xeNNNNN wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'd be down for a PVE version of those zones as long as they don't duplicate any of the original rewards.

That's right. No AP, no Tel var, no achievements, no skyshards, no fish, no IC monster Helms, no IC leads, no Midyear Mayhem Event tickets, nothing. If you want the rewards from the PVP zones, you need to play the zone as intended with the risk of PVP.

Give the PVE versions their own unique rewards, sure! As long as they aren't an excuse for players who want the rewards of PVP zones but don't want to play with the intended risk of PVP.

Ehhhh I can agree with AP, Tel var and event tickets because they are pvp things.

But Skyshards, fish, monster helms (that arent even that good and weren't even released with it) and leads? Come on man, that's a bit much. There would be no point in anyone going there if you took all of that because thats the meat of it on the PvE side of things. The story takes not even 2 hours at best and thats purely because you have to be a bit more carful running around thats all.

You would litterally gut the entire zone and remove the entire point of anyone wanting a PvE version.

I will also say that (as a PvPer) IC is toxic as hell, its either zergs or gankblades. Endless amounts of gankblades or snipers sitting in their spawn towers in Arena never moving. Its not even worth going down there from a pvp stand point let alone a PvE one.

Most of them are grand overlords bored with overland who want to farm non-pvpers too.

Well, thanks for immediately proving my point that for some players, these requests really are about getting the rewards ZOS put in PVP zones without the intended risk of PVP.

I mean, ZOS didn't forget that getting 4 skyshards in Cyrodiil requires capturing at least 2 enemy keeps then rushing through the gates to grab them while the enemy tries to protect their scroll. ZOS didn't forget that skyshards are in delves where PVPers get their AP buff. Or that skyshards are in towns, where PVPers fight for points and transit control. It's almost like ZOS intended for players to run the risk of PVP when getting Skyshards in a PVP-enabled zone.

ZOS didn't forget that there were enemy players around when they put fishing holes near objectives. The Ocean fishing holes are particularly limited, and very close to AD and EP objectives. So even the fish aren't safe. IC is even more obvious - the fish are in the District, near the flags, exactly where ZOS intended players to battle for control for the Tel Var boost.

Leads? Monster Helms? You know, the fact that ZOS added these in relatively recently should maybe be a clue that ZOS knows that many players don't care for mixed PVE/PVP...and did it anyway. They fully intended for players to have the risk of PVP if they want those items.

No, it's not too much. I'm sorry, but it's you who want to gut the old zones of their original intention just so players can get the rewards with no risk of PVP.

At least I'm suggesting that you get new unique rewards for doing the new PVE-only content. Hand out new leads for doing the PVE-only world boss rotation in PVE-only IC! Just don't pretend we should get the PVP IC leads when we didn't actually play in PVP IC, as was intended for those leads. Get all new skyshards from PVE-only Cyrodiil! Just don't pretend we earned the same skyshards when we had zero risk of running into an enemy player in a delve or never dashed between the gates our alliance opened, hoping not to get ganked at the skyshard. It's not at all comparable. And you know it isn't, because the difference - the threat of PVP - is exactly what players want to avoid when they ask ZOS to give them the same rewards with no risk.


As completely separate zones with unique rewards, so people can enjoy a PVP-free exploration and story experience in Cyrodiil and IC? I'm totally down for it. I'd go there for the new skyshards, fish, etc.

As an excuse for players to get the rewards they want while skipping the risk of PVP that's been intended for IC and Cyro since they were launched? No, absolutely not.

If you want the rewards of PVE content, you would expect to play it as intended. Why would you remove all risk of PVP, and then expect to earn the same rewards when you are no longer playing with the intended risk? The way I see it, it's just an excuse asking for desired rewards while trying to avoid the unwanted (but fully intended) risk.

1) This rant was unnecessary.
2) I refer you to my response to Kwoung and Indigogo
[snip]

Skyshards, leads, bosses. If the only content surrounding pvp is skyshards, fishing and monster helms from bosses then PvP has a much bigger problem than just a bunch of people on the forum asking for access to things they want without PvP.

