Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

Brenticus12 wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

I had new found appreciation of ESO combat after playing New World. Locked in animation combat is the worst thing to happen to any MMO.

Genuinely think people should play New World's combat and see how restrictive it feels lol. I enjoy New World's combat but that's just cause I like the SFX and some of the skills working together.

However it feels extremely restrictive. The only animation cancel that I know of in New World is a basic Light Attack -> Skill which is fine and works well enough. However everything else is extremely restrictive and clunky and it feels like your character is sluggish and incapable of responding to you when you want him to do something. Action committment is good to a certain amount but the amount in New World is pretty annoyingly slow.

animation cancel should not be in ESO. It's confusing, and leads to abuse. It was a bug, and they let it stay.

• Imho spamables should not exist. Instead weapons should have different swings on direction movement+jump (plus hold for light/med/heavy).
• No animations should be canceled, as it just looks *** (and yes bash, light weave looks like your character has an epilepsy).
• Object colision should be much better and smoother experience.

SkillzMFG wrote: »

Who cares what people who never played ESO think about ESO's combat. Their opinion is completely invaild.

Hurbster wrote: »

On MMO forums I read I hear things like:

"The combat is the only reason I don’t play ESO".
"Here’s me hoping that New World’s launch will make ZOS improve stuff on ESO, like animations, capes and the AH".
"If ESO could improve its combat system to not be absolutely trash it would kill most other MMOs with the rest of the content it offers".
"They fix the combat and add an AH to get rid of that awful trade guild (aka pay us to be here) system and I’ll consider playing the game again".

Those are literally from one topic on Massively about the Deadlands release date and I see these comments all the time.

bluebird wrote: »

Oof, there's so much misinformation... It's fine to like a certain system, but let's not applaud it based on reasons that don't make sense. In almost every aspect I can name a game that does it better than ESO. The combat really is quite bad.

- Regarding "fast-paced combat": quick combat is not exclusive to ESO, and it's not synonymous with repetitive button-mashing. GW2's Weaver with Alac and Quickness plays piano on all its keys just as fast as anything in ESO, same as Firebrand, Engineer, you name it. If you played WoW Fire Mage after getting enough crit, you're firing off fire blasts, phoenixes, pyroblasts in rapid succession as well. In fact, mashing through your various ability keys is much more engaging than having to spam the same light attack button.

- And on that note, regarding rotations: ESO's customisable builds don't result in more variety, and that freedom ironically makes things far more similar and more pre-determined. When people have free access to the best damage skill, the best buff skill, the best CC skill, everyone will want to use those, and only those, instead of inferior options. This results in virtually every dps build having the same rotation of "buff up, apply DoTs, and spam your spammable while weaving inbetween it all". Honestly, a Frost Mage, Arcane Mage, and Fire Mage in WoW have more rotation variety within a single class than all of ESO's dps builds combined.

- This is in a large part due to the cooldown issue: In GW2, the Thief class has no cooldowns on their abilities, and are limited only by their resources... which results in the same braindead 'rotation' of picking the strongest skills and spamming those like in ESO. In other games, players need to keep track of several abilities to press them as soon as they're off cooldown, or abilities that need to pressed in a certain sequence, or trying to line up your burst windows by optimising how and when to use your impactful abilities which is engaging and rewarding. Not just... "reapply this whenever it runs out, but it's always available to cast don't worry".

- And that applies to buffs as major offenders too: Depending on the class, you can have access to around 3-5 short-term "you do more damage" buttons. How is that good combat design? Wow has figured it out, and ESO should catch up, but buff gameplay isn't engaging. If it's just a flat out damage bonus without any cooldown, just make it last 30-60mins. If a buff is short-term, it needs to be calculated, impactful, and not always available - e.g. a short-term burst where you strike twice that you may want to save for when the adds spawn, or a short-term bonus to damage you want to activate when you have to break through the boss' shield. Having to dedicate half of your available skill slots for short-term buffs that you can and should keep up all the time anyway is completely pointless.

