth shut in a PUG. If you were wiping to mechanics then saying something simple that mechanics matter in this dungeon should suffice. If it was due to low DPS then an offer to switch to a DPS set and stop healing would be appropriate but if the rest of the group says "No" then you live with it or leave the group.

I think most of the problem was with you. This is a PUG not an organized group so there is no leader. Your constant harping at others to do this or do that comes across as trying to assert leadership. Your switch from healing to DPS was also wrong as it was done without group consensus or warning. Lastly you need to keep in mind a lot of casual players don't care if they wipe once, twice or a few times as long as they eventually complete the dungeon. In the end if you expect organized group behavior or have problems with wipes you should be the one to leave or form a group of your own.

Darrett · November 2021

Rather than switch your role without communication, you should have adjusted your play style within your role.

I’ve healed lots of mechanics-ignoring groups through nSCP by using a damage shield centric setup. SCP has very telegraphed damage sources, giving you lots of opportunity to provide health buffers to prevent one-shot kills. Then the DPS people can continue to contribute since they’re not dead and/or having to repeatedly bar swap to a self heal outside of rotation.

Doing someone else’s job is just plain rude, particularly if you don’t communicate and get buy in from the group.

SeaGtGruff · November 2021

Alarde wrote: »

You should have kept wiping with them.

This is the way.

Or just leave the group and try to find a different group. The OP said in one of their replies that their time was too precious and in these sorts of situations they either switch roles or just leave the group.

I don't have any really strong opinions about switching roles in a group, since as a general rule I don't PUG, so I can sort of lean either way, although it also depends on the circumstances.

On the one hand, I think that in a good group the members should be able to adapt as needed to make up for any difficulties (slack, inexperience, deficiency, whatever term you prefer) that one or more members are having. But that would ideally be in a group where all members knew each other, were on friendly terms with each other, were comfortable jumping from one role to another, and were communicating with each other about what needed to be done and who was proposing to do what. The ideal situation would be where all of the members were in voice chat together, so no one had to get distracted by having to type messages or read what others had typed.

But on the other hand, a group of random strangers thrown together can't really be expected to be able to coordinate that way, so each member needs to cut the rest of the team some slack, avoid stepping on each other's toes so to speak, and generally be understanding and respectful toward one another. In that sort of situation, it would probably be best if everyone just stuck to whichever role they'd queued for, and endeavor to perform their role to the best of their ability.

Elsonso · November 2021

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

But on the other hand, a group of random strangers thrown together can't really be expected to be able to coordinate that way, so each member needs to cut the rest of the team some slack, avoid stepping on each other's toes so to speak, and generally be understanding and respectful toward one another. In that sort of situation, it would probably be best if everyone just stuck to whichever role they'd queued for, and endeavor to perform their role to the best of their ability.

PUGs are a potpourri of fascinating anti-social behaviors, if you are into watching that sort of thing. Heck, just this event I watched the tank go zooming through a normal dungeon, and of course, others were not keeping up. After everyone arrived at the final boss and things were in full swing, I noticed the tank just standing off to the side. He just stood there until the rest of us killed the big nasty spider. Big Bad vanquished, he then jumped in, grabbed the loot, and was gone lickety-split. Dunno what burr got in his britches.

Kwoung · November 2021

Elsonso wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

But on the other hand, a group of random strangers thrown together can't really be expected to be able to coordinate that way, so each member needs to cut the rest of the team some slack, avoid stepping on each other's toes so to speak, and generally be understanding and respectful toward one another. In that sort of situation, it would probably be best if everyone just stuck to whichever role they'd queued for, and endeavor to perform their role to the best of their ability.

PUGs are a potpourri of fascinating anti-social behaviors, if you are into watching that sort of thing. Heck, just this event I watched the tank go zooming through a normal dungeon, and of course, others were not keeping up. After everyone arrived at the final boss and things were in full swing, I noticed the tank just standing off to the side. He just stood there until the rest of us killed the big nasty spider. Big Bad vanquished, he then jumped in, grabbed the loot, and was gone lickety-split. Dunno what burr got in his britches.

Maybe he reads these forums and didn't want to be that guy who finishes the boss before everyone arrived? Seems like good middle ground to me, bum rush the dungeon, wait at the final boss and do nothing more than get a hit in. He controlled the pace, didn't screw anyone over, and didn't put in any effort... ROFL.