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Why DLSS announcement was somewhat disappointing
muh
✭✭✭
Hey, let me preface this by saying that it is a good step, do not get me wrong. I understand that the decision to implement DLSS might have been made before AMD announced their Fidelity FX Super Resolution (FSR) solution and implementing DLSS does not mean FSR will not come to ESO eventually as well. Unless being the first to implement DLAA came with some exclusivity non-sense, which I highly doubt.
So why is the announcement to implement DLSS disappointing?
DLSS requires proprietary AI acceleration which is available on Nvidia RTX cards only. That significantly limits the amount of users who actually can use it.
Theres a GPU shortage and price scalping is through the roof already. Just casually upgrading your graphics cards is out of the question for a lot of people.
The game is 7 years old, you probably do not even need a quality upscaling solution if you already run on an RTX card.
Personally I can not help but scratch my head when a developer decides to implement a feature that is only beneficial to a very small subset of its userbase when there is a comparable solution available that benefits a significantly larger part of their audience.
To put some numbers to this claim I looked at the steam hardware survey and simply summed up every card that supports DLSS, and every card that was officially mentioned to support FSR.
DLSS: ~21%
FSR: ~74% (that is including the ~21% that supports DLSS)
Both new consoles run on AMD hardware which can not make use of DLSS (or DLAA for that matter).
While FSR has a list of officially supported GPUs, it does however, in theory, work on every GPU that is meeting minimum requirements of a game that has FSR available. Including last generation consoles. So the actual number of GPUs, and players, that could benefit from FSR is even higher than the ~74% listed above.
That by no means means that older GPUs that already struggle to run the game will suddenly give you an amazing experience, but it could make it ever so slightly better.
Making the experience for the vast majority of people that do not already play at 60+ FPS in 4K ever so slightly better is in my opinion worth more than the other way around.
So why is the announcement to implement DLSS disappointing?
DLSS requires proprietary AI acceleration which is available on Nvidia RTX cards only. That significantly limits the amount of users who actually can use it.
Theres a GPU shortage and price scalping is through the roof already. Just casually upgrading your graphics cards is out of the question for a lot of people.
The game is 7 years old, you probably do not even need a quality upscaling solution if you already run on an RTX card.
Personally I can not help but scratch my head when a developer decides to implement a feature that is only beneficial to a very small subset of its userbase when there is a comparable solution available that benefits a significantly larger part of their audience.
To put some numbers to this claim I looked at the steam hardware survey and simply summed up every card that supports DLSS, and every card that was officially mentioned to support FSR.
DLSS: ~21%
FSR: ~74% (that is including the ~21% that supports DLSS)
Both new consoles run on AMD hardware which can not make use of DLSS (or DLAA for that matter).
While FSR has a list of officially supported GPUs, it does however, in theory, work on every GPU that is meeting minimum requirements of a game that has FSR available. Including last generation consoles. So the actual number of GPUs, and players, that could benefit from FSR is even higher than the ~74% listed above.
That by no means means that older GPUs that already struggle to run the game will suddenly give you an amazing experience, but it could make it ever so slightly better.
Making the experience for the vast majority of people that do not already play at 60+ FPS in 4K ever so slightly better is in my opinion worth more than the other way around.
20
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DaiKahn✭✭✭✭I'm guessing you're an AMD user so of course this will be disappointing for youI'm just a manHail Sithis18 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There will be more and more DLSS user every year and don't forget about completely new AA technology from Nvidia which will be introduced for the first time in ESO! It's amazing that they have such a deal with Nvidia and our old, good ESO will show completely new technology in game industry. It's exciting and amazing
PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton5 -
Katlefiya✭✭✭✭✭Well, even a lot of Nvidia users will be disappointed. Not all of us are on RTX 2xxx or 3xxx cards and - considering the current prices - we will not update anytime soon.22 -
muh✭✭✭I'm guessing you're an AMD user so of course this will be disappointing for you
I could be a Nvidia GTX user who does not get to use DLSS or DLAA. I could be a console player who gets nothing from this feature. I could be an AMD user. I could be owner of an RTX card or in general reach my desired FPS on my desired resolution without DLSS or FSR anyway regardless of which company's hardware I use.