- Regarding targeting and "skill": tab-targeting isn't in any way worse than ESO, and ESO doesn't need particular skill. Many skills in all games do damage in an area, or in front of you, so you need to be in range and face the mobs anyway, and ESO isn't any more precise - it's not like you need to line up headshots with snipe lol, you just mouse over the target and press the ability... just as in "tab-targeting" games we use mouse-over to target. Furthermore, ESO is incapable of recreating more precise mechanics that tab-targeting games can do for this reason - there is no precision-bash, or precision-spin-to-win. In other games, there can be a single mob in a swarm that needs to be interrupted suddenly, even spells that mustn't be interrupted or you wipe, or if you need to do damage to some priority target while avoiding doing damage to the other mobs that reflect it back at your party; ESO doesn't have such mechanics because it doesn't have precise targeting.

- Regarding complexity and reactive gameplay: ESO's combat isn't innovative, original, complex, anything of the sort. It's really basic, borrowing from hack-and-slash button-mashers but still coupling it with the many skills on an MMO, and it doesn't match well. It's really static, predictable, and repetitive, and being able to dodge or block doesn't change that. GW2 includes dodges too, in fact some builds even weaponize their dodges as part of their rotation, similarly in WoW some classes have movement skills and positioning in their rotation. But WoW for example is better than GW2 and ESO because it has procs - quick, instant-reacting skills that require you to pay attention and manage your class well instead of going through the same skills on a timer while mashing the mouse.

- Regarding animations and the GCD: This is really the elephant in the room isn't it. And it all derives from the fact that the devs weren't able to code the game to have the player interrupt an action without the damage registering as complete, and decided to embrace it. Don't get me wrong, being able to interrupt actions is good, but if the cast time of the spell is 1s, then doing anything other than that in that 1s shouldn't make it land. ESO has skills that are not instant, that have long animations, but which they expect you to cancel - if players aren't supposed to complete those animations, why even make them that long in the first place??? Wow and GW2 do it far more smartly, as they have skills they can cast off the GCD between other abilities. They have no lengthy janky animations, they are designed to fire off quickly while you're using your GCD for something else. The end result is me channeling my flamethrower, while shooting a homing rocket from my utility belt - a far more elegant solution than my ESO character spazzing out between spell casts, with a weapon that keeps appearing and disappearing for a split-second Light Attack between spell animations lol.

- On that note, regarding a smaller skill bar: I hate to say it, but an ancient game like GW1 (yes, one) had a better skill system than ESO. You could change your build point allocation at any rest zone, and create a loadout of a limited number of skills you wanted to take. And there were actually choices, rather than the kindergarden-level system of ESO, because a smaller limited skill bar doesn't automatically mean it should be repetitive. GW1 wasn't just about buff-debuff-DoT-damage, it had unique skills that resulted in actually unique combat. Dervish skills that triggered when you applied or lost a buff, assassin combo skills you had to activate in a specific sequence, Paragon echoes that refreshed their duration if you used a Shout or Chant, Elementalist skills that did extra damage in exchange for reducing your resource cap for some time, etc. Even in GW2 the devs are pushing the envelope when it comes to unique skills, class mechanics, novel ways to play, not just the same button-mashing across the board.

- Combos / Synergies are another example of the basic-ness of ESO combat design: Synergies are the most banal idea of teamwork ever. You get a flashing button every 10 seconds and you press it for "instant teamwork" What is this? In GW2 abilities interact with each other and other players in unique and meaningful ways. If my Ranger lays down a poison trap and starts to shoot enemies through it, the projectiles will apply poison. If my Weaver friend leaps to the fray in a fire AoE, they will be engulfed in a Fire Aura which damages mobs that attack, and if my Warrior stomps in a healing spring, they will splash healing waters around themselves to everyone. It's far more complex and interactive than "Oh, your teamwork button is flashing, here's a sound cue too, press the button"

bluebird wrote: »

Oof, there's so much misinformation... It's fine to like a certain system, but let's not applaud it based on reasons that don't make sense. In almost every aspect I can name a game that does it better than ESO. The combat really is quite bad.

