Vateshran Hollows - Great Example for Bad Game Design

Eshkerigal

I don't like one thing in last boss in Vateshran: specific classes can avoid dps check mechanic and make whole fight very easy.

thorwyn wrote: »

I agree to a point. It is easy if you have the DPS and health. but that brings us to my first point: no challegnging/interesting game mechanic, just a DPS /health check. MA is a lot easier but also more interesting.

Breaking the ghost chain requires about 10k dps. That's all the requirements you have there. Everything else can be solved by good moving and avoiding mechanics. There is absolutely NO need for meta gear, high dps or high health whatsoever. [snip]
edit: also keep in mind that you have access to the health and magicka/stamina orbs for a whopping buff... and ROTPO and sigils.

[edited for baiting]

Or you can always play sorc and avoid "ghost chain"

thorwyn

Yes, you can. But why would you waste a skill slot just to avoid one mechanic that's as easy as it can get? Like I said, 10k dps is all you need. And if you're clever and kill the golems first instead of nuking the boss, it's even easier.

Veinblood1965

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I enjoy that they tried something new but I gotta be honest, I much prefer Maelstrom.

It seems to me they tried to go for a solo dungeon feel instead of arena with waves which is neat. For me it worked quite neatly up until the final fight that became too long and punishing if you failed. Having the boss regain her health 3 times made it (for me) a chore, if I for any reason had to restart the fight.

I don't mind it being punishing if I don't feel like I waste a lot of time if I have to start over.

I much prefer a shorter difficult fight than a drawn out one which I felt like it became at times.
That being said I like Vateshran, but I do admit I play Maelstrom much more.

Same here. I ran VH once and have never went back. The loot/rewards are not as good as MA either in my opinion.

jaws343

thorwyn wrote: »

Yes, you can. But why would you waste a skill slot just to avoid one mechanic that's as easy as it can get? Like I said, 10k dps is all you need. And if you're clever and kill the golems first instead of nuking the boss, it's even easier.

Yeah, step one, build ult, step two, pull all golems at once around the boss, step three drop destro ult and burn all the golems.

AuraStorm43

That last boss is so frustrating i have yet to clear it on vet

I can do vma with my eyes closed at this point, in comparison

Ippokrates

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Solo content is roleless, and should be completeable in a variety of builds imo. Perhaps a tanky build shouldn't be able to get the achievement for killing fast, but it should in theory have an easier time getting the no death imo.

Yeah, in theory. In practice, and i have checked it, dedicated tank will be easily overwhelmed by the constantly spawned mobs to the point where it will be no longer able to sustain & survive.

So sure, DD have small advantage thanks to RotPO but even then they still need to keep decent shield, burst healing and sustain.

The_Wunderboy wrote: »

I liked it, but I play sorc main so easy mode on last boss.

Actually, Sorc, NB & DK have much easier time due to options for avoiding dps check, then othee classes. Especially Templar that must eliminate babushka in melee range, usually surrounded by collosuses and with minotaur aoe below feets.

And yes, VH, especially in vet mode is the best arena we have by now. Maelstrom, DSA & BRP are so looong and boring. Plus VH has amazing achievements. Got a lot of fun making them ^^

kmcaj

Ippokrates wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Solo content is roleless, and should be completeable in a variety of builds imo. Perhaps a tanky build shouldn't be able to get the achievement for killing fast, but it should in theory have an easier time getting the no death imo.

Yeah, in theory. In practice, and i have checked it, dedicated tank will be easily overwhelmed by the constantly spawned mobs to the point where it will be no longer able to sustain & survive.

So sure, DD have small advantage thanks to RotPO but even then they still need to keep decent shield, burst healing and sustain.

The_Wunderboy wrote: »

I liked it, but I play sorc main so easy mode on last boss.

Actually, Sorc, NB & DK have much easier time due to options for avoiding dps check, then othee classes. Especially Templar that must eliminate babushka in melee range, usually surrounded by collosuses and with minotaur aoe below feets.

And yes, VH, especially in vet mode is the best arena we have by now. Maelstrom, DSA & BRP are so looong and boring. Plus VH has amazing achievements. Got a lot of fun making them ^^

Probably just comes down to preference to what you like playing with. When I was farming it I chose templar over nb and sorc because was faster and easier for me.

