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CP Alternatives to Crit Damage with Cap
Altyrann
✭✭✭✭✭
With the crit damage cap at 125% and current sources of crit damage, some class / race combinations will be left with some really suboptimal alternatives once the cap is reached (take a Khajiit stamina NB or Templar as an example).
To help with the variety this change is looking to promote, I'd suggest looking at the CP alternatives to Backstabber / Fighting Finesse. Specifically, why not make the Max Mag, Max Stam and WD/SD CP more powerful to bring them into line with alternatives.
Racial passives give a pretty good proxy for relative value. Khajiit and Altmer are fairly well balanced, so we can infer that 915 Mag + 12% Crit Damage = 2000 Mag + 258 SD, or to simplify:
12% crit damage = 1085 Mag + 258 SD, or using the 10.5:1 ratio, 12% crit damage = 361 SD
Right now, the CP options for SD give 150 or 165 SD depending on whether attacking only or all purpose. At around 30 SD per % crit damage, I'd suggest 300 SD / 3k ish Mag for the all purpose ones and 350-450 SD for the attacking only one (weighted depending on how much you want the relative conditions to impact).
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_Kevin
To help with the variety this change is looking to promote, I'd suggest looking at the CP alternatives to Backstabber / Fighting Finesse. Specifically, why not make the Max Mag, Max Stam and WD/SD CP more powerful to bring them into line with alternatives.
Racial passives give a pretty good proxy for relative value. Khajiit and Altmer are fairly well balanced, so we can infer that 915 Mag + 12% Crit Damage = 2000 Mag + 258 SD, or to simplify:
12% crit damage = 1085 Mag + 258 SD, or using the 10.5:1 ratio, 12% crit damage = 361 SD
Right now, the CP options for SD give 150 or 165 SD depending on whether attacking only or all purpose. At around 30 SD per % crit damage, I'd suggest 300 SD / 3k ish Mag for the all purpose ones and 350-450 SD for the attacking only one (weighted depending on how much you want the relative conditions to impact).
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_Kevin
5
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Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Would be nice if the slottable stars for spell damage and weapon damage weren't trash.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.10 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The weapon/spell dmg and ressource CP DEFINITELY needs a buff it they are to be realistic alternatives to backstabber and finesse.3 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree a lot of CP choices are bare bones. Its almost as if they rushed the entire system out the gate.2 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭The choices are particularly bad when your build skews heavily on way or the other on direct vs. DoT and ST vs. AoE as the second star then becomes virtually useless. At the extreme end (leaving aside still not understanding how Jabs is direct damage), Stamplar gets really good value from MaA and Biting Aura but would get very little from a buff to ST or DoT damage.0
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K9002✭✭✭✭✭There should be slottables for a large amount of penetration. CP 1.0 had perks for this, like Spell Erosion and Piercing. Spell Precision and Perfect strike used to be perks but they could be brought back as slottable stars as well. They offer exactly what medium armor is missing now. Though I do agree that that the weapon/spell damage stars should be much stronger.Edited by K9002 on September 20, 2021 8:19PM2 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭Would be nice if the slottable stars for spell damage and weapon damage weren't trash.
They have "efficiency standards" for assessing sets and skills etc., I can't believe they forgot to set standards for blue and red slottable CPs. After apparently 2 years in the making, CP2.0 still felt (and feels) like a rush job. It could urgently do with an overhaul to bring those slottables into line with the crit ones. (And no I don't mean nerf the crit ones, I mean buff the others so they're viable alternatives!)2 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Since there seems to be no change to the max mag / stam or WD/SD stars to make them useful up to 7.2.4 where do we end up?
