Why is it the general impression of people who don't play ESO is that the combat is bad?

Hurbster · October 2021

Now, first of all, this is not bashing anyone as I personally have never had a problem with the combat in ESO. My main is a Warden with 2H and bow and to me, the combat is fluid and responsive. I appreciate how playing a different class gives a different experience but honestly, I've had fun using everything from Nightblades to Templars to Dragon Knights. Now I happen to prefer the 2h/Bow playstyle but I have not found a playstyle I have not had fun with. Now PvP is another matter, but that is a technical problem that is purely up to ZoS to sort out. I have a reasonable PC and good internet.

With that caveat out of the way (sorry it's so long but I felt I needed to put some context in) one thing I have noticed o MMO forums, reddit, etc is that people are saying the combat is bad. I was watching a Taliesin and Evitel video about Evitel's experience with FF14 and one of the things she says is 'well ESOs combat is...(makes a vague stabbing motion with her hand)' and this seems to be a general consensus and I was wondering why (the second thing mentioned is generally the AH system but that is a discussion that has been played out to death here).

On MMO forums I read I hear things like:

"The combat is the only reason I don’t play ESO".
"Here’s me hoping that New World’s launch will make ZOS improve stuff on ESO, like animations, capes and the AH".
"If ESO could improve its combat system to not be absolutely trash it would kill most other MMOs with the rest of the content it offers".
"They fix the combat and add an AH to get rid of that awful trade guild (aka pay us to be here) system and I’ll consider playing the game again".

Those are literally from one topic on Massively about the Deadlands release date and I see these comments all the time.

Maybe it's because I played quite a bit of DCUO after I quit WoW (after Cataclysm - hated the rework) but animation cancelling has just become natural for me.

One other complaint I see is from people hating weapon swapping. Is it awkward using a controller? I just assigned a side mouse button to it.

I was wondering if anyone could give some ideas, maybe a newish player as I have been playing since 2014 and I genuinely do not have problems with the combat.

Narvuntien · October 2021

I think they like having a million abilities with cooldowns instead of just playing about with a limited set of skills they can spam.

I don't understand it but I think that is what they want in combat.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · October 2021

combat in new world is a dumbed down version of ESO PVP. and wow is all about timers with addons to tell you what to do and when to jump and gear power (latter has been broken for years). Only issue I can see in ESO is lag at times and animation cancelling - the latter means spamming + 1 skill every second which is awful gameplay.

TelvanniWizard · October 2021

Perhaps they are talking about weaving and animation cancelling, a bug that stayed for so long that it became a "feature".

GRXRG · October 2021

I like the eso combat more than any cooldown system.

But this kind of combat if not handle by insane good servers will result in a frustating lag experience like everyone experience in cyrodiil for years.

In a cooldown skill system like Guild Wars 2 you always see what ability did hit you and why you died, because it's 1 every X seconds.

In ESO after 4 years of playing the game and especially PvP sometimes I ask myself, how the [snip] did I die? How that thing did even hit me?

You see one executioner casted at you, you die and there were 5 instead, because the server is trash and register them on your hitbox all the same time, but in your screen you only see one.

If the game had insane servers to handle and load all those datas, this could be the best MMO with the best combat ever made, but unfortunately the servers are outdated and with the more patches we will get the worse will become.

When sometimes you find those "godly" players who can survive 5vs1 from players with 8k weapon damage and 20k pen, they have no secret build or power, they are just super close to the megaserver, they have close to 10 ping, and all your damage is desynced, it is showed in your screen, but doesn't reach their hitbox, just vanishes into thin air. Because even with 3-4k healing vigor ticks per seconds it's impossible to survive the burst and ulti dumps of 5 players with 8k wd and 20k pen.

And this was tested by me and guild mates.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · October 2021

Many people do not like the targeting, bar swapping, and animation canceling. It took me a few months to get used to it.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · October 2021

Most likely animation canceling, i know lot of people who dislike that including me, i do it because it so much more powerfull to throw all those small fireball every second, not because i like it

ixthUA · October 2021

In ESO DPS can be from very low to very high. Newbies tend to have very low DPS, due to lack of knowledge, which turns them away.
By default, damage is not displayed (must be turned on in options), ability cooldowns are not displayed (before required addons, now need to turn on in options), DPS is not displayed (requires addons). Without these 3 things players cannot improve their DPS and thus combat looks bad.

xgoku1 · October 2021

Mandatory animation canceling for good DPS

Suddwrath · October 2021

Because it is, especially for PvE.
1) You have a limited number of skills that can be used/put on the skill bar.
2) Classes feel very similar since they use many of the same weapon/guild/world skills (which takes away much of the flavor of the class)
3) Regardless of class, the rotation is generally: Apply DOTs -> Click Spammable Skill -> Reapply DOTS -> etc. (applying self buffs as needed)
4) The vast majority of content can be done without even having a healer in the group which devalues the role.
5) Due to the incredibly poor server performance combat often feels clunky and sluggish, not to mention the number of skills that are so bugged they often just don’t even work.
6) What was originally a bug is now deemed an essential feature to achieve high DPS (weaving/animation cancelling).
7) Tanking is mind numbing. There is not an AoE taunt, no threat/aggro gauge to maintain, DPS is incredibly low, and the rotation is very simple.

