Is pulling Players down from walls and roofs with Dark Convergence an exploit?

AngryOldMan · September 2021

Should we report players for pulling deffenders down from walls and roofs with Dark Convergence or is it intended side effect of this set? Deffending keeps from walls and roofs are getting very annoying since most of the time deffenders are pulled from sieges and out into Zergs (who is the main user of this set BTW, nice Zerg buster) to be killed. Cyrodil as it used to be is destroyed atm, no longer can a smaller group deffend a keep against big groups, we get pulled out and get killed. Please make this a banable offence so deffending keep with sieges is not useles anymore. Please listen to PVP-ers who are not Zerging, but is hurt the most by this "Zerg-buster" set.

RisenEclipse · September 2021

I do believe a similar problem happened a long time ago with the DK chains ability. But they just later patched it so they couldnt do it anymore when enough people complained about it. They will probably just do the same with this ability too. This isnt an exploit so no reason to report anyone. They just need to lower the range the ability can work at is all.

Kusto · September 2021

Couldn't you pull people off the wall with chains anyway? Why should this be bannable. Its part of the fight.

Vevvev · September 2021

Not an exploit but an unintended consequence that will probably be patched out. Time will tell.

Nevidyra · September 2021

haha yoink go brrr

Gadget4 · September 2021

Players intentionally lining up along the outside of a keep wall intentionally using Convergence to pull other players off siege & down to the ground to die

Players standing in the courtyard whilst attacking a keep intentionally using Convergence to pull players from the upper floor of the keep & down to the ground to die

Players, whilst attacking an outpost, standing underneath the upper floor & intentionally using Convergence to pull players off oil & down to the ground to die

@ZOS_GinaBruno .. please can we get some clarification with Dark Convergence & the methods being used? TIA

CaffeinatedMayhem · September 2021

Kusto wrote: »

Couldn't you pull people off the wall with chains anyway? Why should this be bannable. Its part of the fight.

No. Try it. Maybe if your target is at the very edge of a platform on the lower part of the wall...maybe. Otherwise, chains do not reach that far - by design.

The reason DK chains were altered was actually the OTHER morph - gankers would chain themselves up to guards and get inside a keep while it was not in combat, and then kill people who thought they were safe inside.

RevJJ · September 2021

An entire trial group got banned for reporting an exploitable bug (or so they say, I’ve only read their account) yet there is complete radio silence when it comes to people using DC to pull players off walls or other ways this set is being exploited. Makes me think this set was designed to be game breaking.

Amottica · September 2021

Kusto wrote: »

Couldn't you pull people off the wall with chains anyway? Why should this be bannable. Its part of the fight.

As I recall there was a time that game closers were able to reach the top of walls which is unintended. Chains are a gap closer. Zenimax fixed this afaik. This also means it is not part of the fight which also means it is an exploit though I do not think Zenimax did anything about it.

This new set would be no different but is probably an oversight by Zenimax

dem0n1k · September 2021

Fight fire with fire? Wear your own dark convergence set & use your cold fire siege to proc it. Get you team to shoot all their siege in the one spot. bewm. TBH I already see this happening just as much as the opposite way around.

I say enjoy it while it lasts!

thorwyn · September 2021

Attacking someone in IC is grief play. Using a set in Cyro is a bannable exploit.
Gaming 2021 in a nutshell.

OtarTheMad · September 2021

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Couldn't you pull people off the wall with chains anyway? Why should this be bannable. Its part of the fight.

No. Try it. Maybe if your target is at the very edge of a platform on the lower part of the wall...maybe. Otherwise, chains do not reach that far - by design.

The reason DK chains were altered was actually the OTHER morph - gankers would chain themselves up to guards and get inside a keep while it was not in combat, and then kill people who thought they were safe inside.

Yes that was the reason chains was changed, and the reason Leap was as well but the very old version of chains, at least one morph, could pull people off of the walls.

ResidentContrarian · September 2021

I would say "no" since, if it were, they would have disabled those sets despite their widespread use. Maybe they will when people start pulling hammer and scrolls through wall on purpose.

Bergzorn · September 2021

dem0n1k wrote: »

Fight fire with fire? Wear your own dark convergence set & use your cold fire siege to proc it. Get you team to shoot all their siege in the one spot. bewm. TBH I already see this happening just as much as the opposite way around.

I say enjoy it while it lasts!

Wait, does siege really proc DC?

