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Hybrid stat sharing should be refused

DepressiveCrab
DepressiveCrab
Soul Shriven
I bet my post late a little and somebody wrote something like that. Maybe 10 times or 100, but maybe if a few players will say it, ZOS will hear?

Blackwood&Waking Flame created great meta. Yes, all people are playing Medusa+Bahsei, but depends on a situation or your playstyle can be useful a lot of: MS+Siro still working, mec.acuity, DW, warden can damage with ice/ice, stamina can run with staff. Its golden cross section of hybridization and diversity.

Changes in sets,which will give same spd/wpd stats based on developer's wishes "bring to life the mantra of “play the way you want”".

But in fact, current state of the game (hybrid stats of armor and the scaling damage from offensive stat)]already allows you to play with almost any builds.

Quester who want to play a servant of Nocturnal with a staff&two blades, in a light armor with set which summons raven, already can close all vet content, and even most of the DLC HM dungeons.

Do you think, that after this changes somebody in build like this will go to RG HM!? NO!

But this changes will lead to complete erasure of difference between mana and stamina, just color of resource will be different, what's use of build anything, if all are same?

Stamina players have the strongest sets in this game, so meta setups for stamina and mana will almost lose their difference! Above average players will be forced to close current hm and triple play in kinras / yokeda on any characters.
Casuals can already play whatever they want, but these changes will kill the rest of the variety for those who play meta.

Maybe you give chance this game and stop this changes?
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Definitely valid concerns. I'm not sure what ZOS' understands as "play the way you want". Will they be happy once people can start being dps with a restoration staff equipped?
    To me, "play the way you want" always meant every class can play every roll and every spec and get invited to all content. That entails a certain level of balance between specs, classes and weapon choices, but I never understood it as a free pass for making bad decisions when optimizing your build.
    People were asking for hybrid builds because there is no other way to use a melee weapon and magic together, because ZOS completely overlooked the spellblade archetype when they made this game. And instead of fixing this by adding a bound sword as a weapon option or something they just hybridized everything to the point where the difference between stamina and magicka is pretty much gone. They took the easy path and now we suffer the consequences.
    We are only one step away from trading in both magicka and stamina for a single "resource stat", and that would honestly make more sense at this point than what we currently have too. Adding stamina morphs to more and more class skills removes choice from the game as the choice between stamina or magicka isn't really one and soon it won't even change your playstyle or build anymore. But I feel something important is getting lost on the way here.

    Beyond that, these changes are also not purely beneficial to everyone. Take Deadly Strikes for example. That set was exclusive to stamina and was balanced at 20% and competetively viable on certain builds (stamplar, stamDK). Then that set was nerfed to 18% and made to work on all types of damage, which would have broken the spreadsheet for magicka builds and now it is being nerfed further to 15% because now there is almost no drawback for magicka dps to run Deadly Strikes. However at 15% the set isn't worth considering anymore for stamplar because it is just too little.
    So hybridization efforts took a set that was exclusive to one group and instead of making it accessible to everyone, they simply gave it to the other group at the expense of the former. They should have just made a new set for everyone. That is how they should have gone about all of this. Why do old set now have to fit both if they were not created or meant for both? Exclusivity, and along with it, identity, are dead or dying due to these blanket changes.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Nerhesi
    Nerhesi
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    Well yes - exclusivity, class identity, etc - will die and continue to do so until the strategic direction understands that play the way you want is a bad design concept. It homogenizes builds, makes the meta super tight, removes counter meta and creates "fake" or "meaningless" choices, because the other choice become "traps" (aka you can make those choices, but they're universally bad decisions).

    Once that decision is made, you will find yourself back in the realm of meaningful classes/identity/roles ... no more DPS that can heal and sustain itself, no more tanks than can do damage and so on. But this also means significant changes (especially in PvP moreso than PvP) - and it requires a certain amount of will and determination to do so.

    I feel this has been done somewhat over the last year (changes in CPs, removing in build tankiness and sustain for all builds just because of your CP, making you sacrifice to be a glass canon) - but it still has a ways to go. Changes to skills in-line with proc sets, more meaningful options in CP rather than just double down on the 10% bonus damage/reduction ones.. etc..
  • BattleAxe
    BattleAxe
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    I bet my post late a little and somebody wrote something like that. Maybe 10 times or 100, but maybe if a few players will say it, ZOS will hear?

    Blackwood&Waking Flame created great meta. Yes, all people are playing Medusa+Bahsei, but depends on a situation or your playstyle can be useful a lot of: MS+Siro still working, mec.acuity, DW, warden can damage with ice/ice, stamina can run with staff. Its golden cross section of hybridization and diversity.

    Changes in sets,which will give same spd/wpd stats based on developer's wishes "bring to life the mantra of “play the way you want”".

    But in fact, current state of the game (hybrid stats of armor and the scaling damage from offensive stat)]already allows you to play with almost any builds.

    Quester who want to play a servant of Nocturnal with a staff&two blades, in a light armor with set which summons raven, already can close all vet content, and even most of the DLC HM dungeons.

    Do you think, that after this changes somebody in build like this will go to RG HM!? NO!

    But this changes will lead to complete erasure of difference between mana and stamina, just color of resource will be different, what's use of build anything, if all are same?

    Stamina players have the strongest sets in this game, so meta setups for stamina and mana will almost lose their difference! Above average players will be forced to close current hm and triple play in kinras / yokeda on any characters.
    Casuals can already play whatever they want, but these changes will kill the rest of the variety for those who play meta.