Listen Im a PvPer, I have 3 PvE characters and all my others are PvP. I spend waaaay to much gold and resources on my builds and changing them constantly. For me the true draw for PvP is the builds and the fights and pushing myself to improve and just generally having fun.

I want new Battlegrounds maps, I want new mechanics in cyrodil, I want Zenimax to stop skimping on paying for higher tier servers so we can have good performance. I want separate balance for PvP. I Want whats best for PvP.

Since its inception IC has just been completely aids, has there sometimes been fun fights? Yeah on the rare occasion. The risk? Meh. When Hakejo was a good source of income and a primary way to make money then sure, but now? There are so many other ways to make money that its not even worth going in there anymore. The helms? the leads? Fishing?!

Like seriously again, if these are the things that drive IC to be active or fun, then there is a much bigger problem with PvP and IC in general than just the threat of losing risk from people wanting something that doesn't really impact the fun you can have in IC. Me and my friend sometimes just go down there to fight people, we dont really go there to farm or anything.

The most anyone can convince me of is that people go down there to show people what getting ganked means or how to get frustrated by the lack of balance and the intense amount of lag.

Before I start, I'd like to refer you back to your own words to me:

xeNNNNN wrote: »

You would litterally gut the entire zone and remove the entire point of anyone wanting a PvE version.

If I came off as crass and unnecessary by accusing you of gutting zones, I'm sorry. Perhaps we would both benefit from taking a less accusatory tone.


Beyond that, I read your response to the others and found it much more agreeable. I can understand you thinking about how it's not fun for certain players to be in PVP. It's certainly true that lots of players sincerely dislike PVP and would love to avoid it while still getting all the rewards they want (whatever those rewards are that they want - the OP wants those skyshards.)

That's not the approach I take when looking at this question of PVE-only versions, because rewards aren't gated behind certain content to make the content fun. The rewards exist as both reward for the players who'd do it anyway and as a draw to entice players in who will only do it for rewards. We see how that works every Midyear Mayhem when players who otherwise hate PVP queue up for Cyro/IC in exchange for sufficiently desired rewards - ZOS doesn't care if they have fun getting ganked in IC; ZOS knows they don't have fun at all yet still keeps putting event tickets in IC because they know that players will either go there for rewards or buy tickets to avoid it. Skyshards aren't that different. ZOS put them in Cyrodiil knowing that PVPers will get them, and PVE-only players will either suck it up and go get them, or do without (or now, buy them.)

I take a different approach: if we want the rewards gated behind certain content, we need to do the content as intended. Fun doesn't really factor in - I'd have a lot more fun if I could buy perfected trial gear in a guild store, but that wouldn't be playing the content as intended.

You can think me petty if you like, but I remain convinced that ZOS should not hand out the same skyshards they intend to be obtained with the risk of PVP (capturing keeps, town objectives, delves with AP buffs, sewers and districts, etc.) to players who are playing PVE-only without that intended risk.

By all means, PVE-Cyro/IC should exist for players who want to explore and experience the story without PVP. But the new zones need their own unique rewards, including skyshards, as befits their completely different gameplay parameters from the original zones.

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay! I hope you have a good day.

[edited to remove quote]

Just my two cents worth, I go into Cyrodiil mainly for AP for transmute stones, and I've gathered skyshards, run quests, cleared some delves. My main goal is not PvP but avoiding PvP. It's pretty easy to get some sneak gear that will allow you to avoid other players. I actually feel a great sense of accomplishment going about my business while not being seen by enemies. But sometimes I get tired of repairing walls and run to a keep that's under attack and hope I get some extra AP for being there. Sometimes I actually join the fight. I usually die, but every once in a while, I manage to find the right position and kill a few enemies before I die. So I'm a PvE player that would vote against a PvE Cyrodill. Sometimes being forced to do things you might not do otherwise is not only educational but turns out to be more fun that you would imagine.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Skyshards aren't that different. ZOS put them in Cyrodiil knowing that PVPers will get them, and PVE-only players will either suck it up and go get them, or do without (or now, buy them.)