Derra · September 2021

Gadget4 wrote: »

Players intentionally lining up along the outside of a keep wall intentionally using Convergence to pull other players off siege & down to the ground to die

Players standing in the courtyard whilst attacking a keep intentionally using Convergence to pull players from the upper floor of the keep & down to the ground to die

Players, whilst attacking an outpost, standing underneath the upper floor & intentionally using Convergence to pull players off oil & down to the ground to die

@ZOS_GinaBruno .. please can we get some clarification with Dark Convergence & the methods being used? TIA

God forbid people having to do more than leftclick siege in a pvp zone.

Somebody call the police.

dem0n1k · September 2021

Bergzorn wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

Fight fire with fire? Wear your own dark convergence set & use your cold fire siege to proc it. Get you team to shoot all their siege in the one spot. bewm. TBH I already see this happening just as much as the opposite way around.

I say enjoy it while it lasts!

Wait, does siege really proc DC?

I thought that it did as I've been pulled into siege AOE with DC a few times... but I just tested & it does not.
It must have been some other AOE cast in the same spot.

Jamdarius · September 2021

Kusto wrote: »

Couldn't you pull people off the wall with chains anyway? Why should this be bannable. Its part of the fight.

Chains tend to not work in PvP at all (same for ulti Take Flight/Ferocious Leap), especially saw this during Orsinium event a bit ago when you went into IC for event ticket and chains didn't launch, couldn;t even use the skill till I either died or went into sewer and back again.

Larcomar · September 2021

No, it's a mini game. But then the whole of Cyro is a mini game with these new sets.....

Jaimeh · September 2021

I've died to this from gate platforms and keep walls, and annoying as is it, it's how the set works: if an aoe can be landed on the edge, and the set is not on cooldown, it will proc as intended, pulling you there, and then letting you free fall. They need to limit the range, but until then avoid standing at the very edge of walls.

KhajiitLivesMatter · September 2021

AngryOldMan wrote: »

Should we report players for pulling deffenders down from walls and roofs with Dark Convergence or is it intended side effect of this set? Deffending keeps from walls and roofs are getting very annoying since most of the time deffenders are pulled from sieges and out into Zergs (who is the main user of this set BTW, nice Zerg buster) to be killed. Cyrodil as it used to be is destroyed atm, no longer can a smaller group deffend a keep against big groups, we get pulled out and get killed. Please make this a banable offence so deffending keep with sieges is not useles anymore. Please listen to PVP-ers who are not Zerging, but is hurt the most by this "Zerg-buster" set.

as long as it is no bug and or exploit it shouldnt be bannable and this set is neither just bad designed by zos - rather ask for a rework of this sets than to ban players for playing the game

npuk · September 2021

I think it adds a nice new dynamic to counter siege, you have to think a bit more about your placement.

Personally I'm of the opinion that gap closers should work as the originally did with regards to getting up on a wall if its within the abilities range, having some classes that are able to do thing that others can't is a core part of the play style of the game after all.

zaria · September 2021

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Couldn't you pull people off the wall with chains anyway? Why should this be bannable. Its part of the fight.

No. Try it. Maybe if your target is at the very edge of a platform on the lower part of the wall...maybe. Otherwise, chains do not reach that far - by design.

The reason DK chains were altered was actually the OTHER morph - gankers would chain themselves up to guards and get inside a keep while it was not in combat, and then kill people who thought they were safe inside.

Chains don't work if its an height difference of much more than an meter.

jaws343 · September 2021

npuk wrote: »

I think it adds a nice new dynamic to counter siege, you have to think a bit more about your placement.

Personally I'm of the opinion that gap closers should work as the originally did with regards to getting up on a wall if its within the abilities range, having some classes that are able to do thing that others can't is a core part of the play style of the game after all.

This would be fun. Make it so that the keep cannot be flipped unless both the outer and inner walls are breached in some way, whether it be the door or a wall. So that you can actually try to counter siege by scaling the walls and fighting the defenders, but you still need to breach a wall or door so you can't just bypass that either.

Kel · September 2021

I personally don't care about sets in ESO.
We heard this thing about Viper, we heard all the complaining about Sloads, and now these new sets.

The real question is why everyone is so afraid to die in a video game, like it's some personal affront to your ego or something...

Anyone who believes ESO PvP is about skill is kidding themselves. Never has this game been about skill or competition. Like 1vX'ers aren't out here exploiting the weak and thumbless and those who chase?

Get out of here with that nonsense...there's no skill. My experience with small scale groups in Cyrodiil has been five or six players jumping on someone solo. Yes, the lament of the small-scale groups is vastly over exaggerated...such skill

ajkb78 · September 2021

Hard to call it an exploit really. Maybe an unintended consequence. But it's an effect achieved perfectly legitimately using a set in the state it was released by ZoS, it doesn't involve going out of bounds or any form of glitch or other exploitative technique, it's just playing the current state of the game. If ZoS want to change it later, they will. And in the meantime if you don't like being pulled off walls, rethink your method of keep defence.

