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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Vateshran Hollows - Great Example for Bad Game Design
Gleitfrosch
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The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
EDIT:
As correctly noted in a post below:
This post does not aim at the whole arena, just the last boss fight
Edited by Gleitfrosch on October 17, 2021 7:17PM Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
EDIT:
As correctly noted in a post below:
This post does not aim at the whole arena, just the last boss fight
16
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Those mini bosses function like the stages of the final boss of the Maelstrom Arena. If you remember the first stage is him teleporting around while some NPCs attack you, then he teleports above forcing you to destroy three crystals up top while he tries to knock you off and kill you, and then it the third stage is like the first but he summons all of his army, the ghost mechanic makes a return, and ritualists gather in the center to summon the Bone Colossus.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK5 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I enjoy that they tried something new but I gotta be honest, I much prefer Maelstrom.
It seems to me they tried to go for a solo dungeon feel instead of arena with waves which is neat. For me it worked quite neatly up until the final fight that became too long and punishing if you failed. Having the boss regain her health 3 times made it (for me) a chore, if I for any reason had to restart the fight.
I don't mind it being punishing if I don't feel like I waste a lot of time if I have to start over.
I much prefer a shorter difficult fight than a drawn out one which I felt like it became at times.
That being said I like Vateshran, but I do admit I play Maelstrom much more.9 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:21AMPC/EU7 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually for quite a few people out there it's the opposite. I might still prefer vMA but they did a really good job on vVH.4 -
Gleitfrosch✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
I agree to a point. It is easy if you have the DPS and health. but that brings us to my first point: no challegnging/interesting game mechanic, just a DPS /health check. MA is a lot easier but also more interesting.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:21AM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
You can't simultaneously argue people need to l2p and that it's easy content. People don't need to l2p easy content. And no, it's not common.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:22AM27 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:23AM15 -
gamerguy757✭✭✭✭✭I prefer Maelstrom hands down. The mobs are annoying, the Fire Orb mechanic never works properly and the Vateshran weapons and arena sets are incredibly underwhelming. In VMA, almost every weapon except the sword and board was useful, and even Winterborn had some use. But vVH has 2 useful weapons: the destro and 2H.1
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Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭gamerguy757 wrote: »I prefer Maelstrom hands down. The mobs are annoying, the Fire Orb mechanic never works properly and the Vateshran weapons and arena sets are incredibly underwhelming. In VMA, almost every weapon except the sword and board was useful, and even Winterborn had some use. But vVH has 2 useful weapons: the destro and 2H.
From my perspective, it’s the daggers and the sword and board. So I guess many of the weapons have a niche that appeals to someone.1 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love the concept of the vVH dungeon-style design. Last boss critical point is just when you TP back from 3rd portal and it summons it's minions. If You manage to work on a strat at that point You have a high chance to finish the run.PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk1 -
Eormenric✭✭✭Cillion3117 wrote: »Guess I'm in the minority that actually likes it.
Vateshran Hollows is the most fun arena. It is very engaging, offers a lot of choice, and thematically presents something so unique with the void. When VH first came out, I couldn't stop playing it. I was hooked on the final boss specifically because of how intriguing it was. I died a lot in the beginning, but mastery over this arena makes it even more enjoyable. Whenever I have reason to visit Vateshran, I'm excited. Maelstrom is just too linear and repetitive for me at this point.
I somewhat see the OP's perspective of it being a Dps and Health Check at the end. I still think there's the option to be different, though. Whatever dps is required for MA can be the same requirement for VH--it's just that there's more mechanics involved.
TL;DR VH is not bad game design and it's hyperbole to wrap the entire arena into that when it seems you only struggle with fulfilling the requirements of the last boss. Yeah, it can take a long time, but that's part of the achievement when it's all over. However, they do still need solo arenas to cater to dedicated tanks and healers.6 -
SickleCider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Cillion3117 wrote: »Guess I'm in the minority that actually likes it.