Actually, I don't think you can buy Cyrodiil's skyshards-- or any other zone's skyshards-- unless you've already collected all of them on one of your other characters, unless that's been changed.

Although I don't think PvE-only versions of Cyrodiil and Imperial City are necessary, I think that any hypothetical "Cyrodiil v2" or "Imperial City v2" zones should have separate rewards, distinct from the original zones, similar to the way versions 1 and 2 of a group dungeon have their own separate skill points.

You're correct. I said "PVE-only players" but that's frequently a misnomer.

Few players are truly PVE-only on principle when that means missing out on a reward they really want. Most players who dislike PVP but who really want the skyshards or the skill lines will go into Cyro/IC for a minimal time to get them and then get out. And that's fine! They don't have to stick around if they don't enjoy it, they just have to play the content as intended to get what they want.

Because skyshards/skill line sales require players to have gathered or maxed out the line once, ZOS' sales come from players who aren't truly PVE-only to the point that they avoid Cyro/IC entirely. Truly PVE-only players just do without.

The sales come from players who've already PVPed enough to gather the Cyro/IC skyshards once. Or who've PVPed enough to max out the skill lines. These players have already done it once, but they don't enjoy it, and they'd rather pay than go back for skyshards/skill lines on their alt(s).

ZOS uses events to push players to do various content for rewards for a brief time. Whether players enjoy the content is somewhat besides the point. Each player can do the content for rewards. Or they can avoid content they dislike and miss out on rewards. Or they can buy event tickets to make up for that reward while avoiding the content.

Skyshards aren't that different. Players who are truly PVE-only will miss out because they don't play the content, much like how players who avoid dungeons and trials can't get the skill points from the content. Players who dislike PVP but who are willing to do it have two options: suck it up long enough to get the skyshards gated behind PVP or don't do content they hate but miss out on the skyshards. Or - and here's the profitable option for ZOS - suck it up long enough to do it once, and then pay ZOS so they never have to come back on an alt when they want those skyshards.


Side note: I'd be curious to know how many people actually buy the Cyro/IC skyshards. Mostly because it's not like 60 skyshards/20 skill points is going to break a truly PVE-only player's character by the time they've exhausted their PVE-only options. For comparison, each base game alliance has 86 skyshards. There are 276 PVE-only Skyshards in the base game alone. I'm not sure that enough players even need the Cyro/IC skyshards enough to justify buying them on alts.

xeNNNNN wrote: »

You can think me petty if you like, but I remain convinced that ZOS should not hand out the same skyshards they intend to be obtained with the risk of PVP (capturing keeps, town objectives, delves with AP buffs, sewers and districts, etc.) to players who are playing PVE-only without that intended risk.

By all means, PVE-Cyro/IC should exist for players who want to explore and experience the story without PVP. But the new zones need their own unique rewards, including skyshards, as befits their completely different gameplay parameters from the original zones.

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay! I hope you have a good day.

I remember when you had to run to the sewer gates to get into IC before you could directly port there. It made the trip to IC all the more meaningful and I would make sure I got what I needed whenever I went there.

As a matter of fact that is where I met the most people/guilds, because players on the same faction were more willing to group together due to safety in numbers. In the groups I joined I could get my telvar and pvp, and the pve'rs could get their collectables and there was a connection with the player base.

Its a shame things are not like that anymore. Those players stopped going to IC and now just buy the sky shards in the crownstore but it was a perfect model of how players could get their toes wet in pvp.

However when it comes to Cyrodiil the objectives are way too far apart for pvp groups/players to include pve players, and its easy for pve players to remain alienated from any form of pvp.

Bottom I think if anything they should add more pve objectives to IC, and not another 5min daily quest.