(Can it also pull attackers up onto the walls? I've not seen this but it would potentially make for good counterplay.)

vgabor · September 2021

ajkb78 wrote: »

(Can it also pull attackers up onto the walls? I've not seen this but it would potentially make for good counterplay.)

Probably not, as it does not actually pull you down, it pulls you off the wall sideways and then you fall down (and receive the fall damage as well) since there's no wall beneath you anymore.

MEBengalsFan2001 · September 2021

Bergzorn wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

Fight fire with fire? Wear your own dark convergence set & use your cold fire siege to proc it. Get you team to shoot all their siege in the one spot. bewm. TBH I already see this happening just as much as the opposite way around.

I say enjoy it while it lasts!

Wait, does siege really proc DC?

I would say yes as long as it has an effect on the ground it will proc DC.

Here is something to think about with proc sets. If a player is using DC and Hrothgar and they get into the zerg group. If the player can survive for say 8 seconds, the zerg group would be wiped especially if they used Caltrop as the ability to proc both sets.

The new PVP sets, definitely need to be looked into.

MasterSpatula · September 2021

Anyone remember back in 2014 when some players figured out how to get into other factions' starting areas and gank people as they were loading in? There was a big brouhaha about it here, with people actually coming onto this forum to defend it with the staggeringly-disingenuous claim that since it was possible it must be allowed. When people pointed out that they knew damned well they weren't supposed to be up there, they stuck to their guns. But, let's be honest; they knew damned well they weren't supposed to be up there.

This situation strikes me as really similar.

I'm sure this is easy to do on accident. But if you're doing it with consistency, you're using a design flaw to do what you know damned well you're not supposed to be able to do.

Chains lost it's ability to pull anything not basically horizontal in PVE because people abused it in PVP to do this exact same thing, You know that. If you're using Dark Convergence for this anyway, well, I don't actually expect ZOS to do anything to you. But if they do, you have only yourself to blame. You know better, and you're doing it anyway.

Nagastani · September 2021

Either its all right or its all wrong.

Had some time to mess around in Cyrodiily last night and got pulled off the walls at Chal/Ales no less than 6 or 7 times in a 10 minute window. Then I logged off and played Civ 5 the rest of the night.

CaffeinatedMayhem · September 2021

Nagastani wrote: »

Either its all right or its all wrong.

Had some time to mess around in Cyrodiily last night and got pulled off the walls at Chal/Ales no less than 6 or 7 times in a 10 minute window. Then I logged off and played Civ 5 the rest of the night.

Thing is, DC doesn't apply CC immunity, so if you break free, you can get pulled the very next second. That's why ball groups are casting DC pulls in a cascade, not all at once

Essentially, the devs broke their own "rules and standards" about how sets behave. The new sets bypass the CP that auto-breaks you out, and don't apply CC immunity so you can be hit over and over and over and over and....

Yet everyone is crying about Hrothgar hitting them for large amounts because some people are still wearing 40k armor (so that's 26% of 80k from Hrothgar.... or 20.8k damage. Soln: wear less armor)

MEBengalsFan2001 · September 2021

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Anyone remember back in 2014 when some players figured out how to get into other factions' starting areas and gank people as they were loading in? There was a big brouhaha about it here, with people actually coming onto this forum to defend it with the staggeringly-disingenuous claim that since it was possible it must be allowed. When people pointed out that they knew damned well they weren't supposed to be up there, they stuck to their guns. But, let's be honest; they knew damned well they weren't supposed to be up there.

This situation strikes me as really similar.

I'm sure this is easy to do on accident. But if you're doing it with consistency, you're using a design flaw to do what you know damned well you're not supposed to be able to do.

Chains lost it's ability to pull anything not basically horizontal in PVE because people abused it in PVP to do this exact same thing, You know that. If you're using Dark Convergence for this anyway, well, I don't actually expect ZOS to do anything to you. But if they do, you have only yourself to blame. You know better, and you're doing it anyway.

I find it interesting in MMOs if a group in PVE dungeon or trail discovers something that is working not as intended, that group may get a ban if they abuse the mechanic. Players in PVP abuse things that are not working as intended and typically don't get banned or punished for such behavior. If this is not how the set should be working, players who are constantly using it to pull players down and doing it regularly, they should receive some type of punishment for such behavior.