I assume it will balanced in theory for a raid team stacking kilt + EC + Horn + Brittle + Khajiit basically. One of those things will be replaced. Assuming Kilt is usable in the fight that is, you would probably drop off EC or Brittle.

Edit: Also it could be you can in theory just drop Minor Force entirely from your build since a support set puts you at cap.

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

I am just tired of the constant changes of focus in this game. Change fatigue is a thing and it's getting to the point that you might as well just quit. They make these changes often with the equivalent or axes and sledge hammers when they should be using a mallet and chisel. This far into the games development they should be making small changes to everything not sweeping ones. Adding more content instead of balancing builds.

My request to zos is that if they are going to make any more sweeping balancing changes is that they get it done and get it done between this patch and the next one. Then don't touch the system for a year. Spend that year reinforcing the servers and coming up with a way to bring life back to pvp and pve.

I completely agree with this sentiment as well as with what pklemming was saying. I'm all for change but believe that meaningful change takes time and at least ideally should be a slow process. For those of you who are into history, sometimes the right thing to do is to stop moving forward, as the Roman Empire learned at some point, with all the problems that came from it over extending its borders. Its a hard lesson though and goes against human nature I think hah.

This particular topic is kind of close to me as I've dealt with these kinds of builds alot, ran with many great people who used them and helped teach them, to a lesser extent build them, for others as well. Teams I've been on have accomplished quite a bit together. Why ruin a good thing? Especially because this is one of the parts of the game the community itself, not just me, seems to have down to a science and it performs well for PvE content.

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Look crit caps are a long time coming. And it’s probably a good thing.
1) no more wasted slots of Barbed Trap or Inner Light
2) Useage of other sets that can take place of Crit Sets
3) Git good. Bout time for a change where actual SKILL is used and not just stacking Crit to do the work for ya

Really…what is the big deal? The worst thing I see is my farming of Mothers Sorriw pieces to sell might not be needed anymore

You are right CAPs are a step in the right direction and really only way to regain control of ingenious people who min/max everything to keep it within a certain bounds. Although I would say it would be more benefit overall to CAP crit CHANCE before crit damage. Crit chance should never be more than 50% and I think they should add a Crit MISS possibility which would do something like discharge your weapon.

Merforum wrote: »

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Look crit caps are a long time coming. And it’s probably a good thing.
1) no more wasted slots of Barbed Trap or Inner Light
2) Useage of other sets that can take place of Crit Sets
3) Git good. Bout time for a change where actual SKILL is used and not just stacking Crit to do the work for ya

Really…what is the big deal? The worst thing I see is my farming of Mothers Sorriw pieces to sell might not be needed anymore

You are right CAPs are a step in the right direction and really only way to regain control of ingenious people who min/max everything to keep it within a certain bounds. Although I would say it would be more benefit overall to CAP crit CHANCE before crit damage. Crit chance should never be more than 50% and I think they should add a Crit MISS possibility which would do something like discharge your weapon.

Try 60. 60 is the sweet spot, 50 will work. Anything below 50 is wrong, anything higher than perhaps 70 is too much. Remember Crit Chance (Crit %) must be equivalent to Crit Dmg. I remember couple years back we had a fella walk into PvP talking about how he had the Shadow Mundus and 70% Crit Dmg... then someone asked what his Crit% was... it was 15%.

See... if you understand how these numbers work u can say "well, I"ll set the build at 60 Crit% and then go focus on another dmg type". So we're already doing what ZOS is suggesting... as a solution... for years now anyways. But with that said, getting 60 right now is HARD and requires certain things... which is stressful, denies others the ability to use in their builds without being forced to farm for rare oddities. This is what I don't understand. In the before time, before this new CP and Crit% was reduced in various ways, you could have a more diversified dmg or healing build. But now however they've tied down the avenues for raising Crit% so much that its hardly possible to reach 60% without sacrificing other things that could also be a part of things and you must use only a few specific sets including precise on your weapon(s).

