The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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125 vs 150
ZeroDPS
✭✭✭✭
Lets just vote!
125 vs 150 108 votes
125% crit damage cap is OK
49%
53 votes
140% crit damage cap is OK
5%
6 votes
150% crit damage cap is OK
34%
37 votes
other... in comments
11%
12 votes
0
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭other... in commentsI’m not even sure what goal is being achieved by placing a cap on this at all besides stifling creativity. Unless I’m mistaken, this will not stop people from building crit in PvE as we still are both, A) crit-starved, and B- left with a lack of better or even equal options to build for.Edited by Wuuffyy on September 20, 2021 8:12PMWuuffyy,
ESO player since 2014
-PM for questions5 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭150% crit damage cap is OK150 would have been much less restrictive. Don't think we'll see many cats around
3 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭125% crit damage cap is OKGrandchamp1989 wrote: »150 would have been much less restrictive. Don't think we'll see many cats around
Why would there be no cats? Light armor has always been popular in PvE because they could reach the pen cap easier, allowing everyone to focus on other areas of damage. Now Khajiit will be able to reach Crit Damage cap easier, allowing them to focus on other areas of damage. I would not be surprised to see light armor all-Khajiit groups become meta in PvE, so groups can reach pen cap and crit damage cap with fewer support sets.3 -
PrinceShroob✭✭✭✭✭Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
20% from Major Force
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Nightblade Hemorrhaging passive/10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive/10% from Warden's Glacial Presence passive (if the enemy has recently been Chilled)
That's an absolute -- though highly unlikely -- maximum of 205%.
Let's assume that Major Force and Minor Force, Backstabber, and Fighting Finesse are basic buffs. That's a minimum of 105%. Half the classes offer an additional 10% Critical Damage bonus, so 115%. Since the developers seem to want to hybridize builds, let's say that we'll take 10% from 5 pieces of Medium Armor, so 125%. The Harpooner's Wading Kilt is new and required purchasing Blackwood and Greymoor, so let's add its bonus -- 135%. Let's split the difference between Khajiit's Feline Ambush and the Shadow (let's assume that you wouldn't run Shadow if you were a Khajiit), adding 15%, making 150%. Notably, we have to include Feline Ambush and Dexterity together, since you could be a Khajiit in Medium Armor (we don't want to make it Khajiit or Shadow or Medium Armor).
A sensible cap on Critical Damage is 150%, since that doesn't leave Khajiit, stamina characters, or any particular class out in the cold. Unfortunately, this leaves out Minor Brittle, Elemental Catalyst, and Sul-Xan's Torment. One could make the argument that you could do Wading Kilt or Minor Brittle, since they both add 10%. The Kilt can't maintain stacks in certain trials, so Minor Brittle would be a reasonable alternative. Assuming that most magicka characters are wearing Bahsei's Torment and are running Thief, Elemental Catalyst could be considered to replace the Critical Damage bonus from using Medium Armor and losing Shadow.
A cap of 150% allows for meaningful build choices (if your run is primarily Khajiit you can drop Elemental Catalyst, for example) while still making one feel like most sources of Critical Damage are helpful and wanted and not being terribly thought-intensive.6 -
SaintSubwayy✭✭✭✭✭
✭140% crit damage cap is OK
this would just result in stacking Spelldamage instead and butcher build diversity to nearly 0.
Tha Critdmg cap is good, however 125% is a bit low imo.
Im not sure if you can count brittle and EC into the c alculation, since its not a buff on the player but rather a debuff on the enemy!
if thats the case, then we're at 150% already (125% player cap and 25% from Brittle and EC)
However imo the players max Critdmg cap should be arround 140% due to classes like NB having up to 20% (10% Passive and up to 10% from a fully stacked bowproc) from the class alone and khajiit also having 12% on race already.
With the base critdmg at 50% you'll exceed the cap pretty quickly or we need to dropp CP stars like Fithing finesse and / or Backstabber and maybe even Minor force.PC EU
vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vSS HM / vKA HM
Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Dawnbringer / Griphon Heart / Master Angler / Spirit Slayer2 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭other... in commentsA cap on critical damage is just BAD BAD BAD. Any cap.
1) Devs introduced many sets and abilities designed around this. If they didn't like people stacking crit dmg, wt_ would they release these sets? Many are relatively new additions, not older sets (EC, saxhleel, kilt, sul-xan, etc, etc). So did the devs have a change of heart in like the past week? That's what this feels like.
