Anyone who plays a stamblade can tell you how much easier it is to sustain when half your skills use mag.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Anyone who plays a stamblade can tell you how much easier it is to sustain when half your skills use mag.

Easier, yes, especially solo, but a fully buffed group and especially a Trials group renders it unnecessary in most cases.

In the end, the issue still comes down to one where maximizing damage output means getting sustain to just barely enough to cover Ability costs and occasional extra uses such as Dodge or Block, and then putting everything else into DPS output through achieving viable Pen soft cap to balancing Crit Chance, Crit Damage Bonus, and base Damage stats. This is precisely why the high-end meta has focused on maximizing Crit in the past (at least the past couple of years), and now with Crit nerfs to stacking both Crit and Damage (although it still seems to be leaning Crit-heavy). *Nobody* focuses on resource Recovery. Just like with Pen, they take enough to get the job done and no more. Anything else results in reduced DPS output. Even in solo settings, having more Recovery than is needed to maintain Ability usage is just wasted damage potential.

So to everyone in this thread...

The *solo* sustain advantage for Hybrids is a *disadvantage* in group settings, not because the sustain itself is a problem, but because the raw damage output is too low to be viable and the higher sustain doesn't improve DPS output.

Truly balancing Hybrid builds requires making them viable in group settings, one way or another. If any of you want to suggest alternative ways to achieve that other than increasing Hybrid damage output, go on and do it. If any of you want to argue that Hybrids *shouldn't be balanced with Pure builds*, then do that too/instead, but make sure you are making reasonable, rational, logical arguments and not just hating on Hybrids, because others like myself *will* pick your arguments apart if you don't make good arguments.

(On a side note: I've been talking specifically about damage and DPS output, but the same basic principles apply to Healing output as well, because increasing Damage and Crit increases Healing capability, but too much Recovery is just wasted potential).

Lynx

Stx wrote: »

Give these new changes some time. I'll bet people can find ways to make hybrids viable with what we have now. Hybrids might still have lower overall damage stats, but they can combo hard hitting skills like orb with other hard hitting skills like volley. Most classes have a magicka ability with very high damage as well like winter's revenge they can combo with the best stamina abilities as well.

They already are viable. I run soul harvest instead of incap on a stamblade. My spell damage is 1000 less than my weapon damage on my 2h bar but I still wreck people. I also run mixed skills on my warden and necro.

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

I voted that they should be equal, because in the strictest sense everything in an MMO should be able to achieve more or less the same and meta builds shouldn't exist.

However.. I personally think we should be rewarded for thinking outside the box and using more creative & interesting builds, such as hybrids. It opens up a world of possibilities and I don't think we should have our wings clipped (i.e. by ensuring "pure" builds always do more damage) so as to make creative thinking pointless - because then the game becomes boring.

A far more interesting question IMO is "should gear & skills function differently in PvE than in PvP?" - in which case the answer is YES. If something is clearly OP in PvP then of course it should be balanced, but not at the expense of making it useless in PvE, because then we end up with boring meta builds that all use the same non-class skills, and BiS gear that doesn't change for years. Isolate PvE and PvP balancing and then hybrid / pure builds become a moot point and the game gets much more interesting.

Working with these latest changes in PTS (crit cap, flat stats) has been the most interesting thing I've done in ESO for a long time - using Siroria on a 2H stam build for example is hilariously good. That kind of freedom is so so good for the game, and if it all gets wound back so that hybrids don't out-perform "pure" builds I'm gonna be really disappointed.

I couldn't agree more... very well said!

karekiz wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Players are so short sighted. ZOS has a 90% success rate of making things worse when they respond to a small portion of the player base that thinks they know what they want but doesn't foresee the consequences across all game modes.

PvP is a dead game mode and ZoS doesn't get money off it though.

I'll take "Running line from PvErs for 1000, Alex." 😆

But in all seriousness, its not dead and they make plenty of money. Most of us run ESO+. We buy the expansions. We buy crowns.

If ZOS only catered to the activity that most players are taking part in at any given point of the day, then we'd be ruled by the players just standing around wayshrines talking smack in zone chat while waiting for queues to pop.

karekiz wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Players are so short sighted. ZOS has a 90% success rate of making things worse when they respond to a small portion of the player base that thinks they know what they want but doesn't foresee the consequences across all game modes.

PvP is a dead game mode and ZoS doesn't get money off it though.

Not exactly true. ZOS makes a lot of money off PvPers, and it doesn't take long examining many of the PvPers in Cyrodiil to figure that one out. Place is full of fashion models, people running gold gear, and those who have thousands of hours poured into other areas of the game.

