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Speed running dungeons is not fun anymore.
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Hawco10✭✭✭✭I’ll random normal/group up on my healer. Apart from that, i usually Solo the dungeon (depending on dungeon ofc)
What I have noticed healing pugs is that it can go two ways. Either the 3 dps (inc fake tank) race through it and finish it really quick, or it’s the opposite, 3 guys not really knowing the mechs and wiping etc. Tbh, I prefer the 3 dps runs as I can be won and done and be on with something else.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »If you only do random normals for transmute, then why would you care if people are speed running? People typically speed run for weapons from bosses (hopefully smart loot puts a dent in this) and transmute crystals (could be solved if there were better PVE ways to get them).
@Oreyn_Bearclaw
That is why I do dungeons, not what I want to do while I am in the dungeon. I have no interest in speed running the dungeon. If I am going to sit through the PUG queue, I really want to experience the dungeon from front to end. I also might get into a dungeon I have never been in, although as time progresses, this will be less likely.
It is a little like paying full price for a movie (queue time wait) but by the time you get there, it is just ending (warp to last boss, already in progress). That is especially cool if it is not a movie I have seen before.
Again, I am not sure how this will work. I lived for years without doing dungeons on even an occasional basis. I am doing them now because I decided that is the lowest bar for getting transmute stuff. If ZOS makes it annoying, I just go back to not doing dungeons and skip that part of the game that uses transmute thingies.
Fair point.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on October 28, 2021 6:30PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game. Honestly: this game really needs to consider an entire rebalancing. Because that's part of the reason it has to rely mostly on one shot mechanisms because otherwise players can just stack tons of damage and destroy the content. It's unbalanced and the game suffers as a result. The OP is correct that it saps a lot of the fun out of it.
Edited by Jeremy on October 28, 2021 6:50PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭perfiction wrote: »Idk, I don't enjoy dungeons if I'm stuck as a healer/tank in a pug with 15k group dps. Wasting 10 minutes to kill one boss is not my definition of fun.
+people queue for RNDs because they want transmutes and exp, not because they want to 'enjoy' the dungeon for 1000th time. That's why they speedrun.
I get that. Farming the same dungeon over and over does get old, and can make you just want to get it over with asap. But it ruins the experience for newer players who are trying to learn the dungeon. And then those same players who are speed running get mad at them later when they don't know the mechanics later on when they attempt a Veteran dungeon.
It's a serious enough problem that I think they should add an option in the activity finder to highlight whether or not they are interested in a speed run. That way new players can avoid them, and Vets just wanting to speed through it can do so without ruining the experience for others.
I also think there is some middle ground here between a few seconds to kill a boss and then 10 minutes.Edited by Jeremy on October 28, 2021 7:06PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 28, 2021 8:30PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
Anything actually difficult due to non-mechs for an endgame player is going to be impossible for a new player.
Content who's stats are tuned for new and midgame players will be easy for endgame players.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 28, 2021 9:00PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
Anything actually difficult due to non-mechs for an endgame player is going to be impossible for a new player.
Content who's stats are tuned for new and midgame players will be easy for endgame players.
That's only because the top end damage is too high and forces them to balance things to ridiculous levels to compensate so they can achieve something resembling a challenge for those offensive players who use those "endgame builds" you are talking about.
That's why I say the damage needs to be toned down. The solution is not to just let them run around obliterating and trivializing everything except for a couple of dungeons and trials on HM. That's not a good way to balance a game.Edited by Jeremy on October 28, 2021 9:12PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
Anything actually difficult due to non-mechs for an endgame player is going to be impossible for a new player.
Content who's stats are tuned for new and midgame players will be easy for endgame players.
That's only because the top end damage is too high and forces them to balance things to ridiculous levels to compensate so they can achieve something resembling a challenge for those offensive players who use those "endgame builds" you are talking about.
That's why I say the damage needs to be toned down.
The game is supposed to work like that. The hardest content shouldn't be completable by just anyone, and the lowest level of content should be. That obviously means that people who can do the hard content will have an easy time with the tutorial stuff.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
Anything actually difficult due to non-mechs for an endgame player is going to be impossible for a new player.
Content who's stats are tuned for new and midgame players will be easy for endgame players.
That's only because the top end damage is too high and forces them to balance things to ridiculous levels to compensate so they can achieve something resembling a challenge for those offensive players who use those "endgame builds" you are talking about.
That's why I say the damage needs to be toned down.
The game is supposed to work like that. The hardest content shouldn't be completable by just anyone, and the lowest level of content should be. That obviously means that people who can do the hard content will have an easy time with the tutorial stuff.
Whether it's suppose to work like that or not, it shouldn't work like that. It's bad design, like I said, to have "end game" builds running around destroying everything in seconds except for a couple of dungeons and trials on hardmode, and ruining the experience for everyone else in the process. It probably ruins the experience for them as well, as I doubt they are having much fun either - which is probably why they are wanting to get it over with as fast as possible in the first place.