So I quite honestly don't understand how ZOS can say that we need to cap Crit Dmg... when those of us who understand how Crits actually work, already know that Crit Dmg has been capped 'implicity' due to them artificially lowering the source of Crit %... and then they turn around and say "we'll cap Crit Dmg and then use something else..." which we already did... but can no longer do... because you guys lowered the Crit%, which has lowered Crit Dmg/Heals by default and obstructs the build from incorporating 'other source of dmg' because we are forced to focus so hard on getting Crit % to be a respectable value. Make sense?

This is the crux of the matter and it affects alot of people in various ways, not just about me and what I think but regardless this is the heart of it. Show of hands... who wants to try and walk thru vDSA or vHRC with DPS sources that predominately come from just raw dmg, excessive use of pen and poorly instituted Crits that have been watered down in unnecessary caps and red tape? You'll never get thru it or if you do, gonna be there for very long time, same with the 'healer'. It will become the very definition of misery and PvE Trial groups who are a major source of relief to those new or casual players just trying to make it thru these tough runs (which they cannot do themselves and neither can a pug group, or barely can I should say), may even eventually decide to leave the game because of these inconsistent changes which make their job more difficult than it already has become thru previous changes.

Anyways, thanks again for listening everyone I'm on the way out the door and hopefully things will turn out well at least with this situation. Please allow me to give an early 'Happy Holidays' to everyone as well because due to work and family projects I won't be able to return to the game anytime soon. Best wishes everyone, ~Naga.

Nagastani wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Look crit caps are a long time coming. And it’s probably a good thing.
1) no more wasted slots of Barbed Trap or Inner Light
2) Useage of other sets that can take place of Crit Sets
3) Git good. Bout time for a change where actual SKILL is used and not just stacking Crit to do the work for ya

Really…what is the big deal? The worst thing I see is my farming of Mothers Sorriw pieces to sell might not be needed anymore

You are right CAPs are a step in the right direction and really only way to regain control of ingenious people who min/max everything to keep it within a certain bounds. Although I would say it would be more benefit overall to CAP crit CHANCE before crit damage. Crit chance should never be more than 50% and I think they should add a Crit MISS possibility which would do something like discharge your weapon.

Try 60. 60 is the sweet spot, 50 will work. Anything below 50 is wrong, anything higher than perhaps 70 is too much. Remember Crit Chance (Crit %) must be equivalent to Crit Dmg. I remember couple years back we had a fella walk into PvP talking about how he had the Shadow Mundus and 70% Crit Dmg... then someone asked what his Crit% was... it was 15%.

See... if you understand how these numbers work u can say "well, I"ll set the build at 60 Crit% and then go focus on another dmg type". So we're already doing what ZOS is suggesting... as a solution... for years now anyways. But with that said, getting 60 right now is HARD and requires certain things... which is stressful, denies others the ability to use in their builds without being forced to farm for rare oddities. This is what I don't understand. In the before time, before this new CP and Crit% was reduced in various ways, you could have a more diversified dmg or healing build. But now however they've tied down the avenues for raising Crit% so much that its hardly possible to reach 60% without sacrificing other things that could also be a part of things and you must use only a few specific sets including precise on your weapon(s).

So I quite honestly don't understand how ZOS can say that we need to cap Crit Dmg... when those of us who understand how Crits actually work, already know that Crit Dmg has been capped 'implicity' due to them artificially lowering the source of Crit %... and then they turn around and say "we'll cap Crit Dmg and then use something else..." which we already did... but can no longer do... because you guys lowered the Crit%, which has lowered Crit Dmg/Heals by default and obstructs the build from incorporating 'other source of dmg' because we are forced to focus so hard on getting Crit % to be a respectable value. Make sense?

This is the crux of the matter and it affects alot of people in various ways, not just about me and what I think but regardless this is the heart of it. Show of hands... who wants to try and walk thru vDSA or vHRC with DPS sources that predominately come from just raw dmg, excessive use of pen and poorly instituted Crits that have been watered down in unnecessary caps and red tape? You'll never get thru it or if you do, gonna be there for very long time, same with the 'healer'. It will become the very definition of misery and PvE Trial groups who are a major source of relief to those new or casual players just trying to make it thru these tough runs (which they cannot do themselves and neither can a pug group, or barely can I should say), may even eventually decide to leave the game because of these inconsistent changes which make their job more difficult than it already has become thru previous changes.