Vateshran Hollows is the most fun arena. It is very engaging, offers a lot of choice, and thematically presents something so unique with the void. When VH first came out, I couldn't stop playing it. I was hooked on the final boss specifically because of how intriguing it was. I died a lot in the beginning, but mastery over this arena makes it even more enjoyable. Whenever I have reason to visit Vateshran, I'm excited. Maelstrom is just too linear and repetitive for me at this point.
I somewhat see the OP's perspective of it being a Dps and Health Check at the end. I still think there's the option to be different, though. Whatever dps is required for MA can be the same requirement for VH--it's just that there's more mechanics involved.
TL;DR VH is not bad game design and it's hyperbole to wrap the entire arena into that when it seems you only struggle with fulfilling the requirements of the last boss. Yeah, it can take a long time, but that's part of the achievement when it's all over. However, they do still need solo arenas to cater to dedicated tanks and healers.
This is my feeling on VH. I fell in love with it when it debuted for all of the reasons you cited.
It's a great idea with a few warts. The warts, for me:
1. Some of the bosses and enemies have what I'd call "unnecessary" health. I'm looking at you, minotaur.
2. There are a handful of places during the arena that rely on throwing lots of adds at you, which I never thought was a compelling way of adding difficulty.
3. And, finally: there's a stitch in that mechanic about collecting the orbs for buffs. The stitch is that because of the way things are tuned, some players are going to find collecting these buffs mandatory rather than optional and a fun puzzle surprise. It becomes a timesink at that point.
Despite the warts I plan to go back into vVH soon to pop the last achievement or two I'm missing. It's nice to have something worthwhile that I can approach on my own terms. I'm also in a prog team, and we're making good progress, but it's my personal achievements that I feel the proudest about, and VH is a worthy pursuit.✨🐦✨ Blackfeather Court Commission ✨🐦✨0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The last boss in vMA does have a dps check as well, but it's much easier to overcome nowdays (not so much though back in the day). It's true that the faster you are after coming out of the last portal in VH, the better it will be, since the fire-spinners in particular are really annoying, and you have to mind your positioning if you get the circle mechanic amidst all the adds/aoes but even then, you can still pace yourself somewhat by having enough mitigation and good awareness.1 -
emilyhyoyeon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I found VH to be much more engaging, interactive, and fun than MA. MA drags on and on and on for me in the same way that DSA does--WAY too many waves of unengaging adds. The only fun part of MA for me is the last boss. Both VH and MA take me about 35min to complete, but when I do VH it feels like I'm in there for 10min, versus MA feels like I'm in there for an hour and a half.
In fact VH final boss is probably my favorite boss in VH in terms of mechanic and thematic design. I don't think the push to use AOEs in that fight is a negative. I can criticize a lot of ESO pve content but VH is something they did right overall imo.IGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller
Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & scholar of the ayleids
High Priest Eraamine as a houseguest please C:7 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?
Tanks and healers are group support roles who have no business in solo content. So no, the concerns of tanks and healers in solo content is entirely irrelevant.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:24AM4 -
kmcaj✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?
Tanks and healers are group support roles who have no business in solo content. So no, the concerns of tanks and healers in solo content is entirely irrelevant.
Agree. Even if you stack stuff nicely you still gotta kill everything and nobody to heal but yourself.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:24AM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Solo content is roleless, and should be completeable in a variety of builds imo. Perhaps a tanky build shouldn't be able to get the achievement for killing fast, but it should in theory have an easier time getting the no death imo.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 18, 2021 12:01AM8 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?
Tanks and healers are group support roles who have no business in solo content. So no, the concerns of tanks and healers in solo content is entirely irrelevant.
The issue I have with hollows and any other future content like it; is not about tanks or healers being in solo dps end game content is about those role’s utility sets being placed there instead of group content or solo content designed to challenge tank/healer roles.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:25AM1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
You can't simultaneously argue people need to l2p and that it's easy content. People don't need to l2p easy content. And no, it's not common.
I cannot speak for Vateshran yet as I am have only cleared vMA. I am still a fairly new player. With vMA, once I figured out how to clear an arena it was much easier the next time. After I finally cleared the last arena I hopped back in and cleared all nice in about two and a half hours. It was much easier as I had figured out how to approach each fight and I expect those who have cleared it more often have figured out more to make it fairly easy.