And I'm not talking about "tutorial stuff" either. I don't know why you keep suggesting that. I am talking about probably 90% of the game's content.
Edited by Jeremy on October 28, 2021 9:20PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
Anything actually difficult due to non-mechs for an endgame player is going to be impossible for a new player.
Content who's stats are tuned for new and midgame players will be easy for endgame players.
That's only because the top end damage is too high and forces them to balance things to ridiculous levels to compensate so they can achieve something resembling a challenge for those offensive players who use those "endgame builds" you are talking about.
That's why I say the damage needs to be toned down.
The game is supposed to work like that. The hardest content shouldn't be completable by just anyone, and the lowest level of content should be. That obviously means that people who can do the hard content will have an easy time with the tutorial stuff.
Whether it's suppose to work like that or not, it shouldn't work like that. It's bad design, like I said, to have "end game" builds running around destroying everything in seconds except for a couple of dungeons and trials on hardmode, and ruining the experience for everyone else in the process. It probably ruins the experience for them as well, as I doubt they are having much fun either - which is probably why they are wanting to get it over with as fast as possible in the first place.
It's not bad design. Progression is an essential part of keeping a game fun, especially in an MMO. If I couldn't improve my character to be able to easily handle challenges I previously found hard when I first started years ago, I would have left a long time ago.
The only problem is when new players don't get to hear the story of the dungeons, and when the end bosses of Overland stories are also trivial to endgame players despite being solo challenges. And neither of those requires rebalancing the entire game to solve.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I wish they would tone the damage down on this game, because it's just too high when compared to other aspects of the game. But the developers of this game have always favored damage over everything else when it comes to balancing. I think they like it that way.
No. It really is not. The damage is perfectly tuned when vet players are doing vet content, with some achievements already basically impossible for 99.99% of the playerbase. Instead of constantly nerfing people for no good reason whatsoever, people should stop using endgame builds for tutorial level content or accept that it will trivialize that content. The only thing needed is to add a story mode to pull people trying to roleplay out of rnd for that, and some a challenge mode to the overland story bosses. That's about the only times there's any legit conflict between playersbase power levels.
Enough with the nerfs
Yes, it really is.
I never said "nerf" players. There are better ways to tone down the damage output, such as improve enemy defenses. And I am talking about Veteran content as well. If you have ever seen what a group of experienced Veteran players stacking offense can do to one of the base Vet dungeons for example you would not be saying this. Because it is no where near "perfectly tuned". lol It's a joke.
And the game should be designed with "endgame builds" in mind as well. No one should be able to use specific builds and obliterate the game.
Yes, endgame builds should be able to obliterate early content. It's called progression. True end game content is already quite difficult, and no base game vets and Craglorn are not true end game. And endgame builds are tuned well for endgame content.
Most people in this game don't obliterate that content. They do it a perfectly fine pace. Mid and early game content have no business being tuned for the top 10%.
We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
Anything actually difficult due to non-mechs for an endgame player is going to be impossible for a new player.
Content who's stats are tuned for new and midgame players will be easy for endgame players.
That's only because the top end damage is too high and forces them to balance things to ridiculous levels to compensate so they can achieve something resembling a challenge for those offensive players who use those "endgame builds" you are talking about.
That's why I say the damage needs to be toned down.
The game is supposed to work like that. The hardest content shouldn't be completable by just anyone, and the lowest level of content should be. That obviously means that people who can do the hard content will have an easy time with the tutorial stuff.
Whether it's suppose to work like that or not, it shouldn't work like that. It's bad design, like I said, to have "end game" builds running around destroying everything in seconds except for a couple of dungeons and trials on hardmode, and ruining the experience for everyone else in the process. It probably ruins the experience for them as well, as I doubt they are having much fun either - which is probably why they are wanting to get it over with as fast as possible in the first place.
It's not bad design. Progression is an essential part of keeping a game fun, especially in an MMO. If I couldn't improve my character to be able to easily handle challenges I previously found hard when I first started years ago, I would have left a long time ago.
The only problem is when new players don't get to hear the story of the dungeons, and when the end bosses of Overland stories are also trivial to endgame players despite being solo challenges. And neither of those requires rebalancing the entire game to solve.
As I added in my last my post, I am not talking about "tutorial stuff". I don't know why you keep bringing that up as if that is what I am talking about. I am talking about probably 90% of the game's content.
It's not "progression" either to destroy everything in seconds and only have a couple of dungeons and trials on hardmode that offer any kind of a challenge either. That's the opposite of "progression", which is suppose to be advancing your character so you can take on greater challenges. It isn't so you can trivialize nearly the entire game. So yes, it is bad design, which is probably why they are "speed running" to begin with. Because its not fun for them either, just tedious, and they want to get it over with asap.