JJOtterBear wrote: »

So if we can have vet overland, lets also have a PvE Cyrodiil/Imperial City with improved quests, and improved scenery, for those of us that abhor PvP. it literally does no harm to anyone to have this.

sorry, but NO!
no fetching ways. PVPers are the most deprived community in ESO getting nothing, really nothing for many years.
I play PVE solo most of time, but i still hope PVP will get tournament arenas (preventing too smart players to disrupt AvA tournaments solely arranged and conducted by the Community), 1v1 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 arenas, Alliance tournaments (with unique mounts/costumes prizes) arranged and streamed by ZOS (just check for EVE Online Alliance Tournament videos to get very the idea!).
If you want the fancy PVP stuff, then fight for it. Don't be a chicken. Git gud!

@JJOtterBear no offense, your post is a troll's one. Please, stop promoting a cowardice. PVP is already so inferior in ESO.
getting rid of PVP in ESO completely means surrendering to the New World. Or surrendering nowadays is a new normal?

VaranisArano wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'd be down for a PVE version of those zones as long as they don't duplicate any of the original rewards.

That's right. No AP, no Tel var, no achievements, no skyshards, no fish, no IC monster Helms, no IC leads, no Midyear Mayhem Event tickets, nothing. If you want the rewards from the PVP zones, you need to play the zone as intended with the risk of PVP.

Give the PVE versions their own unique rewards, sure! As long as they aren't an excuse for players who want the rewards of PVP zones but don't want to play with the intended risk of PVP.

Ehhhh I can agree with AP, Tel var and event tickets because they are pvp things.

But Skyshards, fish, monster helms (that arent even that good and weren't even released with it) and leads? Come on man, that's a bit much. There would be no point in anyone going there if you took all of that because thats the meat of it on the PvE side of things. The story takes not even 2 hours at best and thats purely because you have to be a bit more carful running around thats all.

You would litterally gut the entire zone and remove the entire point of anyone wanting a PvE version.

I will also say that (as a PvPer) IC is toxic as hell, its either zergs or gankblades. Endless amounts of gankblades or snipers sitting in their spawn towers in Arena never moving. Its not even worth going down there from a pvp stand point let alone a PvE one.

Most of them are grand overlords bored with overland who want to farm non-pvpers too.

Well, thanks for immediately proving my point that for some players, these requests really are about getting the rewards ZOS put in PVP zones without the intended risk of PVP.

I mean, ZOS didn't forget that getting 4 skyshards in Cyrodiil requires capturing at least 2 enemy keeps then rushing through the gates to grab them while the enemy tries to protect their scroll. ZOS didn't forget that skyshards are in delves where PVPers get their AP buff. Or that skyshards are in towns, where PVPers fight for points and transit control. It's almost like ZOS intended for players to run the risk of PVP when getting Skyshards in a PVP-enabled zone.

ZOS didn't forget that there were enemy players around when they put fishing holes near objectives. The Ocean fishing holes are particularly limited, and very close to AD and EP objectives. So even the fish aren't safe. IC is even more obvious - the fish are in the District, near the flags, exactly where ZOS intended players to battle for control for the Tel Var boost.

Leads? Monster Helms? You know, the fact that ZOS added these in relatively recently should maybe be a clue that ZOS knows that many players don't care for mixed PVE/PVP...and did it anyway. They fully intended for players to have the risk of PVP if they want those items.

No, it's not too much. I'm sorry, but it's you who want to gut the old zones of their original intention just so players can get the rewards with no risk of PVP.

At least I'm suggesting that you get new unique rewards for doing the new PVE-only content. Hand out new leads for doing the PVE-only world boss rotation in PVE-only IC! Just don't pretend we should get the PVP IC leads when we didn't actually play in PVP IC, as was intended for those leads. Get all new skyshards from PVE-only Cyrodiil! Just don't pretend we earned the same skyshards when we had zero risk of running into an enemy player in a delve or never dashed between the gates our alliance opened, hoping not to get ganked at the skyshard. It's not at all comparable. And you know it isn't, because the difference - the threat of PVP - is exactly what players want to avoid when they ask ZOS to give them the same rewards with no risk.


As completely separate zones with unique rewards, so people can enjoy a PVP-free exploration and story experience in Cyrodiil and IC? I'm totally down for it. I'd go there for the new skyshards, fish, etc.