So it may not be a L2P issue but it may be a figure out how to approach each fight. After all, these are not stack and burn fights like a DPS dummy and they are expected to required a degree of figuring out how to approach each mechanic.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:25AM0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?
Tanks and healers are group support roles who have no business in solo content. So no, the concerns of tanks and healers in solo content is entirely irrelevant.
The issue I have with hollows and any other future content like it; is not about tanks or healers being in solo dps end game content is about those role’s utility sets being placed there instead of group content or solo content designed to challenge tank/healer roles.
Those sets can be earned on normal which is faceroll easy.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:26AM2 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Gleitfrosch wrote: »The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.
[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.
It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?
Tanks and healers are group support roles who have no business in solo content. So no, the concerns of tanks and healers in solo content is entirely irrelevant.
The issue I have with hollows and any other future content like it; is not about tanks or healers being in solo dps end game content is about those role’s utility sets being placed there instead of group content or solo content designed to challenge tank/healer roles.
Those sets can be earned on normal which is faceroll easy.
The best versions of those sets cannot be acquired in normal mode. And when min-maxing builds for end game content missing stats lowers the effectiveness of those builds. Tanks/healers should not have to settle less effective tools because zos places the best versions behind solo dps vet content. There should be solo arena challenge paths for each role allowing tanking/healers to complete their own vet level solo content. And earn their respective awards.
Vet hollows being hard/easy isn’t the main issue I have with it. I have cleared up to the final boss in vet mode with my tank. I should not have to go into a dps centric solo arena and complete a dps check as a tank to get a small chance of getting a tank role set item.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:26AM1 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree to a point. It is easy if you have the DPS and health. but that brings us to my first point: no challegnging/interesting game mechanic, just a DPS /health check. MA is a lot easier but also more interesting.
Breaking the ghost chain requires about 10k dps. That's all the requirements you have there. Everything else can be solved by good moving and avoiding mechanics. There is absolutely NO need for meta gear, high dps or high health whatsoever. [snip]
edit: also keep in mind that you have access to the health and magicka/stamina orbs for a whopping buff... and ROTPO and sigils.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 18, 2021 10:27AMAnd if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon5 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I absolutely love Vateshran.
But I can see that the difference in difficulty between the final boss and the rest of the arena is really quite steep. The largest problem for me is that with the amount of adds that spawn in the last fight, you can't properly target crucial enemies, even if you do have the DPS. That can get really unnecessarily frustrating, and I think a small decrease in adds wouldn't be too objetionable to people like me who love the arena in general.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.7 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I absolutely love Vateshran.
But I can see that the difference in difficulty between the final boss and the rest of the arena is really quite steep. The largest problem for me is that with the amount of adds that spawn in the last fight, you can't properly target crucial enemies, even if you do have the DPS. That can get really unnecessarily frustrating, and I think a small decrease in adds wouldn't be too objetionable to people like me who love the arena in general.
I agree with this quite a bit. A lot of people it isn't that don't have the dps, it's that they cannot get that dps onto what needs to be dps'ed because the adds get in the way.Edited by spartaxoxo on October 18, 2021 3:47AM10 -
Thoragaal✭✭✭✭✭Gleitfrosch wrote: »EDIT:
As correctly noted in a post below:
This post does not aim at the whole arena, just the last boss fight
I just want to thank you for using the edit function in the original text. I wish more people would do it.
Now carry on!
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
"I've always wanted to kick a duck up the arse" -Karl Pilkington, on the question what he'd do if it was the last day on earth.1 -
novemberhhh✭✭✭amazing some of these pugs are -still- trying to tank things until they just get tired or something...
and then doing it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
poor little broken drones, at least you can just keep trying the same exact thing forever and4040 -
EF321✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You can skip chain mechanic with sorc streak, nightblade shade teleport, other classes with psijic ult.0 -
TheImperfect✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like it, it's a bit different and made for a new challenge. I'm glad it was different from Maelstrom. I did get frustrated with Maebrooga a few times but eventually figured it out. I've only done it on normal but leaves another challenge yet to do it on vet.0