2) Hard caps are very confusing and unfriendly to new and even to more experienced players because unless you are part of the small minority like those of us here on this forum now, players have NO way of understanding this. It cannot be seen anywhere in the game's UI. ESO is absolutely terrible about making certain pieces of information about combat and builds impossible to find without major detective work outside of the game. This hidden cap would be yet another example.
3) Medium armor passives were just changed. This is a giant eff to stamina mains at a time when it is already hard to be end game and still cling to stam.
4) Think of the poor kitties.
Major disappoint.7 -
Phaedryn✭✭✭125% crit damage cap is OKIt's so easy to get well over 125% that people asking for 150% are, in essence, asking for no change. I run a Khajiit NB that has 147% now, without really trying (running Thief rather than Shadow, not using Wading Kilt or Barbed Trap, etc). Making it 150% pretty much means nothing to me. Pretty sure Zos want's a change that is actually a change...not just playing lip service to a cap that has no real impact.
That said, I am assuming that debuffs that increase the amount of critical damage taken (Minor Brittle) fall outside of the cap.Edited by Phaedryn on September 20, 2021 9:48PM1 -
CaffeinatedMayhem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭125% crit damage cap is OKSo, my Khajiit stamplar wearing Deadly and AY, tops out at 150% crit damage (with Horn and Trap). If he was wearing Hapooner's Wading kilt TOO, that would put him way over the new cap.
So basically (no math just estimating) Shadow or Khajiit+ kilt you'll probably be over with Horn and Trap. Otherwise, you're fine with JUST kilt or khajiit or shadow + horn and trap. Lots of ways to approach this and honestly, the only people *I* know using kilt+shadow+Khajiit are 1% PvE players. Or really squishy NBs in PvP...Edited by CaffeinatedMayhem on September 20, 2021 9:54PM1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭125% crit damage cap is OKMinor brittle is a debuff that increases critical damage taken by 10%
Once PTS is live can someone confirm if this is included in the critical damage done cap?2 -
Tigertron✭✭✭✭PrinceShroob wrote: »Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
20% from Major Force
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Nightblade Hemorrhaging passive/10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive/10% from Warden's Glacial Presence passive (if the enemy has recently been Chilled)
That's an absolute -- though highly unlikely -- maximum of 205%.
Let's assume that Major Force and Minor Force, Backstabber, and Fighting Finesse are basic buffs. That's a minimum of 105%. Half the classes offer an additional 10% Critical Damage bonus, so 115%. Since the developers seem to want to hybridize builds, let's say that we'll take 10% from 5 pieces of Medium Armor, so 125%. The Harpooner's Wading Kilt is new and required purchasing Blackwood and Greymoor, so let's add its bonus -- 135%. Let's split the difference between Khajiit's Feline Ambush and the Shadow (let's assume that you wouldn't run Shadow if you were a Khajiit), adding 15%, making 150%. Notably, we have to include Feline Ambush and Dexterity together, since you could be a Khajiit in Medium Armor (we don't want to make it Khajiit or Shadow or Medium Armor).
A sensible cap on Critical Damage is 150%, since that doesn't leave Khajiit, stamina characters, or any particular class out in the cold. Unfortunately, this leaves out Minor Brittle, Elemental Catalyst, and Sul-Xan's Torment. One could make the argument that you could do Wading Kilt or Minor Brittle, since they both add 10%. The Kilt can't maintain stacks in certain trials, so Minor Brittle would be a reasonable alternative. Assuming that most magicka characters are wearing Bahsei's Torment and are running Thief, Elemental Catalyst could be considered to replace the Critical Damage bonus from using Medium Armor and losing Shadow.
A cap of 150% allows for meaningful build choices (if your run is primarily Khajiit you can drop Elemental Catalyst, for example) while still making one feel like most sources of Critical Damage are helpful and wanted and not being terribly thought-intensive.
I don’t think they are additive.
0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭other... in commentsSaintSubwayy wrote: »
this would just result in stacking Spelldamage instead and butcher build diversity to nearly 0.
Tha Critdmg cap is good, however 125% is a bit low imo.
Im not sure if you can count brittle and EC into the c alculation, since its not a buff on the player but rather a debuff on the enemy!
if thats the case, then we're at 150% already (125% player cap and 25% from Brittle and EC)
However imo the players max Critdmg cap should be arround 140% due to classes like NB having up to 20% (10% Passive and up to 10% from a fully stacked bowproc) from the class alone and khajiit also having 12% on race already.
With the base critdmg at 50% you'll exceed the cap pretty quickly or we need to dropp CP stars like Fithing finesse and / or Backstabber and maybe even Minor force.