- Fully optimised groups start from a base of 105% (Base 50%, 30% Major / Minor Force, 15% EC, 10% Brittle)
- Using Kilt takes you to 115% (this still looks to be stronger than any alternative gear options on good fights for it)
- If you are any of the following: Medium Armour wearer, Nightblade, Templar, Khajiit, you will hit or exceed the cap. If you are more than one of these, you will be wasting substantial crit damage
- If you are any of the things above you will get no value from crit damage CP so will be forced to take the weaker CP from the direct / DoT and ST / AoE CP pairs for your build, or very suboptimal max stat / WD / SD CPs0 -
RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭I may be missing something but in an optimised group that you know you will have to take a different CP or go over cap isn't it just more damage, even if it's not perfect? If you are on a Khajiit NB don't wear kilt, don't slot backstabber and wear a monster set or 2 1 piece crit instead. Even if not perfect it should still be more damage because you get to slot CPs that others can't because you are all at the same crit cap.0
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RandomKodiak wrote: »I may be missing something but in an optimised group that you know you will have to take a different CP or go over cap isn't it just more damage, even if it's not perfect? If you are on a Khajiit NB don't wear kilt, don't slot backstabber and wear a monster set or 2 1 piece crit instead. Even if not perfect it should still be more damage because you get to slot CPs that others can't because you are all at the same crit cap.
This leaves the racial passives you don’t get by going khajiit out of the picture. I didnt calculate it through but the question is if the new cp alternatives make up for those in any given raid setting.0 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭The challenge is finding good alternative CPs. Essentially the two crit damage ones are solid and then generally you have to choose some combination of the two paired CPs (ST/AoE and Direct/DoT). If your setup is heavily skewed in one direction on either of those pairings, then one of the two will be strong, while the other becomes worth less and less. Given the relative weakness of the SD/WD ones (see first post) this means that those hitting the cap without CP will likely be forced to take subpar 4th or even 3rd CP.
Easiest example would be Khajiit Stamplar using medium armour. They would get (in an optimised group):
- 50% Base
- 30% Major/Minor Force
- 15% EC
- 14% Medium
- 12% Khajiit
- 10% Brittle
- 10% Templar
That's 141% before Kilt or CP, so already 16% they get no value from, plus they will have to take a subpar gear option in place of Kilt and then potentially two subpar CPs (Jabs heavy Stamplar skews quite a bit to AoE and Direct so the ST and DoT stars are far less strong).0 -
NerfSeige✭✭✭✭No, we don’t need that. It’s a meta shift and I don’t see why furries needs to be on par, you either race change or keep a lower damage race
-sincerely yours, breton BiSAvid reader of wes’-pts-diary[RIP]
NerfAS and Shill ruins everything
Skinny-meta-fake, graded D, and can’t explain the law of diminishing marginal returns.
I won’t post that Wes, I’ll get [snipped] for the last time
Revert this patch - Audens, 20220 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭No, we don’t need that. It’s a meta shift and I don’t see why furries needs to be on par, you either race change or keep a lower damage race
-sincerely yours, breton BiS
Different races getting more or less powerful is normal and expected, but getting to a stage where the main racial skill becomes completely worthless for a subset of players feel entirely counter to the pretty good progress over the last few patches getting racials fairlywell balanced.0 -
NerfSeige✭✭✭✭No, we don’t need that. It’s a meta shift and I don’t see why furries needs to be on par, you either race change or keep a lower damage race
-sincerely yours, breton BiS
Different races getting more or less powerful is normal and expected, but getting to a stage where the main racial skill becomes completely worthless for a subset of players feel entirely counter to the pretty good progress over the last few patches getting racials fairlywell balanced.
That subset is only the top PVE DDs in organized trials groups, a very very small subset and doesn't really merit a racial change.
Those people will buy race change tokens anyway to push top dps and normies will just cope like Breton mains.Avid reader of wes’-pts-diary[RIP]
NerfAS and Shill ruins everything
Skinny-meta-fake, graded D, and can’t explain the law of diminishing marginal returns.
I won’t post that Wes, I’ll get [snipped] for the last time
Revert this patch - Audens, 20221 -
Rebiludo✭✭✭- 50% Base
- 30% Major/Minor Force
- 15% EC
- 14% Medium
- 12% Khajiit
- 10% Brittle.
-10% NB
- 5% grim focus
- 25% CP
= 171% - 50% [Malacath] = 121%.
Crit cap, CP, racial and class passive are all fine
Édit : 116%. Grim focus now give WD SDEdited by Rebiludo on October 26, 2021 4:56PM0 -
Tigertron✭✭✭✭Mundus is an easy way to slide around big chunks of stats. Which is why it should be part of the Armory system. My new build is based on crit damage passives and will swap mundus for group or solo. It works well on PTS so I'll test it out on live with a real group next week.0
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Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭
Interesting idea. Plugging it into UESP it comes out a little behind swapping race to Dunmer and using Kilt, but not by a very long way.0 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Oops, never mind. Further behind than it looked initially. Looks like giving up too much in return for the 16% from Malacath.0
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Grim focus was 2% crit damage per stage.