I played end game ESO PvE for years and thought the combat was great, but as soon as I started playing other MMOs I realized just how stale, boring, and clunky the combat actually is.

Hallothiel · October 2021

No idea. Find combat skills quite easy on console/controller. And as I have 18 characters I like to play around with different skills outside the ‘meta’ choice.

(What is it with requests for capes?! Why?)

Edaphon · October 2021

Well, they're not entirely wrong.

The combat system definitely is one of ESO's weakest points, it's very repetitive and boring.

Also, mandatory animation cancelling is kinda stupid.

Sylosi · October 2021

Some reasons the combat is considered bad:

1 - It mostly feels very floaty, clunky and lacks impact.

2 - Is supposedly based on aiming, but really the aiming is largely a joke, you look vaguely in the direction of your target and you will hit.

3 - The light attack weaving is just tedious for many people.

4 - The animation cancelling is absolutely low skill garbage, because firstly you generally have a massive window that you can cancel in, rather than a small window at the end of the animation. Secondly because you have that massive window you can often cancel nearly immediately, which means no meaningful skill animation for your opponent to react to, which is laughable. Literally the worst implementation of animation cancelling I've ever seen.

5 - The lack of variety, every class uses the same mechanics (stam, magicka, etc), has access to every weapon, every armour type, most skills are available to every class (world, guild, weapon, armour, alliance war, etc), which gets dull.

6 - The vast majority of the PvE content is so trivial it means the combat is trivial and sends people to sleep. I mean if I can solo a veteran dungeon as someone who only plays this game sporadically, am quite lazy about weaving in PvE, etc, that in itself tells you how laughable the content is and don't even start me on alleged "world bosses" most of which can be done in your sleep.

7 - Somewhat related to the above is healer and tank are basically surplus to requirements for much of the content, so the combat is busted in many peoples eyes. Also not helped by how high heals scale off basically the same stats you need for damage, why bother with healer most of the time, when you can take one heal skill on a DPS and survive fine with that. There is a reason games have a heal stat.

and so on...

Tandor · October 2021

Hallothiel wrote: »

No idea. Find combat skills quite easy on console/controller. And as I have 18 characters I like to play around with different skills outside the ‘meta’ choice.

(What is it with requests for capes?! Why?)

I can sort of understand that, I think a lot of it comes from the players of "super hero" games, but the one that gets me every time is the request to disable shoulder effects. I've no idea what that relates to, but I do freely admit to disabling head gear with most of my characters because it just looks silly. Maybe it's the same with shoulder gear, especially with heavy armour?

Elo106 · October 2021

I think since the combat they know is 30 skills or more with "long" cooldowns, the first thought they have when looking at ESO pvp is they have too little to do. "Only 5 skills".

Once they learn that you dont have cooldowns the next question usually is, so you just spam one skill etc

You really have to try it for a bit to appreciate the combat.

LittlePinkDot · October 2021

Hurbster wrote: »

Now, first of all, this is not bashing anyone as I personally have never had a problem with the combat in ESO. My main is a Warden with 2H and bow and to me, the combat is fluid and responsive. I appreciate how playing a different class gives a different experience but honestly, I've had fun using everything from Nightblades to Templars to Dragon Knights. Now I happen to prefer the 2h/Bow playstyle but I have not found a playstyle I have not had fun with. Now PvP is another matter, but that is a technical problem that is purely up to ZoS to sort out. I have a reasonable PC and good internet.

With that caveat out of the way (sorry it's so long but I felt I needed to put some context in) one thing I have noticed o MMO forums, reddit, etc is that people are saying the combat is bad. I was watching a Taliesin and Evitel video about Evitel's experience with FF14 and one of the things she says is 'well ESOs combat is...(makes a vague stabbing motion with her hand)' and this seems to be a general consensus and I was wondering why (the second thing mentioned is generally the AH system but that is a discussion that has been played out to death here).

On MMO forums I read I hear things like:

"The combat is the only reason I don’t play ESO".
"Here’s me hoping that New World’s launch will make ZOS improve stuff on ESO, like animations, capes and the AH".
"If ESO could improve its combat system to not be absolutely trash it would kill most other MMOs with the rest of the content it offers".
"They fix the combat and add an AH to get rid of that awful trade guild (aka pay us to be here) system and I’ll consider playing the game again".