Yes but keep in mind these changes are because power creep is off the charts and crit has been massively overtuned for a long time. I think the goal is to reduce overall damage at the top end, not just making changes where you gain the same amount of damage but in other ways. Yes some people at the top end don't like the idea but the devs and most people and logically it is a good idea.0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭125% crit damage cap is OKSo I'm basing this off my current magsorc build.
This leaves me 8% under cap. If i go up to 6pc medium then I'm at cap. (assuming i'm keeping kilt as well)
Self - 85%
Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
10% from Minor Force
Group - 105%
20% from Major Force
Mundus
17% from Shadow with all divines
Gear - kilt - 117%
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
Class
10% from Nightblade Hemorrhaging passive/10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive/10% from Warden's Glacial Presence passive (if the enemy has recently been Chilled)
Racial
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
critical damage DEBUFF. not confirmed if theses are affected
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle0 -
muh✭✭✭PrinceShroob wrote: »Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
20% from Major Force
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Nightblade Hemorrhaging passive/10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive/10% from Warden's Glacial Presence passive (if the enemy has recently been Chilled)
That's an absolute -- though highly unlikely -- maximum of 205%.
Let's assume that Major Force and Minor Force, Backstabber, and Fighting Finesse are basic buffs. That's a minimum of 105%. Half the classes offer an additional 10% Critical Damage bonus, so 115%. Since the developers seem to want to hybridize builds, let's say that we'll take 10% from 5 pieces of Medium Armor, so 125%. The Harpooner's Wading Kilt is new and required purchasing Blackwood and Greymoor, so let's add its bonus -- 135%. Let's split the difference between Khajiit's Feline Ambush and the Shadow (let's assume that you wouldn't run Shadow if you were a Khajiit), adding 15%, making 150%. Notably, we have to include Feline Ambush and Dexterity together, since you could be a Khajiit in Medium Armor (we don't want to make it Khajiit or Shadow or Medium Armor).
A sensible cap on Critical Damage is 150%, since that doesn't leave Khajiit, stamina characters, or any particular class out in the cold. Unfortunately, this leaves out Minor Brittle, Elemental Catalyst, and Sul-Xan's Torment. One could make the argument that you could do Wading Kilt or Minor Brittle, since they both add 10%. The Kilt can't maintain stacks in certain trials, so Minor Brittle would be a reasonable alternative. Assuming that most magicka characters are wearing Bahsei's Torment and are running Thief, Elemental Catalyst could be considered to replace the Critical Damage bonus from using Medium Armor and losing Shadow.
A cap of 150% allows for meaningful build choices (if your run is primarily Khajiit you can drop Elemental Catalyst, for example) while still making one feel like most sources of Critical Damage are helpful and wanted and not being terribly thought-intensive.
I don’t think they are additive.
So far every source of critical damage, or critical damage taken has been additive.1 -
PrinceShroob✭✭✭✭✭I don’t think they are additive.
According to the character menu, Feline Ambush, Fighting Finesse, Dexterity, and Minor Force are additive. Presumably all increases in Critical Damage that affect the player are additive. Not entirely certain that Elemental Catalyst and Minor Brittle are additive, but if the others are, then they likely are, as well.
Note that the patch notes say "your Critical Strikes will not deal more than 125% damage or healing in total" which must be incorrect; a critical hit without any additional Critical Damage deals 50% more damage, meaning 150% damage, so I'm not entirely sure whether the restriction is just additional critical damage (in which case the cap is actually 175%, since it doesn't include the base 50%) or critical damage in total.
Edited by PrinceShroob on September 20, 2021 10:14PM0 -
Saucy_Jack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Moral of the story is that whatever stat gets changed - ever, in the entire game, for all eternity - the theorycrafters are going to run the numbers to determine the "best builds", which will then become the meta. There is no escaping it, because most players don't want to put in the time/effort/mats/gold to try out ten thousand gear combos.
The changes come, the majority of the playerbase lets the theorycrafters do their thing, then gear desirability and prices change accordingly, then more changes come, and the cycle repeats.
Oceans waves come in, ocean waves go out. People can either complain that the gear sandcastles they built keep being washed away, or they can remember it's a game and enjoy a metaphorical day at the beach.ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, KING OF THE RNG AND NIRN'S ONE TRUE GOD! Also, become a Scrub-scriber! SJ Scrubs: Playing games badly to make you feel better about yourself.3 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭125% crit damage cap is OKWaiting to see, last time I checked PTS was still down, but eh so far its not terrible.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭other... in commentsPrinceShroob wrote: »I don’t think they are additive.