In which camp you want to put me is very much up to you and irrelevant.
Edited by muh on September 18, 2021 11:52AM17 -
Ballermfrau✭✭✭Wait for next week every major tech media source will cover ESO because of DLAA if its on PTS.
I mean here its normal people in this forum turn everything into negativity.
This will give many new players the confidence of the longevity of an 8 year old game.
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eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭DLSS is necessary as a prerequisite to DLAA, which is probably ultimately what ZOS wanted to implement, and DLAA has no FidelityFX equivalent. Hence, DLSS is probably strictly there out of necessity.2 -
muh✭✭✭
Oh absolutely, media is already on the DLAA announcement and I can't wait to see DLAA in action.Ballermfrau wrote: »Wait for next week every major tech media source will cover ESO because of DLAA if its on PTS.
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ghost_bg_ESO✭✭✭✭With that announcement I'm more curious if eso will appear again on GeForce Now (RTX available for subscription plan)...0 -
There are more acronyms in this post than you can find spray painted around Belfast.12
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Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »A lot of us who still use 1060 6gb? Buy today 3060+ is crazy!
Yep. Sure, I'm an AMD user, but even if I weren't, I wouldn't have an RTX card. The idea of spending that much on a GPU (even the retail price) is absurd to me. I don't know how people justify 300-500+ for one, let alone 1k+.4 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, even a lot of Nvidia users will be disappointed. Not all of us are on RTX 2xxx or 3xxx cards and - considering the current prices - we will not update anytime soon.
Eh, even next year when I get a new machine I won't have an RTX whatever - WAY out of my price range most likely. Not to mention I simply don't care anything about the latest greatest graphics thingie.2 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Well, even a lot of Nvidia users will be disappointed. Not all of us are on RTX 2xxx or 3xxx cards and - considering the current prices - we will not update anytime soon.
Eh, even next year when I get a new machine I won't have an RTX whatever - WAY out of my price range most likely. Not to mention I simply don't care anything about the latest greatest graphics thingie.
Good thing it likely doesn't matter as much as the media hypes it.
All recent graphics technology has been a bore and quite useless IMO. Then again, it is quite useful for people that don't want to actually have to optimize or write code when making a game.
But with the advent of automation comes the lack of innovation, and it's quite clearly seen with how regressive game development has become over the last 10 years.1 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭But you know that this new options will be for years, so you will have a chance to catch up and try it for yourself when you will upgrade your PC - even if this will be 3-4 years from now. Don't also forget that from some time we have regular delivery of new options so this probably not the end and there will be more features in future (maybe some AMD options too), so maybe try to relax and try to appreciate fact that 8-years old game is so heavily upgraded with many new technical features.PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
Auth3nticGlitch✭✭✭What a lot of people here are missing, is that AMD FSR is also supported with Nvidia cards, its open source and its easier to implement into games as stated by many developers already. The more important part here is it works with Nvidia cards, so people can't be like "oh, but I don't plan to have an AMD card forever" or "There will be plenty more NVidia users in the future" because really it don't matter with AMD's FSR.
I would have to say this is likely why they chose to implement DLSS instead of FSR and it wouldn't surprise me if in the future they also implement FSR, considering how easy it is to implement.DLSS is necessary as a prerequisite to DLAA, which is probably ultimately what ZOS wanted to implement, and DLAA has no FidelityFX equivalent. Hence, DLSS is probably strictly there out of necessity.