Anyways, thanks again for listening everyone I'm on the way out the door and hopefully things will turn out well at least with this situation. Please allow me to give an early 'Happy Holidays' to everyone as well because due to work and family projects I won't be able to return to the game anytime soon. Best wishes everyone, ~Naga.

Yeah, I think the biggest problem now is ZOS allowed crit chance to go to 100% for so long that it is now hard to try to reign it back in. I don't know the number, do you know what percentage of total damage is crit damage on a maxed out toon. I agree the 50-60% is a good compromise given where we are at now however most games start with an extremely low crit chance like 5-10% but with a very good bonus like 2X, 3X or 4X on the damage.

BTW I agree with what you are saying that ZOS reducing crit chance only made people find other ways to increase it, even if you have to do it at the expense of other things but that's how it is supposed to be, right? I think CAPS are a much better way to accomplish this though, because you could have hit the cap faster with original values without sacrificing so much. Because tweaking 100s of variables without having any cap, only creates a lot of test and finding ways around. Caps literally eliminate the need to worry about tweaking every little thing.

I think ZOS knows they have created a massive amount of power creep at the high end and has been making hardmodes harder and harder, rather than toning down damage. I know people like to say 'oh there is a super hardmode so reducing player damage can't happen' but pretend like they don't know that obviously whenever ZOS finds the right level for high end player damage, they will also reduce damage requirements on hard modes so people can actually do them.

Nagastani wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Look crit caps are a long time coming. And it’s probably a good thing.
1) no more wasted slots of Barbed Trap or Inner Light
2) Useage of other sets that can take place of Crit Sets
3) Git good. Bout time for a change where actual SKILL is used and not just stacking Crit to do the work for ya

Really…what is the big deal? The worst thing I see is my farming of Mothers Sorriw pieces to sell might not be needed anymore

You are right CAPs are a step in the right direction and really only way to regain control of ingenious people who min/max everything to keep it within a certain bounds. Although I would say it would be more benefit overall to CAP crit CHANCE before crit damage. Crit chance should never be more than 50% and I think they should add a Crit MISS possibility which would do something like discharge your weapon.

Try 60. 60 is the sweet spot, 50 will work. Anything below 50 is wrong, anything higher than perhaps 70 is too much. Remember Crit Chance (Crit %) must be equivalent to Crit Dmg. I remember couple years back we had a fella walk into PvP talking about how he had the Shadow Mundus and 70% Crit Dmg... then someone asked what his Crit% was... it was 15%.

See... if you understand how these numbers work u can say "well, I"ll set the build at 60 Crit% and then go focus on another dmg type". So we're already doing what ZOS is suggesting... as a solution... for years now anyways. But with that said, getting 60 right now is HARD and requires certain things... which is stressful, denies others the ability to use in their builds without being forced to farm for rare oddities. This is what I don't understand. In the before time, before this new CP and Crit% was reduced in various ways, you could have a more diversified dmg or healing build. But now however they've tied down the avenues for raising Crit% so much that its hardly possible to reach 60% without sacrificing other things that could also be a part of things and you must use only a few specific sets including precise on your weapon(s).

So I quite honestly don't understand how ZOS can say that we need to cap Crit Dmg... when those of us who understand how Crits actually work, already know that Crit Dmg has been capped 'implicity' due to them artificially lowering the source of Crit %... and then they turn around and say "we'll cap Crit Dmg and then use something else..." which we already did... but can no longer do... because you guys lowered the Crit%, which has lowered Crit Dmg/Heals by default and obstructs the build from incorporating 'other source of dmg' because we are forced to focus so hard on getting Crit % to be a respectable value. Make sense?

This is the crux of the matter and it affects alot of people in various ways, not just about me and what I think but regardless this is the heart of it. Show of hands... who wants to try and walk thru vDSA or vHRC with DPS sources that predominately come from just raw dmg, excessive use of pen and poorly instituted Crits that have been watered down in unnecessary caps and red tape? You'll never get thru it or if you do, gonna be there for very long time, same with the 'healer'. It will become the very definition of misery and PvE Trial groups who are a major source of relief to those new or casual players just trying to make it thru these tough runs (which they cannot do themselves and neither can a pug group, or barely can I should say), may even eventually decide to leave the game because of these inconsistent changes which make their job more difficult than it already has become thru previous changes.