Took one person making a poll to bring that to light.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588924/pvpers-do-you-buy-sell-crowns-do-you-sub-eso-plus

If it was truly making money, ZoS would have monetized PvP only things <Similar to Imperial City> by now. Cosmetics etc don't really count as they aren't PvP specific. Anyone can buy those and do both content. I don't buy them, I PvE, but that doesn't mean other Casual players in overland won't.

And that poll

PvPers. Do you buy/sell crowns? Do you sub ESO Plus? 102 votes

So out of 102 votes - 61% said overwhelming yes - Combined both "Yes" comments. 61% of 102 isn't exactly a great metric when you think of how many active customers exist

I would go as far as to say the last attempt to monetize PvP was Battlegrounds that was sold alongside Morrowind <Remember when that was a thing?> - IIRC they made it literally free now.

How many people do you expect to vote in a poll? How many people do you think are active on the forum at all? That's a good snap shot, quite honestly. It's rare that someone says they don't have ESO+ because our inventory fills up way fast due to RotW.

Your argument seems to be that because they aren't putting out new pvp modes every dlc, they must not make money off of pvp.

Cyrodiil remains king because it is the most popular mode. IC is dead outside of events because it's poorly designed, imo, and the tel var system only benefits sweats and NBs. BGs are toxic cheese fests, especially right now.

Why would they design a whole new pvp mode when one remains popular and they're devoting their resources to making it better? Not that they've succeeded yet.

Like it or not there are two aspects of the game with active populations and there is a lot of crossover. Most people I know spend time in both sides. Ultimately, the two modes are tied together and changes have to weighed to not trash one mode over the other.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

PVP isn't a separate game. You can only do so much with battle spirit. You can't make pvp versions of every set.

I dont know, I'd say PvP and PvE are two separate games. Sure they're within the same game (ESO) but they are completely different game modes with unique requirements due to different "enemy" behaviours, health pools, armour, damage shields, abilities etc etc. In PvP the focus has to be on balance so that every player has the same chances of success and the deciding factor is pure skill, whereas in PvE its more about providing damage, buffs / debuffs and dealing with mechanics.

As things stand, any interesting skill or new piece of gear has to be limited in PvE so that it isn't OP in PvP, which means we are basically stuck with the same gear and skills every single patch and DLC, with the recent exception of Bahsei. How long ago did Elsweyr come out, and Relequen is still the BiS stam gear. People have been crying out for Stone Giant to be fixed or a proper stam whip for DK but it hasn't happened - I assume - because then stam DKs would be wrecking people in PvP.

Anyway this all sounds like a bit of a whine, so I'll end on a positive: the recent changes seem like they're going to be excellent for PvE. I can't comment on PvP because I have zero experience there but I really hope there isn't a big nerf incoming on the next patch that undoes all this awesomeness. I dont have the answers on how to fix PvE vs PvP balancing but my instinct is that somehow isolating the former from changes in the latter is the best way to keep things both balanced and interesting.

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

PVP isn't a separate game. You can only do so much with battle spirit. You can't make pvp versions of every set.

I dont know, I'd say PvP and PvE are two separate games. Sure they're within the same game (ESO) but they are completely different game modes with unique requirements due to different "enemy" behaviours, health pools, armour, damage shields, abilities etc etc. In PvP the focus has to be on balance so that every player has the same chances of success and the deciding factor is pure skill, whereas in PvE its more about providing damage, buffs / debuffs and dealing with mechanics.

As things stand, any interesting skill or new piece of gear has to be limited in PvE so that it isn't OP in PvP, which means we are basically stuck with the same gear and skills every single patch and DLC, with the recent exception of Bahsei. How long ago did Elsweyr come out, and Relequen is still the BiS stam gear. People have been crying out for Stone Giant to be fixed or a proper stam whip for DK but it hasn't happened - I assume - because then stam DKs would be wrecking people in PvP.

Anyway this all sounds like a bit of a whine, so I'll end on a positive: the recent changes seem like they're going to be excellent for PvE. I can't comment on PvP because I have zero experience there but I really hope there isn't a big nerf incoming on the next patch that undoes all this awesomeness. I dont have the answers on how to fix PvE vs PvP balancing but my instinct is that somehow isolating the former from changes in the latter is the best way to keep things both balanced and interesting.

Respectfully, you can think of them as two different games but they aren't. It's the same assets. The same engine. The same mechanics. Battle Spirit and the OCCASIONAL change to a skill to prevent it working against players (like inner beast) doesn't change that.

My real issue here is not making all sets to work for spell and weapon damage. It's going to cause problems and will lead to nerfs, but what's new, right?

It's that people are already unsatisfied and want them to go further.

People are actively advocating to convince the stamina and mag resources. It's a terrible idea and short sighted. But that's what players do. They always want more more more and then they get it and realize their eyes were bigger than their brains.

Spell Sword is something i keep seeing people wishing for. You literally can already this. Swords specifically give spell damage. But it's not good enough people a staff will still do more mag damage.