As a side note, you can use FSR using a third party application to scale any game, and while its not 100% compared to it being natively implemented, it is still quite good and useful. You can use either Magpie(Free) and Lossless Scaling(paid) apps to help you out with that, Magpie is heavier on the CPU and Lossless uses all GPU.2 -
Fhritz✭✭✭✭✭Ballermfrau wrote: »Wait for next week every major tech media source will cover ESO because of DLAA if its on PTS.
I mean here its normal people in this forum turn everything into negativity.
This will give many new players the confidence of the longevity of an 8 year old game.
Be proud of ESO guys, we have the opportunity to test something UNIQUE before everyone !I'm a single character man.
Stamblade. Khajiit. Mostly pvp.
And...that's it.1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I'm guessing you're an AMD user so of course this will be disappointing for you
The problem is FSR is free and somewhat easy to implement, they should have announced both would be added into the game. NVDA can use FSR. AMD can use FSR. Stop with the [snip]. Microsoft is in bed with AMD with the consoles. THEY HAVE TO USE FSR. BRING IT OUT NOW!
I have a 5700 and a 2060. I have a ryzen and an i7. [snip] I play the open source game.
[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 21, 2021 1:12PM8 -
DaiKahn✭✭✭✭I'm guessing you're an AMD user so of course this will be disappointing for you
I could be a Nvidia GTX user who does not get to use DLSS or DLAA. I could be a console player who gets nothing from this feature. I could be an AMD user. I could be owner of an RTX card or in general reach my desired FPS on my desired resolution without DLSS or FSR anyway regardless of which company's hardware I use.
In which camp you want to put me is very much up to you and irrelevant.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »I'm guessing you're an AMD user so of course this will be disappointing for you
The problem is FSR is free and somewhat easy to implement, they should have announced both would be added into the game. NVDA can use FSR. AMD can use FSR. Stop with the [snip]. Microsoft is in bed with AMD with the consoles. THEY HAVE TO USE FSR. BRING IT OUT NOW!
I have a 5700 and a 2060. I have a ryzen and an i7. [snip] I play the open source game.
I've just had a friend tell me I'm a jerk and my reply was rude O.o
It wasn't meant in a rude way. At all. I just saw the OP's disappointment, thought they were an AMD user, so could understand that ZOS choosing one way instead of multiple ways felt unfair and was disappointing, that's all
I understand the annoyance and actually hate when companies do this
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 21, 2021 1:13PMI'm just a manHail Sithis1 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, even a lot of Nvidia users will be disappointed. Not all of us are on RTX 2xxx or 3xxx cards and - considering the current prices - we will not update anytime soon.
I’ve been on the EVGA list for a RTX 3080 card for almost a year now (October) and haven’t received a queue notification yet. Yes, I know I can buy a RTX-3080 card from Amazon or Newegg now, but I’m not going to pay scalper prices for it ($2000). Maybe when prices get below $1000, then I’ll consider it. So until then, I’ll just be happy with my 1080ti that still does a pretty good job of running most games.
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Thannazzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭TBH irrespective of the spec of your rig all its going to do is make the render slightly prettier.
It's not going to solve the performance and desync issues caused by moving calcs server side or solve server lag.
It's a classic 'look at this shiny thing, not behind the curtain' move.Edited by Thannazzar on September 19, 2021 8:19AM2 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
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DLSS also produces a significantly better image quality than FSR though. So arguing for the bigger install base of potential users is essentially saying you'd choose quantity over quality. ZOS have chosen quality over quantity. Maybe FSR will be added in the future, but it improves performance at a very noticeable cost to image quality, which you can pretty much already do with the in-game graphics settings (sub sampling option). FSR is basically just that plus a sharpening filter. No AI upscaling like DLSS.Auth3nticGlitch wrote: »What a lot of people here are missing, is that AMD FSR is also supported with Nvidia cards, its open source and its easier to implement into games as stated by many developers already. The more important part here is it works with Nvidia cards, so people can't be like "oh, but I don't plan to have an AMD card forever" or "There will be plenty more NVidia users in the future" because really it don't matter with AMD's FSR.