Anyways, thanks again for listening everyone I'm on the way out the door and hopefully things will turn out well at least with this situation. Please allow me to give an early 'Happy Holidays' to everyone as well because due to work and family projects I won't be able to return to the game anytime soon. Best wishes everyone, ~Naga.

Yeah, I think the biggest problem now is ZOS allowed crit chance to go to 100% for so long that it is now hard to try to reign it back in. I don't know the number, do you know what percentage of total damage is crit damage on a maxed out toon. I agree the 50-60% is a good compromise given where we are at now however most games start with an extremely low crit chance like 5-10% but with a very good bonus like 2X, 3X or 4X on the damage.

BTW I agree with what you are saying that ZOS reducing crit chance only made people find other ways to increase it, even if you have to do it at the expense of other things but that's how it is supposed to be, right? I think CAPS are a much better way to accomplish this though, because you could have hit the cap faster with original values without sacrificing so much. Because tweaking 100s of variables without having any cap, only creates a lot of test and finding ways around. Caps literally eliminate the need to worry about tweaking every little thing.

I think ZOS knows they have created a massive amount of power creep at the high end and has been making hardmodes harder and harder, rather than toning down damage. I know people like to say 'oh there is a super hardmode so reducing player damage can't happen' but pretend like they don't know that obviously whenever ZOS finds the right level for high end player damage, they will also reduce damage requirements on hard modes so people can actually do them.

Well Crits are just bonus dmg, I would think the actual amount would be subjective depending on the effectiveness of your rotations. So anyone with 60k-100k+ in total dmg is going to be in a totally different ball park than your casual DPS (with some kind of rotation) who probably runs around 30k - 40k.

And that's just it... your rotations and getting things to work for you, is always a work in progress that the player themselves can improve over time. Because one day if they try hard enough 30k to 40k folks can turn 60k+. And so that's why I find it challenging to understand why the need for Crit Caps when they've already directly nerfed Crit builds, (indirectly nerfing Crit Dmg) and now people are already well ahead of the game, fine tuning their rotations, including the skills that go along with those rotations, including other source of damage and working tirelessly to find ways to improve their damage potential. In other words, people have adapted to what is, the community is moving forward and doing so in the manner ZOS is saying that we need to move forward... but not until after -they- cap crits. But it's like we're already their now... no Cap is necessary. It feels like we're being rounded up and drug backwards.

Anyways, with that said, everyone does not walk into vDSA with over 100k+ So if they get heavy-handed with this, the players already maxing out dmg... will continue to do Annnnd everyone else will see their Total Dmg reduced, which is going to be more problematic for them because the casuals dmg pool will get painfully cut and the pro's will either adapt or because they're so far ahead it will just take a little longer to clear. I truly believe this is something that while aimed at the elites will ultimately end up being problematic for those just trying to clear content and play the game .

I was wondering what the PERCENT crit damage is to base damage so whether it is 100K DPS or 20K the percent should be the same. For instance if crit chance is 50% and crit damage is 200% then crit damage would average as 100% of normal damage. Meaning double. BTW this is only an example in reality I have seen builds that are way more than that, like 90% chance with 250% damage, which is 225% more than base damage (ie 20K base + 45K crit). And that is way too high which is the problem ZOS has I think. BTW I don't think casual players get anywhere near these levels so I don't think a cap would affect them hardly at all, but on the high end it could be a big decrease, which is warranted IMO. But every mag toon literally just using MS as second 5 piece because it beats everything else doesn't take too much thinking and I think ZOS knows that.

Probably 50% chance with 100% damage bonus would be good to start that would average 50% increase in overall damage (if normally you do 20K + 10K = 30K or if you do 60K + 30K = 90K) (which as you point out is bonus or FREE damage essentially, like proc sets but easier to proc and higher output). Or they can make 25% chance with 200% dmg, which will be same overall 50% increase. Even 5% chance with 1000% dmg works to give 50% increase. One thing for sure 100-225% increase never should have existed.