As an excuse for players to get the rewards they want while skipping the risk of PVP that's been intended for IC and Cyro since they were launched? No, absolutely not.

If you want the rewards of PVE content, you would expect to play it as intended. Why would you remove all risk of PVP, and then expect to earn the same rewards when you are no longer playing with the intended risk? The way I see it, it's just an excuse asking for desired rewards while trying to avoid the unwanted (but fully intended) risk.

1) This rant was unnecessary.
2) I refer you to my response to Kwoung and Indigogo
[snip]

Skyshards, leads, bosses. If the only content surrounding pvp is skyshards, fishing and monster helms from bosses then PvP has a much bigger problem than just a bunch of people on the forum asking for access to things they want without PvP.

Listen Im a PvPer, I have 3 PvE characters and all my others are PvP. I spend waaaay to much gold and resources on my builds and changing them constantly. For me the true draw for PvP is the builds and the fights and pushing myself to improve and just generally having fun.

I want new Battlegrounds maps, I want new mechanics in cyrodil, I want Zenimax to stop skimping on paying for higher tier servers so we can have good performance. I want separate balance for PvP. I Want whats best for PvP.

Since its inception IC has just been completely aids, has there sometimes been fun fights? Yeah on the rare occasion. The risk? Meh. When Hakejo was a good source of income and a primary way to make money then sure, but now? There are so many other ways to make money that its not even worth going in there anymore. The helms? the leads? Fishing?!

Like seriously again, if these are the things that drive IC to be active or fun, then there is a much bigger problem with PvP and IC in general than just the threat of losing risk from people wanting something that doesn't really impact the fun you can have in IC. Me and my friend sometimes just go down there to fight people, we dont really go there to farm or anything.

The most anyone can convince me of is that people go down there to show people what getting ganked means or how to get frustrated by the lack of balance and the intense amount of lag.

Before I start, I'd like to refer you back to your own words to me:

xeNNNNN wrote: »

You would litterally gut the entire zone and remove the entire point of anyone wanting a PvE version.

If I came off as crass and unnecessary by accusing you of gutting zones, I'm sorry. Perhaps we would both benefit from taking a less accusatory tone.

Beyond that, I read your response to the others and found it much more agreeable. I can understand you thinking about how it's not fun for certain players to be in PVP. It's certainly true that lots of players sincerely dislike PVP and would love to avoid it while still getting all the rewards they want (whatever those rewards are that they want - the OP wants those skyshards.)

That's not the approach I take when looking at this question of PVE-only versions, because rewards aren't gated behind certain content to make the content fun. The rewards exist as both reward for the players who'd do it anyway and as a draw to entice players in who will only do it for rewards. We see how that works every Midyear Mayhem when players who otherwise hate PVP queue up for Cyro/IC in exchange for sufficiently desired rewards - ZOS doesn't care if they have fun getting ganked in IC; ZOS knows they don't have fun at all yet still keeps putting event tickets in IC because they know that players will either go there for rewards or buy tickets to avoid it. Skyshards aren't that different. ZOS put them in Cyrodiil knowing that PVPers will get them, and PVE-only players will either suck it up and go get them, or do without (or now, buy them.)

I take a different approach: if we want the rewards gated behind certain content, we need to do the content as intended. Fun doesn't really factor in - I'd have a lot more fun if I could buy perfected trial gear in a guild store, but that wouldn't be playing the content as intended.

You can think me petty if you like, but I remain convinced that ZOS should not hand out the same skyshards they intend to be obtained with the risk of PVP (capturing keeps, town objectives, delves with AP buffs, sewers and districts, etc.) to players who are playing PVE-only without that intended risk.

By all means, PVE-Cyro/IC should exist for players who want to explore and experience the story without PVP. But the new zones need their own unique rewards, including skyshards, as befits their completely different gameplay parameters from the original zones.

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree, and that's okay! I hope you have a good day.

Just as a clarification, the difference in the way we both said "gut" to each other is how we said it.