According to the character menu, Feline Ambush, Fighting Finesse, Dexterity, and Minor Force are additive. Presumably all increases in Critical Damage that affect the player are additive. Not entirely certain that Elemental Catalyst and Minor Brittle are additive, but if the others are, then they likely are, as well.
Note that the patch notes say "your Critical Strikes will not deal more than 125% damage or healing in total" which must be incorrect; a critical hit without any additional Critical Damage deals 50% more damage, meaning 150% damage, so I'm not entirely sure whether the restriction is just additional critical damage (in which case the cap is actually 175%, since it doesn't include the base 50%) or critical damage in total.
If I understand correctly the damage isn't total but additive. So with 50% crit, if base damage is 100, crit is 50 so total 150. And I am pretty sure the 50% is included in the 125%, meaning to hit cap you need to add an extra 75%. NOT 50 + 125.0 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭150% crit damage cap is OKBase 50%
Medium Armor 14%
Khajiit 12%
Shadow in 7 divines: 17%
Major Force: 20%
Minor Force: 10%
Minor Brittle: 10%
Elemental Catalyst: 15%
Sul-Xan's Torment : 12%
Backstabber: 15%
Fighting Finesse: 10%
Harpooner's Wading Kilt: 10%
Nightblade/Templar passive: 10%
In a well-organized raid environment,
Khajiit Stamblade/Templar can reach upto 205% crit damage.
Khajiit Stam characters can reach upto 195%
Khajiit Mag characters can reach upto 181%
Non-khajiit Stam characters can reach upto 183%
Non-khajiit Mag characters can reach upto 169%
So 150% seems to be the right cap so that stam characters wont go over that easily. Even with 150% cap, all characters are getting nerfed.Edited by techprince on September 22, 2021 2:19AM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »150 would have been much less restrictive. Don't think we'll see many cats around
Why would there be no cats? Light armor has always been popular in PvE because they could reach the pen cap easier, allowing everyone to focus on other areas of damage. Now Khajiit will be able to reach Crit Damage cap easier, allowing them to focus on other areas of damage. I would not be surprised to see light armor all-Khajiit groups become meta in PvE, so groups can reach pen cap and crit damage cap with fewer support sets.
How I imagine this "all-khajiit meta" going down:
Edited by VaranisArano on September 20, 2021 11:09PM3 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »I’m not even sure what goal is being achieved by placing a cap on this at all besides stifling creativity. Unless I’m mistaken, this will not stop people from building crit in PvE as we still are both, A) crit-starved, and B- left with a lack of better or even equal options to build for.
This should have been combined with an increase to the "power budget" of other offensive bonuses such as Weapon/Spell Damage and, especially Max Stats (which still are yet to be compensated for their effective nerf of 30% from the transition to CP 2.0).
There should also be more in-game mechanisms to reward stacking those bonuses like there are for Stacking Critical Chance and Damage. For example, increase the Sorcerer passive from 2% Weapon/Spell Damage per class skill to incentivize them toward stacking it and then allow for more classes and specs to actually stack Max Magicka or Max Stamina. They could also create debuffs that, say, increase the Weapon/Spell Damage against a particular target by a percentage so it grew stronger with the more Weapon/Spell Damage that you had as a group.
Stacking Critical Damage got out of hand because it was easy to do in a group setting and because its rivals for damage output were criminally weak by way of comparison. We've sort of solved one problem but not so much the other.0 -
mzprx✭✭✭✭✭and just like that DK tanks will become obsolete overnight. i mean, you either gimp yourself for the majority of the fight by making 100% sure you are at least 15% below the cap so your DK tank can use the Warhorn every now-and-then, or you do not gimp yourself for the majority of the fight and get to the cap, in which case DK tanks can go home, as they have no other Ultimate to use that will do you any good..1 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭other... in commentsNo crit cap is needed. This is a pointless change that will only serve to restrict build diversity. This change effectively makes certain sets and even racials non-viable.3 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭125% crit damage cap is OKThe problem with this topic is that ppl dont bring up any argument why the cap is bad or to low.
The only thing ppl bring up over and over again is how easily the cap can be reached in a situation where an experienced high tier player runs with an experienced and optimized high tier vet trial group. That is not an argument. Not only is the remaining game (Arenas and Dungeons) completely ignored, it also ignores mid tier players and mid tier vet trial groups that are less organized.
If you want to bring up a propper argument against the cap or its value you have to prove that a crit focused build that uses the freed spots for other damage sources is actually weaker than a build thats not explicitely using crit at all. I think we all know how this try would turn out.1