And this thread is proof that not hearing the story isn't the only issue new players have with it. They find it boring spending the entire dungeon chasing after "endgame" Vets obliterating everything in seconds. And honestly who can blame them because it is boring.
Edited by Jeremy on October 28, 2021 9:33PM0 -
six2fall✭✭✭✭It never was fun & really half the time it takes longer than just killing everything as a group. Unless all players are running thru you end up (still can ever if everyone running together) having 1+ players dying or getting to a door that wont open so need to go back anyways to kill adds to get it to open etc it's just annoying. Take idiots rushing fg1 tight now & doing the waterfall "short cut" they are losing out on 2 mini bosses so 2 skulls & even when I go normal route killing everything including bosses I end up getting to final boss either same time or shortly after if they happen to have argonians0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We just fundamentally disagree.
No boss should be dying in a couple of seconds, especially not in Veteran content. That's not balanced and spoils the fun of other players.
A lot of newer DLC content isn't really like that. Older dungeons work like that because the game was fundamentally different back then. Here is some changes:
1. Transmute station vastly increasing the amount DPS have access to full Correct traits for every build.
2. Trait change allowing things like AY to not be set in Healthy.
3. Literally every trait on Rings/Neck
4. Staves/2 Hander being a two piece bonus. - This one is HUGE as it basically allowed mag/2h to have a full blown extra stat.
5. Though small perfected gear was basically an extra "Free" stat.
6. All the changes/boosts to CP
7. Major Vuln
So yeah considering all that and among other things the game is so far from the "classic" veteran content its not even comparable. Yet how many threads do we hear of people complaining about "My tank did X% of the DPS!" so it isn't like EVERY group is blowing things up.Some Veteran Content is difficult. But it's usually made so with complex mechanics that can instantly kill you or stupid DPS races that demand you create one of those "endgame builds". And that's not a healthy situation for the game, especially one that is suppose to thrive on diversity and player choice.
If were talking DLC dungeons:
Also not entirely true. Yes there is SOME requirement, but it really isn't as high as you might think. Ironically Icereach HM I think is one of the few dungeons that outright kill you for Low DPS. I am fairly sure one single good DPS can basically solo the check however. Moonhunter has a soft enrage kinda where it will spawn behemonths if you take too long.
Other than that I can't really think of too many. I don't even think HM BDV Secret boss will outright kill you for lack of DPS, but it is just really hard to deal with a tiny space with AoE madness for a long time.0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »Rich Lambert said that making a storymod for group content is silly, since dungeons are designed for challenge content. So don't wait ...
I agree with this... which is why dungeons (and trials) shouldn't have stories.
My reply to OP: Was speed running dungeons *ever* fun? I can't stand just rush rush rushing through it.
Erm no. Can we please leave the stories in like the ONLY place in the game where they actually still make sense? Vet dungeons, arenas and trials (tho admittedly I don't run those much) are the only places you can run at this point and actually feel like you really saved the world from big evil monster that couldn't be stopped by anyone other than you, not that you ran around a kindergarten killing toddlers. Hence those are about the only quests (aside from dailies) I've done in the last several years. Just finally did Dread Cellar today with some friends, read all the dialogue, found all the notes/books, enjoyed the story there, enjoyed the choice at the end, enjoyed feeling like I really overcame something challenging and made a difference.
Far as speedrunning goes...pugs are pugs, but I can see how a new player would struggle with getting into group content as it is. Ironically enough, I really feel that one of the things destroying 'proper' dungeon experience is random normals reward. It being equal to vet reward just pushes 95% vet players into normal dungeons, which many of them grossly overqualify. Normal dungeons should imo be more about new players, stories and getting used to the game, not watching how someone 2k CP ahead of you can sprint through all of Fungal 1, skip all the things and burn poor Kragh before you even get there. Vet players should be encouraged to go into vet dungeons, but current reward system actually directly discourages that.Edited by Magdalina on October 29, 2021 12:00AM1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »If you only do random normals for transmute, then why would you care if people are speed running? People typically speed run for weapons from bosses (hopefully smart loot puts a dent in this) and transmute crystals (could be solved if there were better PVE ways to get them).
@Oreyn_Bearclaw
That is why I do dungeons, not what I want to do while I am in the dungeon. I have no interest in speed running the dungeon. If I am going to sit through the PUG queue, I really want to experience the dungeon from front to end. I also might get into a dungeon I have never been in, although as time progresses, this will be less likely.
It is a little like paying full price for a movie (queue time wait) but by the time you get there, it is just ending (warp to last boss, already in progress). That is especially cool if it is not a movie I have seen before.