    Maybe you give chance this game and stop this changes?

    I must disagree on the concern here as with the hybridization sets are seeing a build as you mentioned light armor set and the unfathomable darkness set (summon ravens set) will actually be a lot stronger as yes the proc scales off your highest stats and now with giving both crit chance a mag build won’t be punished for wearing a stam set because now it will give spell crit and weapon crit. So likely will see a lot more of these builds come update going live. Now for killing variety in the meta honestly this hybridization is going to exponentially expand the meta for both mag and stam since now essentially all the popular meta dps sets can be worn by both mag and stam specs which will open up so many variations in the few builds out there.

    So in closing yes this is a significant change but one that will actually make this game truly feel like an elder scrolls game more so than it ever did before.
  • DepressiveCrab
    DepressiveCrab
    Soul Shriven
    BattleAxe wrote: »
    I must disagree on the concern here as with the hybridization sets are seeing a build as you mentioned light armor set and the unfathomable darkness set (summon ravens set) will actually be a lot stronge
    It was just example. Ofc it will be better, but it can be used even now for vet content.
    I want to say, that you already can play with all sets on middle content, but high-level content will never use it, cause it isnt best.
    BattleAxe wrote: »
    hybridization is going to exponentially expand the meta for both mag and stam since now essentially all the popular meta dps sets can be worn by both mag and stam specs which will open up so many variations in the few builds out there.
    No, if we speak about meta- it should be the best sets. And the most powerful sets created for stamina => its return us to my first post. Both resources have same meta sets.
    P.S. Sets, which can be used for closing vMA or DLC HM not meta, meta is sets, which you can see on triple RG on esologs.
    Edited by DepressiveCrab on October 14, 2021 4:58PM
  • BattleAxe
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    BattleAxe wrote: »
    I must disagree on the concern here as with the hybridization sets are seeing a build as you mentioned light armor set and the unfathomable darkness set (summon ravens set) will actually be a lot stronge
    It was just example. Ofc it will be better, but it can be used even now for vet content.
    I want to say, that you already can play with all sets on middle content, but high-level content will never use it, cause it isnt best.
    BattleAxe wrote: »
    hybridization is going to exponentially expand the meta for both mag and stam since now essentially all the popular meta dps sets can be worn by both mag and stam specs which will open up so many variations in the few builds out there.
    No, if we speak about meta- it should be the best sets. And the most powerful sets created for stamina => its return us to my first post. Both resources have same meta sets.
    P.S. Sets, which can be used for closing vMA or DLC HM not meta, meta is sets, which you can see on triple RG on esologs.

    Current Meta sets for mag are not the same as current meta sets for stam. Next patch is opening the door to say use the top meta set for mag with the top meta set for stam or any combination of mag and stam sets that people want to try so again the meta is exponentially expanding for both specs. Also a key note to remember with a meta is it is always subject to change with each new patch. And I’ll highlight again my one primary point with sets being hybridized to offer both weapon and spell dmg and crit now if your a stam running a mag set you will not be punished by losing out on crit chance or weapon damage. That is where the meta expanding comes into effect. Now you can have stam toons running something like Kinras and bahsei together since uptime on bahsei’s 5 piece will have a much higher uptime on stam due in no small part to stam specs having smaller mag pools and will more than likely have no mag record so the mag pool will likely be almost empty most of the length of encounters.
  • karekiz
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    I can still see Stam holding Rele as its own set. Which in itself is the best ST setup. Both the bonus Stamina + requirement of body is something to take into account. Light has resource bonus to be taken into account as well for stam.

    I can easily see Mag for instance stealing some Stam sets such as Tzo to replace Medusa, but they would still probably pair it with Siroria.

    Stam could in theory pair siroria on weapons/jewelry, but its doubtful they would ever bother run light on body.
    Edited by karekiz on October 14, 2021 11:13PM
  • DepressiveCrab
    DepressiveCrab
    Soul Shriven
    BattleAxe wrote: »
    That is where the meta expanding comes into effect. .
    In my opinion, it looks more like homogenization rather than hybridization. However, we just have different opinions on this, lets forget. Unfortunately for me, ZOS agree with you
    karekiz wrote: »
    I can easily see Mag for instance stealing some Stam sets such as Tzo to replace Medusa, but they would still probably pair it with Siroria.
    Mag will use Bahsei+Kinras/AY(can you imagine 8 kinras in raid meeeeeeeeh). For stam Im not sure, isnt my profile.
  • BattleAxe
    BattleAxe
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    BattleAxe wrote: »
    That is where the meta expanding comes into effect. .
    In my opinion, it looks more like homogenization rather than hybridization. However, we just have different opinions on this, lets forget. Unfortunately for me, ZOS agree with you
    karekiz wrote: »
    I can easily see Mag for instance stealing some Stam sets such as Tzo to replace Medusa, but they would still probably pair it with Siroria.
    Mag will use Bahsei+Kinras/AY(can you imagine 8 kinras in raid meeeeeeeeh). For stam Im not sure, isnt my profile.

    On some sets yes it will appear to be homogenization but overall majority of sets will be hybrid. Mind you this doesn’t account for armor passives which is another level to be discussed elsewhere.

    I won’t say for certain the meta is gonna completely change but with this set hybridization there is a lot of set combo experimentation that will need to be done to say for certain what is BIS for mag and what’s BIS for stam. This patch actually has a lot of potential when you look at it as a whole.
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