I would have to say this is likely why they chose to implement DLSS instead of FSR and it wouldn't surprise me if in the future they also implement FSR, considering how easy it is to implement.DLSS is necessary as a prerequisite to DLAA, which is probably ultimately what ZOS wanted to implement, and DLAA has no FidelityFX equivalent. Hence, DLSS is probably strictly there out of necessity.
As a side note, you can use FSR using a third party application to scale any game, and while its not 100% compared to it being natively implemented, it is still quite good and useful. You can use either Magpie(Free) and Lossless Scaling(paid) apps to help you out with that, Magpie is heavier on the CPU and Lossless uses all GPU.1 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I play at 1080p (I went for a 144hz monitor rather than a 4k one) so it's not going to really affect me anyway.So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.1 -
muh✭✭✭
Could you maybe enlighten us about your claims?Darkstorne wrote: »DLSS also produces a significantly better image quality than FSR though. So arguing for the bigger install base of potential users is essentially saying you'd choose quantity over quality. ZOS have chosen quality over quantity. Maybe FSR will be added in the future, but it improves performance at a very noticeable cost to image quality, which you can pretty much already do with the in-game graphics settings (sub sampling option). FSR is basically just that plus a sharpening filter. No AI upscaling like DLSS.
To my knowledge both algorithms are upscaling algorithms. Attempting to create a close to native quality image of higher resolution, from a lower resolution source, creating information that was not present before.
To my knowledge, sub sampling is doing quite the opposite. Creating a lower resolution image by throwing away information from the source image and reducing image quality.
As far as I can tell, ESO's SubSampling setting on "High" is rendering the image at your native resolution. Every setting below that is intentially making the game look worse. FSR's and DLSS' goal would be to basically start from your lowest setting and make it look like "High".
The approach to each technology is different however. DLSS is leveraging the "AI cores" on RTX hardware, using information from the current and previous images. Which can introduce ghosting.
While FSR is using a combination of more traditional upscaling and sharpening algorithms on just the current image, with the caveat that FSR can suffer from a not so great anti-aliasing implementation, if I remember correctly. But that is in the hand of the game developer.
Very, very, quick google search coverage might be comparing DLSS and FSR both at "Quality" setting, which is misleading. It very much is bad marketing from AMD to "top" Nvidia's naming scheme, but the fair comparision would be "Ultra Quality" on FSR versus "Quality" on DLSS, which both produce an image that is looking like native in most situations while increasing frame rate.
That's a lot of words for nothing meaningful actually. Because my concern is that implementing FSR, unlike DLSS, is helping out your fellow players with hardware that is maybe a few years older to get a few more frames out of this game (or a slightly better looking game at similar framerates). Because people who can use DLSS do not have low frame rates in ESO and do not need this feature to begin with (DLAA probably another story).Edited by muh on September 19, 2021 10:38PM5 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeah, this feels like VHS vs Betamax.
The AMD solution might not be as good, but it's way more universal and will benefit way more players, but Nvidia understand that they need to get their solution in as many games as possible to win the marketing war.
And that's what this is all about.
Nvidia is playing hardball on this one. The latest cyberpunk 2077 update disabled the ability to have ray tracing and AMD CAS enabled at the same time, which was working perfectly pre 1.3. They are not wrong to do it and AMD will fall behind if they don't step up and actively push dev to use their tech.
Just because it's better for everyone doesn't mean it'll be used.4 -
macsmooth✭✭✭✭It’s a shame it would have been nice to have given both dlss and fsr at the same time for PC and Consoles
A time when Zos could have shined for everyone and not just to rtx nvidia,
Disappointed1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm guessing you're an AMD user so of course this will be disappointing for you
I do wonder how many eso players actually have an RTX nvidia gpu. I mean I use GTX 980 and I have no reason to upgrade. I have 1080P with 100 FPS in ESO. So upgrading, just to have 1440p or 4K resolution kinda does not make much sense. This kind of improvement is not worth it, especially considering GPU prices right now.