Those are literally from one topic on Massively about the Deadlands release date and I see these comments all the time.

Maybe it's because I played quite a bit of DCUO after I quit WoW (after Cataclysm - hated the rework) but animation cancelling has just become natural for me.

One other complaint I see is from people hating weapon swapping. Is it awkward using a controller? I just assigned a side mouse button to it.

I was wondering if anyone could give some ideas, maybe a newish player as I have been playing since 2014 and I genuinely do not have problems with the combat.

I hate the trade guild thing too. I don't play very often, so when I come back from a break I've been kicked out of every guild and can no longer sell any loot I find.
I just trash perfectly good gear and use the gold find stars in the champion point system because I've got no other way to make gold.

As for the weapon swap with a controller. I'm on PS5 and I switched the buttons around so X weapon swaps, R3 is jump and left button on the D-pad is sneak.

With a controller the default weapon swap is left D-pad, but that means you have to take your thumb off the left stick that controls movement. So you have to stand still for a second in order to bar swap, you can't do it while moving at the same time.

ixthUA · October 2021

Sylosi wrote: »

7 - Somewhat related to the above is healer and tank are basically surplus to requirements for much of the content, so the combat is busted in many peoples eyes. Also not helped by how high heals scale off basically the same stats you need for damage, why bother with healer most of the time, when you can take one heal skill on a DPS and survive fine with that. There is a reason games have a heal stat.

Healer and tank will buff damage a lot, which is useful in vet dungeons. Of course you can take 4 DDs, but then many bosses will keep 1-shooting whoever they are targeting and team will have to survive on self-heals.

Iccotak · October 2021

Narvuntien wrote: »

I think they like having a million abilities with cooldowns instead of just playing about with a limited set of skills they can spam.

I don't understand it but I think that is what they want in combat.

It’s not that for most people who are unhappy with combat.

It’s that it doesn’t feel like an Elder Scrolls game. It feels like a tab target that was refitted into an action combat - which is exactly the case in ESO.

——————
Also combat in Overland is very boring as enemies are too slow, do little damage, and have very few mechanics.

It’s balanced for beginners and nothing in overland except group areas is actually a threat to them.

All of my friends who left did not like how easy combat was even when fighting bosses. That’s a problem when such a huge amount of the game is questing and leveling.

Dungeons are top notch though - the gameplay of the group content is what honestly kept me in the game.

Sluggy · October 2021

I've always likened it to playing an instrument. Starting out, most people will just be bad at it. They won't have an intuitive understanding of what will happen when they press a button or how to smoothly perform a series of actions without thinking. As they practice and become more familiar over time it becomes second nature and eventually they can begin to show their true creativity as they no longer have to think about their actions before performing them. This is the point at which playing the game can become fun - however, most people will give up long before this point. It's very similar t fighting games in that regard. Very few people will ever play long enough to master any aspect of it and begin to play from intuition.

However, on big blemish on this analogy is as a few have mentioned above: Lag, really ruins it for everyone but much moreso for experienced players. Beginner probably won't even notice except in the worst of cases but long-time players will become very sensitive to even small changes in responsiveness. There's a reason most hardcore fighting game players never hold tournaments online and would prefer to literally travel across countries and even around the world to play someone face-to-face.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · October 2021

I don't persay dislike it, but here's my take:
- it's a bit floaty
- Some skills don't feel like they have a solid impact
- There are misfires or medium attacks that pop up
- Light attack weaving feels strange on bows (Could be nice to tweak and make unique bow skills)

It's not really an issue for me. I'd say performance is in raiding/pvp contexts as it affects combat, obviously.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · October 2021

xgoku1 wrote: »

Mandatory animation canceling for good DPS

Incorrect. average dps would be relatively the same for all if there was no animation cancelling, and we would not need to be mindlessly spamming every half seconds - which is not skill.

Vaoh · October 2021

Suddwrath wrote: »

Because it is, especially for PvE.
1) You have a limited number of skills that can be used/put on the skill bar.
2) Classes feel very similar since they use many of the same weapon/guild/world skills (which takes away much of the flavor of the class)
3) Regardless of class, the rotation is generally: Apply DOTs -> Click Spammable Skill -> Reapply DOTS -> etc. (applying self buffs as needed)
4) The vast majority of content can be done without even having a healer in the group which devalues the role.
5) Due to the incredibly poor server performance combat often feels clunky and sluggish, not to mention the number of skills that are so bugged they often just don’t even work.
6) What was originally a bug is now deemed an essential feature to achieve high DPS (weaving/animation cancelling).
7) Tanking is mind numbing. There is not an AoE taunt, no threat/aggro gauge to maintain, DPS is incredibly low, and the rotation is very simple.