Again, I am not sure how this will work. I lived for years without doing dungeons on even an occasional basis. I am doing them now because I decided that is the lowest bar for getting transmute stuff. If ZOS makes it annoying, I just go back to not doing dungeons and skip that part of the game that uses transmute thingies.
If you are having to wait so long, why not form your own group with the focus of running the dungeon the way you want to? That seems to be the ideal solution leading to a win/win. It takes less time to form the group (as it seems you are having long wait times) and you get to run the dungeon the way you want to.
Even better, over a short period of time, you will likely end up with people with similar dungeon interests that you can regularly count on for running a dungeon the way you want to. Heck, after I started playing MMORPGs casually this is how I started raiding with the equivalent of normal trials (different game). Over time I ended up with a very regular group and we started clearing the hardest difficulty raids in the game. Granted, I was really interested in a more casual playstyle and had grown time of serious raid leading but it was fun because the people were fun.
It is amazing what can happen when you take a little bit of time to form a group.
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SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was soloing Tempest Island the other night for an Undaunted pledge and Dremora Plunder Skull. On a whim, I decided to go through slowly, exploring every nook and cranny, and killing every last mob. I'm glad I did, because both of the treasure chests were in out-of-the-way spots that would have been completely overlooked if I'd been trying to rush through. Not only that, but both chests contained set gear pieces I hadn't collected yet. I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it was poor planning on ZOS's part to make the 6 dungeons for the weekly endeavor be at the same time as the event. People who want to kill every boss for the skulls conflict with speed runners who skip bosses and blare through a dungeon just to complete it.Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!0 -
Ksariyu✭✭✭✭If you are having to wait so long, why not form your own group with the focus of running the dungeon the way you want to? That seems to be the ideal solution leading to a win/win. It takes less time to form the group (as it seems you are having long wait times) and you get to run the dungeon the way you want to.
Even better, over a short period of time, you will likely end up with people with similar dungeon interests that you can regularly count on for running a dungeon the way you want to. Heck, after I started playing MMORPGs casually this is how I started raiding with the equivalent of normal trials (different game). Over time I ended up with a very regular group and we started clearing the hardest difficulty raids in the game. Granted, I was really interested in a more casual playstyle and had grown time of serious raid leading but it was fun because the people were fun.
It is amazing what can happen when you take a little bit of time to form a group.
I'll let you know when I can find a guild that isn't too busy running through their daily chore list to actually help someone else. I've been in numerous ones over the years and I'm lucky if I can even find a group for pledges, never mind farming or just for fun. Even if I queue DPS and wait half an hour for a dungeon, it's still faster than waiting around for three other people to be ready for a pre-made. Congrats to those of you who have connections already. For everyone else, this is one of the most anti-social MMOs around.
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oddbasket✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sheezabeast wrote: »I think it was poor planning on ZOS's part to make the 6 dungeons for the weekly endeavor be at the same time as the event. People who want to kill every boss for the skulls conflict with speed runners who skip bosses and blare through a dungeon just to complete it.
The daily random XP and transmute crystals is always the culprit for speedrunning in pugs. Speedrunners are there for that reward alone especially during double xp events.
If I truly wanted to clear 6 dungeons as fast as possible, jumping into normal FG1 solo 6 times would just take me 30mins at most.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you are having to wait so long, why not form your own group with the focus of running the dungeon the way you want to? That seems to be the ideal solution leading to a win/win. It takes less time to form the group (as it seems you are having long wait times) and you get to run the dungeon the way you want to.
Even better, over a short period of time, you will likely end up with people with similar dungeon interests that you can regularly count on for running a dungeon the way you want to. Heck, after I started playing MMORPGs casually this is how I started raiding with the equivalent of normal trials (different game). Over time I ended up with a very regular group and we started clearing the hardest difficulty raids in the game. Granted, I was really interested in a more casual playstyle and had grown time of serious raid leading but it was fun because the people were fun.
It is amazing what can happen when you take a little bit of time to form a group.
I'll let you know when I can find a guild that isn't too busy running through their daily chore list to actually help someone else. I've been in numerous ones over the years and I'm lucky if I can even find a group for pledges, never mind farming or just for fun. Even if I queue DPS and wait half an hour for a dungeon, it's still faster than waiting around for three other people to be ready for a pre-made. Congrats to those of you who have connections already. For everyone else, this is one of the most anti-social MMOs around.
That is odd. Sorry to hear you have only experienced such poor guilds. Heck, the first guild I joined, was invited by someone I met in a GF dungeon, which is good for forming up groups. They have some good leaders and form raids for different levels of player skill and have PvP groups as well.
I think it really comes down to the quality of the leadership of the guild. I will admit I did join one thinking the more the merrier but found that no one seemed to do anything with others. I quit that guild as they were a waste of space.
Good luck finding a good guild.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, I find this to be the case. At this point, by the time I create the group and then do the dungeon, I would have already completed the PUG dungeon.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0