FSR would have been far better choice as basically "ALL" gpus can use it, not just RTX ones, but also basically all GTX ones and all AMD gpsu too. Older or newer - it works on all GPUs. It is surprising that ZOS decided to go with DLSS - especially if you consider that Microsoft owns Bethesda & ZOS and all Microsoft consoles (and consoles in general) use AMD CPU & GPU.
If I had a budget to spend on new technology, I would spend it on something that most of my costumers would notice.
^ Unless, it was not an investment at all and it is all financed by NVIDIA as a part of their technology promotion. I wont be surprised if that is the case since eso will be 1st game featuring DLAA (Ant-Aliasing), so without a doubt ESO will be used as a "demo" of the new technology... but again it is only reserved for RTX cards witch is a very scummy move by NVIDIA.
Yep, I don't see the reason to upgrade to newer GPU just to have higher resolution. 1080P with 60 - 120 FPS is more than enough for me. Maybe if I had bigger screen, then maybe, but 1080P still works great with 27' display. Anyway, I still remember playing crappy shooter games in the 90-ties - 2000 at 15 fps (800x600) and being happy about it lol. Gamers these days are so spoiled lolI play at 1080p (I went for a 144hz monitor rather than a 4k one) so it's not going to really affect me anyway.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on September 21, 2021 10:20AM6 -
orgin_stadia✭✭✭Does it really matter though? When you are busy staring at Z'majas butt you have other concerns than anti aliasing anyway ;o)0
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MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭Hey, let me preface this by saying that it is a good step, do not get me wrong. I understand that the decision to implement DLSS might have been made before AMD announced their Fidelity FX Super Resolution (FSR) solution and implementing DLSS does not mean FSR will not come to ESO eventually as well. Unless being the first to implement DLAA came with some exclusivity non-sense, which I highly doubt.
So why is the announcement to implement DLSS disappointing?
DLSS requires proprietary AI acceleration which is available on Nvidia RTX cards only. That significantly limits the amount of users who actually can use it.
Theres a GPU shortage and price scalping is through the roof already. Just casually upgrading your graphics cards is out of the question for a lot of people.
The game is 7 years old, you probably do not even need a quality upscaling solution if you already run on an RTX card.
Personally I can not help but scratch my head when a developer decides to implement a feature that is only beneficial to a very small subset of its userbase when there is a comparable solution available that benefits a significantly larger part of their audience.
To put some numbers to this claim I looked at the steam hardware survey and simply summed up every card that supports DLSS, and every card that was officially mentioned to support FSR.
DLSS: ~21%
FSR: ~74% (that is including the ~21% that supports DLSS)
Both new consoles run on AMD hardware which can not make use of DLSS (or DLAA for that matter).
While FSR has a list of officially supported GPUs, it does however, in theory, work on every GPU that is meeting minimum requirements of a game that has FSR available. Including last generation consoles. So the actual number of GPUs, and players, that could benefit from FSR is even higher than the ~74% listed above.
That by no means means that older GPUs that already struggle to run the game will suddenly give you an amazing experience, but it could make it ever so slightly better.
Making the experience for the vast majority of people that do not already play at 60+ FPS in 4K ever so slightly better is in my opinion worth more than the other way around.
DLSS makes no sense when you have to consider that the next gen consoles are using AMD GPU. Why go that route when going with AMD features would benefit more players.3 -
macsmooth✭✭✭✭It looks like Zos have listened but be that after everyone has complained, fsr is coming to eso
https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/radeon-software-fidelityfx-super-resolution
Eso is one of the last images on the upcoming games image to feature fsr, so it has only been recently added to the list by the looks of things, one question Zos, When?Edited by macsmooth on October 14, 2021 9:08PM0
