Suggestion for more iconic Sorcerer, Warden class skills

GoldenGirl · October 2021

To me, the Sorcerer is the quintessential elemental spellslinger... hurling fire, ice or lightning at enemies. Lightning? Check! Fire and ice... well, only if you have a staff of that type. But Dark Magic and Daedric summoning seem to be slanted more toward a darker type spellcaster and I'm a GOOD sorcerer! (Besides, I really, really want an ice mage - tall, pale, with long white hair and ice blue eyes, elegant and aloof...)

I know DK's have fire but IIRC it's dragon breath or lava spells so Sorcerer could still have straight fireball/fireblast/scorch type spells? Or just change Dark Magic to "Arcane" spells instead. I know.. small, insignificant change to many but this is an RPG and alignment is a big part of roleplay, right?

As for Warden, I can see where ice would work but I would like to see ice moved to the sorcerer skills (again, ice mage!) and wardens to have an earth- or air-based skill instead.. something like DK's Stonefist (but without the molten aspect) or Wind Shear for direct damage, Mire/Quicksand or North Winds for slowing and maybe a DOT, Earth Vortex or Cyclone for an AOE, Petrify or Blast for a stun, and Stoneskin or Wind Ward for a shield.

Anyone else have any little nagging things, specifically regarding class or spells/skills that you would love to see addressed?

I_killed_Vivec · October 2021

No such thing as a GOOD sorcerer, unless you mean a dead one

But what you are really asking for is an end to class distinction. Now whether that's a bad thing is another debate, but if Sorcs have DK's fire abilities, and Warden's have DK's stonefist, then you're stealing from DK class skills - and what are you giving DKs back?

(And remember, DKs were already plundered for wardens - shimmering shield stole from wings)

GoldenGirl · October 2021

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

if Sorcs have DK's fire abilities, and Warden's have DK's stonefist, then you're stealing from DK class skills - and what are you giving DKs back?

(And remember, DKs were already plundered for wardens - shimmering shield stole from wings)

My DK is only level 18 so I didn't know about shimmering shield. And I also know my suggestions overlapped DK.. that's why I said have fire on sorc OR just change Dark Magic to Arcane.

As far as stealing Stonefist for the Warden, it was merely a suggestion for an earth damage spell, "something like DK's Stonefist (but without the molten aspect)", not that I wanted DKs to lose Stonefist. I was trying to avoid the whole "throw an idea out there but give no thought to how it would be implemented".

kaushad · October 2021

In TES, what you're describing is destruction expert and in some contexts, a battlemage. Sorcerers have previously been described as follows:

"Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos."

I'd say that daedra summoning is the most iconic "sorcerer's" skill.

Artim_X · October 2021

I disagree with your entire post. It isn't simply a

small, insignificant change to many

it's the type of change that would upset many players who are quite content with their skills.

A better discussion would be to buff the elemental identities of wardens and dragonknights so that they too could also dedicate their playstyle to a single element while still being effective in a variety of content. I'm not up to date with the buffs given to these classes so I'm not sure if they're at that point yet.

ESO_Nightingale · October 2021

Artim_X wrote: »

I disagree with your entire post. It isn't simply a

small, insignificant change to many

it's the type of change that would upset many players who are quite content with their skills.

A better discussion would be to buff the elemental identities of wardens and dragonknights so that they too could also dedicate their playstyle to a single element while still being effective in a variety of content. I'm not up to date with the buffs given to these classes so I'm not sure if they're at that point yet.

wardens are still incredibly underdeveloped when it comes to frost damage. arctic blast still isn't a viable damage skill since it's a jack of all trades skill for, at this point, seemingly no reason. we have the passives in place for it, but we just lack skills. Frost Shalks would help a lot, and an arctic blast rework would as well, provided a removal of the heal from the morph (while buffing 1 of the green balance self burst heal options), making the stun offensive instead of defensive and then heavily increasing the dps capabilities.

GoldenGirl · October 2021

Okay, first off I guess I shouldn't post... 1- when tired and hungover after a party, and 2- without additional research...

kaushad wrote: »

In TES, what you're describing is destruction expert and in some contexts, a battlemage. Sorcerers have previously been described as follows:

"Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos."

I'd say that daedra summoning is the most iconic "sorcerer's" skill.

I guess I was thinking about destruction spells overall and my preferences specifically, but I like that description! It definitely gives more depth to a character than I had previously considered. Where is that description from?

Artim_X wrote: »

I disagree with your entire post. It isn't simply a

small, insignificant change to many

it's the type of change that would upset many players who are quite content with their skills.

A better discussion would be to buff the elemental identities of wardens and dragonknights so that they too could also dedicate their playstyle to a single element while still being effective in a variety of content. I'm not up to date with the buffs given to these classes so I'm not sure if they're at that point yet.