I liked this arena too. For me the 1st vHH clear was way easier than 1st vMA. In vMA I died so much on a stage that I stopped playing and didn't go back for 6+ months. Happened like that on a couple stages. Ist vHH clear was single 1 1/2 to 2 hour session and was fun. Hoping for new solo arena next chapter.

stefj68

i prefer maalstrom that last boss fight too many spanning for aoe all over the places

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I dont see it like that. Last boss didnt bother me at all. It's only a DPS and Health check if you make it one, and go for a nuke. Otherwise, if you play mechanics, it can be the exact opposite of that. That is true for most fights you try to nuke, you better have the guns, or its gonna get messy.

I will say, that I really don't feel the urge to play Vateshran again. Every now and the I do get the itch to run through VMA. My issue with Vateshran is that it feels more like I am trying to solo a relatively easy vet dungeon, than play an arena designed for a single player. Most of the bosses feel like target dummies, which I think gets a little stale.

Jeremy

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.

EDIT:
As correctly noted in a post below:
This post does not aim at the whole arena, just the last boss fight

I didn't care for it either. The arena was well designed up until the last fight, which enabled both offensive and defensive characters to win. But that last fight is basically just a DPS check. It was impossible for my tank character to clear it (he was able to beat all the other stages). But I had to completely redesign my character to win that last fight on Veteran. On a game like this - which is suppose to be about build diversity - I agree it's bad design to make content exclusively for offensive characters.

For those having trouble targeting, you can set a preferred target (it's under Controls/keybindings/Targeting). It helps.

Jeremy

thorwyn wrote: »

Yes, you can. But why would you waste a skill slot just to avoid one mechanic that's as easy as it can get? Like I said, 10k dps is all you need. And if you're clever and kill the golems first instead of nuking the boss, it's even easier.

Unless it's been nerfed (significantly) since I did it, 10k DPS is not enough. I would say more like 15k bare minimum, and that's if you don't make any mistakes, use your ultimate strategically, and get the secret buffs located in the other stages. And I would recommend closer to 20k if you want to avoid a mountain of frustration.

thorwyn

I would say more like 15k bare minimum

A ghost has 227,952 hp. You have 25 seconds to kill it. So the actual minimum DPS is even LESS than 10k.

Aznarb

umagon wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.

[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.

It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?

[edited to remove quote]

This, so much this.. Arena are just another insult to support player who are already not needed in most of the game when you get good....
That said, I found vVH easier than Maelstrom, done it in the 1st run w/o rotpo. But yeah, you need a dps char to do it.

jaws343

Aznarb wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

The design of the final Boss is a great example for the lack of ideas for challenging game mechanics and the attempt to compensate this by spamming the area with AOE and enemies what in the end reduces the whole fight to a simple DPS and Health check.
Such design forces players towards meta skills and sets which provide enough DPS and health to survive the fight and punishes everyone who tries something different, especially during the last stage (after killing all three minibossses).
Additionally there are no levels/rounds like in the maelstorm arena, if a player dies, he has to start the fight from the beginning. Even is it would be easy to add a restart point after every miniboss, like the levles in the maelstorm arena.

[snip] Veteshran is one of the easiest content in the game, and the triple achievement from there is the most common.

It’s easy for dps. The major thing I dislike about the format; is zos is placing healer/tank role items into the award pool. Image being a fully devoted tank and a useful puling tool is placed behind an aggressive dps check. Then people telling you just to make a dps build. When has dps players have build fully geared tank builds in order get their set awards?

[edited to remove quote]

This, so much this.. Arena are just another insult to support player who are already not needed in most of the game when you get good....
That said, I found vVH easier than Maelstrom, done it in the 1st run w/o rotpo. But yeah, you need a dps char to do it.

Support characters have BRP, Dawnstar, and every group dungeon in the game.

There are only 2 solo arenas. VH doesn't need to be nerfed so that a tank with 5K dps can spend 2+ hours clearing the arena.

L_Nici

I personally actually like the last boss in Vateshran. She is a lot of fun and I am a big fan of the 3 times you have to get of the stage. The only problem I have sometimes is that she summons the chain of shadows and then nukes the stage without them being despawned, then you are trapped and most likely can't reach the Crossbow Pull point.