That was changed to 1% damage, and then to 60 spell/weapon damage which gives you an idea of where ZoS feel spell damage vs damage % vs crit damage % equate.
This means fighting finesse 10% crit damage should be equivalent to 300 spell damage, meaning the spell damage CP is half as good as it should be.
Either that or NB's got a massive buff to grim focus.3 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Grim focus was 2% crit damage per stage.
That was changed to 1% damage, and then to 60 spell/weapon damage which gives you an idea of where ZoS feel spell damage vs damage % vs crit damage % equate.
This means fighting finesse 10% crit damage should be equivalent to 300 spell damage, meaning the spell damage CP is half as good as it should be.
Either that or NB's got a massive buff to grim focus.
Exactly this. If the SD CP was competitive then you could mitigate most of the annoyance for the more impacted class / race options with reallocation of CP. As it stands though, you end up scraping the barrel a bit, in addition to being over the cap before you even consider anything discretionary.1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The challenge is finding good alternative CPs. Essentially the two crit damage ones are solid and then generally you have to choose some combination of the two paired CPs (ST/AoE and Direct/DoT). If your setup is heavily skewed in one direction on either of those pairings, then one of the two will be strong, while the other becomes worth less and less. Given the relative weakness of the SD/WD ones (see first post) this means that those hitting the cap without CP will likely be forced to take subpar 4th or even 3rd CP.
Easiest example would be Khajiit Stamplar using medium armour. They would get (in an optimised group):
- 50% Base
- 30% Major/Minor Force
- 15% EC
- 14% Medium
- 12% Khajiit
- 10% Brittle
- 10% Templar
That's 141% before Kilt or CP, so already 16% they get no value from, plus they will have to take a subpar gear option in place of Kilt and then potentially two subpar CPs (Jabs heavy Stamplar skews quite a bit to AoE and Direct so the ST and DoT stars are far less strong).
Can you be a little more honest about this? It's like you're not even trying to make a build that works.
Minor force is always provided by you, so it's an easy one to cut.
You don't have to run 7pc medium, you'll be better off using some light armour to hit pen cap, but whatever.
Most groups won't be running EC except as a replacement for backstabber.
Let's throw some quick theory craft around shall we?
- 50% Base
- 20% Major Force
- 14% Medium
- 12% Khajiit
- 10% Brittle
- 10% Templar
- 10% Fighting Finesse
126%
Looks pretty reasonable to me. So drop minor force and you're good to go on literally the worst case build. Now lets say you're a thinking cat and you decide running bah-sei is a good time, using ritual to keep your mag low, upping your pen and crit chance, 1pc slimecraw and 1pc crit, 7 light. With a few mag skills in your rotation you shouldn't have any issues with sustain even if you're not in 7m.
Slot backstabber or if the group really wants EC and you're at 127%. being 2% over cap when major force is up isn't a big deal.1 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭The challenge is finding good alternative CPs. Essentially the two crit damage ones are solid and then generally you have to choose some combination of the two paired CPs (ST/AoE and Direct/DoT). If your setup is heavily skewed in one direction on either of those pairings, then one of the two will be strong, while the other becomes worth less and less. Given the relative weakness of the SD/WD ones (see first post) this means that those hitting the cap without CP will likely be forced to take subpar 4th or even 3rd CP.
Easiest example would be Khajiit Stamplar using medium armour. They would get (in an optimised group):
- 50% Base
- 30% Major/Minor Force
- 15% EC
- 14% Medium
- 12% Khajiit
- 10% Brittle
- 10% Templar
That's 141% before Kilt or CP, so already 16% they get no value from, plus they will have to take a subpar gear option in place of Kilt and then potentially two subpar CPs (Jabs heavy Stamplar skews quite a bit to AoE and Direct so the ST and DoT stars are far less strong).
Can you be a little more honest about this? It's like you're not even trying to make a build that works.
Minor force is always provided by you, so it's an easy one to cut.