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Imho ZOS dont have to change meta every time, they need to sit down take pen and paper, do math and create second, third meta build for both mag and stam, thats it, more choice we have in meta more fun and interesting the game is!

Honestly, it isn't ZOS that makes the meta, it is the players that make the meta.

Huh?

The meta is just the most effective/efficient tactic available.

So when players look for the combination that gets them the highest DPS, it's the Devs who control all the aspects that go into that DPS. The Devs control the skills, the stats, the sets. When players theorycraft, it's just figuring out the optimal combinations of what the Devs have put in the game.

And so when the Devs see there's power creep - as the Devs see here - that power creep happened because the Devs added stuff to the game that introduced more power creep that players used as the meta. When the Devs nerf crit damage because they feel the stat is overemphasized, they are redirecting the meta to other stats in a direction they prefer.

The Devs control everything that makes something meta. It's just whatever is most effective/efficient. The Devs, not players, control how powerful each set, stat, and skill is compared to everything else.

Yes, the devs to control what is available and obviously adjust that constantly. However, the devs are not the experts on how to play this game well. It is the players who figure that out and in doing so they determine what the meta is.

Basically, if the devs were the experts at playing the game it would seem that we would not see such changes that so often change our builds. This is not knocking those who work for Zenimax as this is the same across every MMORPG.


Adding here. Zenimax does not like the current meta. They think it does not much damage. So they change things up. The players determine a new meta and we seem to have a rinse and repeated considering how often things get changed.

So, it's not necessarily that ZOS doesn't like "the current meta" or that they don't know what they are doing. Rather, lots of players would rather ignore that ZOS knows exactly what they are doing with these constant changes each update: they are using horizontal progression to prevent ESO from stagnating.

MMOs can't afford to be stagnant. Stagnation leads to bored players, who move on to other games. Instead, constant changes to the meta in the form of Horizontal Progression keep the "balance' from stagnating and becoming boring. Add in the need for ZOS to keep power creep under control, and that explains a fair bit of the nerfs and changes.

So when ZOS says they don't like the current meta, it's more like "Right, players have been doing [X] for so long that it's getting boring. We can't let players get bored and leave for other games. Time to shake the snow globe and make the landscape look "fresh." They shake the snowglobe in small ways or large ways in pretty much every update.

Players seeing the freshly shaken landscape are not "making the new meta." ZOS did the shaking. Players are just noting what the new landscape looks like.

Or to be blunt, if the meta shifts away from critical damage, who's fault is that? The players who notice that critical damage stacking is less effective than it used to be? Or the Devs, who made critical damage stacking effective in the first place, and then chose to cap it?

"Fault" isn't quite the right word, but the buck stops with the Devs. They shook the snowglobe. They bear the responsibility for the new landscape.

We can split hairs about Zos not liking "the current meta" but Gilliam clearly stated they are not pleased with how we are building our characters as far as crit goes and that is pretty much the meta and has been for awhile.

I am not sure the direction you are going with this as the post seems to make a few different points. I think you are suggesting Zenimax is making this change, making changes so regularly, just because they can. That they actually want us to have to rework our builds and farm new gear all over again just because they can. That may be the case but I think it has more to do with the are either not getting the impact they desire which is why they keep hitting crit in one way or another or they are truly challenged figuring out how to balance aspects of the game.

I see ESO combat as a very complex design compared to most major MMORPG titles as we have access to a greater variety of tools and this alone probably makes things more complicated.

Regardless, in the end, Zenimax does affect our builds but it is the player that figures out the new meta and Zenimax does not really know what it will be. Sure, they may guess but they do not have anyone putting in the time to test out possibilities. d

Anyhow, I edited the post because I wanted to make sure it did not come off condescending. I do respect your opinion.

Yes that is why CAPS are the only way to go so ZOS knows exactly what the limitation they want without having to test every possible scenario.

I agree it means they do know the limitations and it doe seem they are finding it challenging to figure out how to manage all of this. However, if we had hard caps on everything then Zenimax is leaning towards specifically telling us how to play the game. Soft caps permit us some choice but with the complex game design we have they would have to be careful with that.

I am not arguing with you as I do agree. It is just is a slippery slope.

The Key word here is "choice". And that is the difference between MMO and not MMO