- Regarding "fast-paced combat": quick combat is not exclusive to ESO, and it's not synonymous with repetitive button-mashing. GW2's Weaver with Alac and Quickness plays piano on all its keys just as fast as anything in ESO, same as Firebrand, Engineer, you name it. If you played WoW Fire Mage after getting enough crit, you're firing off fire blasts, phoenixes, pyroblasts in rapid succession as well. In fact, mashing through your various ability keys is much more engaging than having to spam the same light attack button.

- And on that note, regarding rotations: ESO's customisable builds don't result in more variety, and that freedom ironically makes things far more similar and more pre-determined. When people have free access to the best damage skill, the best buff skill, the best CC skill, everyone will want to use those, and only those, instead of inferior options. This results in virtually every dps build having the same rotation of "buff up, apply DoTs, and spam your spammable while weaving inbetween it all". Honestly, a Frost Mage, Arcane Mage, and Fire Mage in WoW have more rotation variety within a single class than all of ESO's dps builds combined.

- This is in a large part due to the cooldown issue: In GW2, the Thief class has no cooldowns on their abilities, and are limited only by their resources... which results in the same braindead 'rotation' of picking the strongest skills and spamming those like in ESO. In other games, players need to keep track of several abilities to press them as soon as they're off cooldown, or abilities that need to pressed in a certain sequence, or trying to line up your burst windows by optimising how and when to use your impactful abilities which is engaging and rewarding. Not just... "reapply this whenever it runs out, but it's always available to cast don't worry".

- And that applies to buffs as major offenders too: Depending on the class, you can have access to around 3-5 short-term "you do more damage" buttons. How is that good combat design? Wow has figured it out, and ESO should catch up, but buff gameplay isn't engaging. If it's just a flat out damage bonus without any cooldown, just make it last 30-60mins. If a buff is short-term, it needs to be calculated, impactful, and not always available - e.g. a short-term burst where you strike twice that you may want to save for when the adds spawn, or a short-term bonus to damage you want to activate when you have to break through the boss' shield. Having to dedicate half of your available skill slots for short-term buffs that you can and should keep up all the time anyway is completely pointless.

- Regarding targeting and "skill": tab-targeting isn't in any way worse than ESO, and ESO doesn't need particular skill. Many skills in all games do damage in an area, or in front of you, so you need to be in range and face the mobs anyway, and ESO isn't any more precise - it's not like you need to line up headshots with snipe lol, you just mouse over the target and press the ability... just as in "tab-targeting" games we use mouse-over to target. Furthermore, ESO is incapable of recreating more precise mechanics that tab-targeting games can do for this reason - there is no precision-bash, or precision-spin-to-win. In other games, there can be a single mob in a swarm that needs to be interrupted suddenly, even spells that mustn't be interrupted or you wipe, or if you need to do damage to some priority target while avoiding doing damage to the other mobs that reflect it back at your party; ESO doesn't have such mechanics because it doesn't have precise targeting.

- Regarding complexity and reactive gameplay: ESO's combat isn't innovative, original, complex, anything of the sort. It's really basic, borrowing from hack-and-slash button-mashers but still coupling it with the many skills on an MMO, and it doesn't match well. It's really static, predictable, and repetitive, and being able to dodge or block doesn't change that. GW2 includes dodges too, in fact some builds even weaponize their dodges as part of their rotation, similarly in WoW some classes have movement skills and positioning in their rotation. But WoW for example is better than GW2 and ESO because it has procs - quick, instant-reacting skills that require you to pay attention and manage your class well instead of going through the same skills on a timer while mashing the mouse.