I said "You would gut" not as accusatory but rather simply as what the action would cause as a result. At the time however, I did not see your idea for a PvE only version. Perhaps I misread or didn't see it, I find myself on these forums rather late at night for some reason often or not.

VaranisArano wrote: »

No, it's not too much. I'm sorry, but it's you who want to gut the old zones of their original intention just so players can get the rewards with no risk of PVP.

I said "would" not as a definite, but a simple cause and effect. However friend, you took it much more personally and made a direct accusation and assumption all in one. So while I understand your belief that you were simply responding in kind
(which is my assumption), it simply wasn't necessary. Just a misinterpretation of intent and I think its best just to leave it at that.

---

As for everything else you have said, now that I understand the full concept you're talking about I can agree with it, but I still think you are wrong. Not because I think its a bad idea or wouldn't work, but simply because I have no faith that ZoS will dedicate that much effort into creating what will probably be for all intensive purposes a carbon copy of IC and Cyrodil just without PvP. We can say all we want how we think it should turn out, but I think we both know on our own experience that it simply wont work out that way and never does.

Maybe and this is a maybe, they might when they finally end the alliance war from a lore and story perspective they might consider it but I really can't see them doing it as their development roadmap seems to lead in only one direction; Forward and unless they are willing to hire way more people to add the whole thing, both of them so they can also do their Dungeons, Chapter, Dungeons, DLC region plan each year. I just can't see it.

This is why I am simply not willing to defend a part of PvP that I consider to be toxic as hell because its very nature creates a kind of pvp environment that only exists to frustrate people. Not only do I hate the place as a PvPer, but I just can't see them making something entirely separate for PvErs either. Even I cannot be bothered to go in there for fishing and skyshards on new characters and such. Its just boring, tedious and tiresome. In the end I just want the focus of PvP to be the builds, the campaigns (I want them to matter and engage people) & fight, not the fluff.

I do not think you are truly petty either, but it does come across like that because the things you do not want to change are for all intensive purposes are not PvP content it's simply PvE content that resides in a pvp zone, it was designed originally to create a interesting play space for PvPers and PvErs (emphasis on the and PvErs) but it didn't really shake out like that at all. It just turned into a griefing zone for gankblades to test their builds on unsuspecting new players or repeatedly ganking the same person over and over for laughs and to just let zergs make money easily or zerg small scalers because the population never balances out. Now if it worked differently (all of) say for example with skyshards they worked different from another skyshard in a non-pvp zone, like you needed to fight someone near it and kill them near it in order for you to get access to it or something as a reward of PvPing near it then I could understand the argument more because there would be pvp in it and perhaps the pvp shards were unique in other ways.

This is not directed at you; I also dislike the direction this thread has taken with certain posts because it says a lot about the state of the community too as a result of frankly inaction on ZoS's part, splitting people up into camps going well beyond the purpose of a differential;
One side complaining about PvErs as if they have some sort of privilege over basic things like skyshards but then PvPers here doing the same thing in an attempt to protect "skyshards" in pvp zones.

Its all just silly, I feel like the PvP community is way too crappy to the PvE Community and vice versa.

Split the balance fully, Give PvPers real content, maps, proper changes to cyrodil that make the campaign worth winning as well outside of the top 200 or whatever it is (I stopped paying attention a while ago) and give us competitive queues for BGs with tangible rewards and more and the PvP community suddenly wouldn't give an F about this matter.

I feel like we're only this way because we've been hung out to dry for so long that we're just looking at our gameplay and content and just simply being frustrated then taking it out on others over small things like this which on a whole can be viewed as a petty matter. All because we feel like we'll lose content and have nothing to replace it. Which is sadly, true. The risk of PvP for me has always been primarily dying to another player while fighting them, not while trying to gather some interactive object that anyone can pick up.

The PvE community could also stand to be a little more understanding on this matter as well considering they get all the fanfare, content and cool stuff. What did we get recently? an emote? lel We're paying customers too, our community size shouldn't invalidate the fact we pay for the game as well.

[edited to remove quote]