I played end game ESO PvE for years and thought the combat was great, but as soon as I started playing other MMOs I realized just how stale, boring, and clunky the combat actually is.

Exactly this ^

NoxiousBlight · October 2021

I mean I love ESO but two things about the combat annoy me:

-LA weaving. I can do it fine. I can get huge DPS numbers. I just wish I didn’t have to do it.

-I loathe how short buffs are. It feels a bit like trying to juggle too many plates in the air at the same time. If all buff skills lasted 45-60 seconds I think it would feel a LOT better. Rather than having a few DPS attacks then constantly having to rebuff, you could get several rotations out before you have to reapply them and it would feel good. I find the short buffs especially irritating in PvP.

Sluggy · October 2021

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Mandatory animation canceling for good DPS

Incorrect. average dps would be relatively the same for all if there was no animation cancelling, and we would not need to be mindlessly spamming every half seconds - which is not skill.

So this argument always confuses me, There are two points that detractors make. They either say it's A ) skill-less, in which case, why can't everyone do it. Or B ) requires too much skill that is impossible for most humans - to which I say, most people can play chopsticks and twinkle twinkle little star on the piano. So it can't be that hard.

It sits right in that happy middle ground where it should be. Relatively easy to learn with just enough of a challenge to keep it interesting. Right where it should be. An no - it's NOT a bug. It's an intended part of the game.

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO · October 2021

Because the ramp into each class and weapon line individually is really boring to the point of dismay.. its only when you build up a rotation including both bars does it become deep enough to be interesting.

Combined with the ability timing for action mmos / eso is completely alien to cooldown based players. You have to slow down then speed up again in eso to get the min max, and if you screw it up you feel like you're pressing buttons without the abilities firing.

The combination mades the combat "bad" and clunky until you accidently stumble upon it. I had to restart the game 2 or 3 times before i found it. Its made worse by the fact that he game difficulty is so easy, so even when you're playing badly you still win, and you don't think you're playing bad, but rather the game is broken. If the game was harder you might get the feedback to try something different earlier on...

Blinx · October 2021

maybe because it is bad, combat based around what was a bug, is kind of facepalm country, I play for story, certainly not for "engaging combat"

etchedpixels · October 2021

Because it is clunky and laggy and I die more in combat from server lag and game glitches than anything else ?

Play Skyrim and look at the sneak, the bow sniping and the lack of things firing through walls, note how blocking is instant, and Skyrim is *old* tech now... even Genshin Impact lets people climb trees.

|MMOs do pose some other challenges but that side of the ESO combat is really really clunky, old fashioned and positively comical compared to modern games. The skill, sets and techniques side of it is IMHO really good. If you sample a few of the other games you'll see how much the technology has moved on in visuals, in interaction, in gameplay and particularly in stability and performance. The ESO servers are also down regularly for maintenance and fall over now and then for hours with hardware fails.

Having played some other MMO and MMOish stuiff on the other hand
- ESO has a storyline that isn't like "my first adventure story book"
- ESO has voice acting and writing that isn't full of typos and doesn't read like a kids school essay
- ESO doesn't install malware level and exploitable "anti-cheat" that talks back to sites in China
- ESO has a game world and lore that are fairly cohesive and hasn't been rewritten repeatedly
- ESO has trading and crafting mechanics that work well
- ESO has passable housing

So whilst ESO is my MMO of choice it sure isn't for the combat system, graphics or for login times. Games like BDO are way way ahead on that front - they just (to me at least) aren't very good for a long list of other reasons.

Nisekev · October 2021

ESO combat is pretty bad.

Kiralyn2000 · October 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

Play Skyrim and look at the sneak, the bow sniping and the lack of things firing through walls, note how blocking is instant, and Skyrim is *old* tech now... even Genshin Impact lets people climb trees.

Different engine is different.

(and isn't Genshin - besides being 'Breath of the Wild with the serial # filed off' - a single-player game unless you gather a small group for dungeons or events? Either way, it's not an MMO.)

Also, I suspect that the people complaining about ESO combat ("floaty" "no impact" etc) also think Skyrim's is terrible. Because they're comparing to things like Dark Souls.

edit: and ESO is "old tech" too. It's not like it was developed recently. And retrofitting an MMO engine to do wildly different things, isn't particularly easy or cheap.

Cloudtrader · October 2021

In my opinion, the worst thing about ESO combat is the animation canceling, which is horrible. Especially if you're used to a cool-down plus auto-attack system. Maybe that's why people don't like ESO combat.

Faulgor · October 2021

I don't think it's based on even second-glance things some people are mentioning here, like weaving and limited skill bars.

It just looks and feels terrible. Janky, floaty, not impactful. Don't even have to play yourself to have that impression.