You don't have to run 7pc medium, you'll be better off using some light armour to hit pen cap, but whatever.
Most groups won't be running EC except as a replacement for backstabber.
Let's throw some quick theory craft around shall we?
- 50% Base
- 20% Major Force
- 14% Medium
- 12% Khajiit
- 10% Brittle
- 10% Templar
- 10% Fighting Finesse
126%
Looks pretty reasonable to me. So drop minor force and you're good to go on literally the worst case build. Now lets say you're a thinking cat and you decide running bah-sei is a good time, using ritual to keep your mag low, upping your pen and crit chance, 1pc slimecraw and 1pc crit, 7 light. With a few mag skills in your rotation you shouldn't have any issues with sustain even if you're not in 7m.
Slot backstabber or if the group really wants EC and you're at 127%. being 2% over cap when major force is up isn't a big deal.
Minor Force is basically free given the damage it does and EC is run in optimises groups. It is absolutely possible to stay under the cap in unoptimised groups, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
Assuming you want to push tough content where your group is looking to maximise DPS, the current cap combined with built in passives hits some specific combinations rather hard.0 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Also note that I didn't even include Kilt, which would typically again be used for optimised damage and add another 10%.0
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're confusing optimised group with the current meta. The current meta is to stack as much crit damage as possible.
If EC isn't helping, it'll be dropped for something else. That's what it means to be an optimised group. It's looking likely that dropping backstabber for EC is optimal next patch. *shrug* will wait and see.
If you're getting minor force for "free" because trap damage is really good, then it really is just swapping FF for another damage CP.
You're going to lose DPS this patch. Everyone is. That's the intent of a crit damage cap.
Will you lose dps relative to other builds is the question you should be focusing on and that's too dependant on what you end up running and what content you're doing and what your group wants to bring.
Ultimately your stamplar khajiit might not be the best setup for PvE trials, but then it's not exactly BiS on live right now so ...1 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭You're confusing optimised group with the current meta. The current meta is to stack as much crit damage as possible.
If EC isn't helping, it'll be dropped for something else. That's what it means to be an optimised group. It's looking likely that dropping backstabber for EC is optimal next patch. *shrug* will wait and see.
If you're getting minor force for "free" because trap damage is really good, then it really is just swapping FF for another damage CP.
You're going to lose DPS this patch. Everyone is. That's the intent of a crit damage cap.
Will you lose dps relative to other builds is the question you should be focusing on and that's too dependant on what you end up running and what content you're doing and what your group wants to bring.
Ultimately your stamplar khajiit might not be the best setup for PvE trials, but then it's not exactly BiS on live right now so ...
Because the level of "built in" crit damage is so variable by class and role, EC could still be entirely helpful for most people in a group, so you end up either with micromanagement of the cap which either isn't optimal for most of the group or means some of the group are wasting crit damage over cap / unable to take best CPs / use Kilt etc.
I'm not against the cap in and of itself, nor against keeping damage output sane, but think the current cap value and level of built in crit damage for some specific combinations means some will be left with pretty poor choices available.0 -
HalfDragoness✭✭✭It's probably been said before but one way to look at the problem of balancing crits might be to do a universal lowering of crit chance (so that it's much harder to sit on a 50% crit chance). Then when slotting stars you're making a more meaningful choice between consistantly high damage, or damage that's alright, but with really good occasional crit damage.
There might need to be an overall raising of spell and weapon damage to balance this a bit.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've been doing a lot of testing on XB on my cat stamblade as we get close to patch.
I really really really really don't want to run Caluurions. I hate the idea of a proc killing for me. So I decided to push weapon and pen.
I had 100% uptime 8k damage 14k pen. Couldn't bring anyone down that was over 24k health. Tried 7.6k damage and 18k pen. Same. I'd hit them with my usual rotation and they'd survive long enough that I'd just run out of stamina.
Why? Because the burst damage isn't enough to cut through their defenses. Players have become heartier and heartier.
We needed crit damage with high crit % (which is now impossible to have) or Mechanical to successfully compete. Now that's gone, which I'm totally okay with because mechanical made things a little too easy. Unfortunately there's not much in the way of an alternative.
I'd love it if I could just run straight damage and pen like I could in past patches.I drink and I stream things.
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