What I wrote was poorly worded, sorry.. I meant specifically that the change of skill line name from "Dark Magic" to "Arcane" might be considered an insignificant change. Although with what kaushad posted above, Dark Magic does fit with that description of Sorcerer. And I do like your idea of fleshing out the elemental identities of wardens and dragonknights.

And I guess I'll just have to give up on my idea of a frost mage. :sigh:

Adremal · October 2021

GoldenGirl wrote: »

To me, the Sorcerer is the quintessential elemental spellslinger... hurling fire, ice or lightning at enemies. Lightning? Check! Fire and ice... well, only if you have a staff of that type. But Dark Magic and Daedric summoning seem to be slanted more toward a darker type spellcaster and I'm a GOOD sorcerer! (Besides, I really, really want an ice mage - tall, pale, with long white hair and ice blue eyes, elegant and aloof...)

I know DK's have fire but IIRC it's dragon breath or lava spells so Sorcerer could still have straight fireball/fireblast/scorch type spells? Or just change Dark Magic to "Arcane" spells instead. I know.. small, insignificant change to many but this is an RPG and alignment is a big part of roleplay, right?

As for Warden, I can see where ice would work but I would like to see ice moved to the sorcerer skills (again, ice mage!) and wardens to have an earth- or air-based skill instead.. something like DK's Stonefist (but without the molten aspect) or Wind Shear for direct damage, Mire/Quicksand or North Winds for slowing and maybe a DOT, Earth Vortex or Cyclone for an AOE, Petrify or Blast for a stun, and Stoneskin or Wind Ward for a shield.

Anyone else have any little nagging things, specifically regarding class or spells/skills that you would love to see addressed?

Personally I like class fantasies as they are. The only thing I'd like to see are more variety for pets, skins would do nicely.

Sorcerers = Lightning and Dark magic (basically Palpatine, I mean overload is literally force lightning), plus obviously Daedric magic
Necromancer: Poison, Cold, Fire, reanimating stuff
Wardens = Ice, Nature, "druidic stuff"
DKs = Fire, Earth and Poison
Templars = Light, and some "dark light", but mostly just light
Nightblades = Shadow/Blood magic, some poisons stuff

The issue for me is that if you play them as magicka, all of the above will wield at least a destruction stuff, more often two (because Crushing Wall backbar). New types of magicka weapons would provide more variety, perhaps ones that are specific to an element and don't come in three different versions (because that leads to the "we want fire to be single target, lightning to be aoe and ice to be tanking" being forced upon us).

kaushad · October 2021

GoldenGirl wrote: »

I guess I was thinking about destruction spells overall and my preferences specifically, but I like that description! It definitely gives more depth to a character than I had previously considered. Where is that description from?

The description is from TESIII. Before that, sorcerers were mages who could absorb spells, but couldn't generate their own magicka.

Urzigurumash · October 2021

Perhaps a related subject is - what's the potential inverse of Sorcerer for a new class?

DKs and Wardens are mirrors of each other (Fire and Rock vs Ice and Flora/Fauna), as are Templars and Necros, quite obviously.

Nightblades mirror could be Bard - i.e., Silence and Stealth vs Clamor and Glamor.

Sorcerer? I'm not sure.

Anyhow, the classic schools of TES magic are spread across classes and guilds.

Supreme_Atromancer · November 2021

Great post. I think the problem is:

GoldenGirl wrote: »

To me, the Sorcerer is the quintessential elemental spellslinger... hurling fire, ice or lightning at enemies.

The classes have baked in power fantasies and are very restrictive. A sorcerer is supposed to be someone who barters with Oblivion and traffics with Daedra for power. The source of all their power is daedric, and therefore morally grey, at best. When they also decided for whatever reason that the class system needed easily-identifiable colour/elemental themes, Sorcerers got lightning, cause reasons. So your daedric-summoning sorcerer for some reason must limit herself to lightning daedra (including scamps, which now use lightning. Cause reasons).

Not surprisingly, people coming from the Elder Scrolls games expected to be able to play typical Elder Scrolls kinds of characters. If you want to play a traditional mage-type character, Sorcerer is the closest fit, but they aren't the same thing, because of the mythological theme they assigned, and mechanical scheme derived from it.

I would love it if they did away with the class system entirely. If the class skill lines were broken down into weapon or guild lines similar to Psijic, for example, you could earn them by membership in the guild they represent. My mage could learn Akaviiri dragon techniques by joining an Akaviiri martial monastery, but it doesn't define them. Someone could learn to conjure daedra through association with Mages Guild conjuration experts. etc.

A truer "mage" class might be a nice alternative if its not defined by a certain element, or reliant on daedric summoning, but focussed around the traditional schools of magic.

But as it is, the classes, with their baked-in colour/element are far too conceptually rigid. If you need to ignore much of the concept to get anything that remotely resembles the core archetypes people expect to be able to play, they are nothing more than liabilities. Right now, classes are only hooks to balance mechanics around.