- Regarding animations and the GCD: This is really the elephant in the room isn't it. And it all derives from the fact that the devs weren't able to code the game to have the player interrupt an action without the damage registering as complete, and decided to embrace it. Don't get me wrong, being able to interrupt actions is good, but if the cast time of the spell is 1s, then doing anything other than that in that 1s shouldn't make it land. ESO has skills that are not instant, that have long animations, but which they expect you to cancel - if players aren't supposed to complete those animations, why even make them that long in the first place??? Wow and GW2 do it far more smartly, as they have skills they can cast off the GCD between other abilities. They have no lengthy janky animations, they are designed to fire off quickly while you're using your GCD for something else. The end result is me channeling my flamethrower, while shooting a homing rocket from my utility belt - a far more elegant solution than my ESO character spazzing out between spell casts, with a weapon that keeps appearing and disappearing for a split-second Light Attack between spell animations lol.

- On that note, regarding a smaller skill bar: I hate to say it, but an ancient game like GW1 (yes, one) had a better skill system than ESO. You could change your build point allocation at any rest zone, and create a loadout of a limited number of skills you wanted to take. And there were actually choices, rather than the kindergarden-level system of ESO, because a smaller limited skill bar doesn't automatically mean it should be repetitive. GW1 wasn't just about buff-debuff-DoT-damage, it had unique skills that resulted in actually unique combat. Dervish skills that triggered when you applied or lost a buff, assassin combo skills you had to activate in a specific sequence, Paragon echoes that refreshed their duration if you used a Shout or Chant, Elementalist skills that did extra damage in exchange for reducing your resource cap for some time, etc. Even in GW2 the devs are pushing the envelope when it comes to unique skills, class mechanics, novel ways to play, not just the same button-mashing across the board.

- Combos / Synergies are another example of the basic-ness of ESO combat design: Synergies are the most banal idea of teamwork ever. You get a flashing button every 10 seconds and you press it for "instant teamwork" What is this? In GW2 abilities interact with each other and other players in unique and meaningful ways. If my Ranger lays down a poison trap and starts to shoot enemies through it, the projectiles will apply poison. If my Weaver friend leaps to the fray in a fire AoE, they will be engulfed in a Fire Aura which damages mobs that attack, and if my Warrior stomps in a healing spring, they will splash healing waters around themselves to everyone. It's far more complex and interactive than "Oh, your teamwork button is flashing, here's a sound cue too, press the button"

Anyway, this wasn't a response to any one poster specifically, just in general about some of the points I've read in this thread. There's just a big difference between "this works, I guess" and "I like it this way" and "this is amaaazing game design, so genius and revolutionary" And I say that as someone who's been playing RPGs for two decades now and as someone who clearly loves things about all the games - but let's give credit where credit is due, and maybe learn from other games that figured out a better solution (e.g. to buff gameplay or off-the-gcd-inbetween-animations skills).

- This is in a large part due to the cooldown issue: In GW2, the Thief class has no cooldowns on their abilities, and are limited only by their resources... which results in the same braindead 'rotation' of picking the strongest skills and spamming those like in ESO. In other games, players need to keep track of several abilities to press them as soon as they're off cooldown, or abilities that need to pressed in a certain sequence, or trying to line up your burst windows by optimising how and when to use your impactful abilities which is engaging and rewarding. Not just... "reapply this whenever it runs out, but it's always available to cast don't worry".

- Regarding animations and the GCD: This is really the elephant in the room isn't it. And it all derives from the fact that the devs weren't able to code the game to have the player interrupt an action without the damage registering as complete, and decided to embrace it.

- Combos / Synergies are another example of the basic-ness of ESO combat design: Synergies are the most banal idea of teamwork ever. You get a flashing button every 10 seconds and you press it for "instant teamwork" What is this? In GW2 abilities interact with each other and other players in unique and meaningful ways. If my Ranger lays down a poison trap and starts to shoot enemies through it, the projectiles will apply poison. If my Weaver friend leaps to the fray in a fire AoE, they will be engulfed in a Fire Aura which damages mobs that attack, and if my Warrior stomps in a healing spring, they will splash healing waters around themselves to everyone. It's far more complex and interactive than "Oh, your teamwork button is flashing, here's a sound cue too, press the button"

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Perhaps they are talking about weaving and animation cancelling, a bug that stayed for so long that it became a "feature".