Undeath is OP. Does it matter?

Urzigurumash · September 2021

It might not be a stretch to say this is the strongest non-class Defensive Passive in PvP right now. I'm not sure the thematic intent of the game was that the 3 Banners War is a conflict only among Vampires, but, does it matter? Of course nobody thinks dedicated Vampire builds need a nerf.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

By Meridia's Blessed Sword, I meant her Sacred Sword, by that I mean Dawnbreaker. She's supposed to be the eternal foe of Vampires isn't she? It was one thing when it was only some StamPlars and StamSorcs that combined these two things, but now that this combination is a nearly universal meta - maybe it deserves attention.

Edit: After further research it appears that in fact Meridia might employ the Scion of Lamae, given their mutual contempt for Molag Bol, so I might be very wrong that there's a thematic issue here

Jameson18 · September 2021

I'm on the fence. Tbh, I think ZOS secretly likes it because it reduces two issues that always seemed to be mentioned. TTK and Sustain. - Undeath being so widely used on the regular now, reduces TTK and also reduces sustain (in cost increases).

It also pretty much nerfs health recovery into the ground though so... that point is kind of counter productive?

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

I'm on the fence. Tbh, I think ZOS secretly likes it because it reduces two issues that always seemed to be mentioned. TTK and Sustain. - Undeath being so widely used on the regular now, reduces TTK and also reduces sustain (in cost increases).

It also pretty much nerfs health recovery into the ground though so... that point is kind of counter productive?

Right, that's why I'm not sure we should care that it's not thematic or diverse and just accept that Stage 3 Vamp is always more competitive than Mortal. At some point we could say the same about Necro and Warden. Having an affinity for a certain class or playstyle is, ultimately, RP.

Before HP Regen was cut in half, it was a meaningful trade-off for some specs to become Vampire and lose that HPS, versus increasing mitigation through Undeath. That trade-off is no longer important.

You are right that it might be useful to have it this way so that sustain and TTK can be more easily balanced globally, despite that it's not entirely equitable as to how it works out for the viability of certain classes/playstyles.

SkaraMinoc · September 2021

Undeath is very strong if you are running mostly light armor. Once you hit the 33k armor soft cap, Undeath's mitigation is cut in half because damage reduction is calculated last. This scales linearly so at 0 armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 30% and at 33k armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 15%.

Some numbers:

10000 damage hit * 50% mitigation from 33k resist = 5000 damage

5000 damage * 0.85 from Undeath when at 50% health = 4250 damage taken

750 damage / 10000 original hit = 7.5% damage reduction

At 33k resist, 7.5% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 4950 armor / 1487 = 3.32 weight
At 25k resist, 9.3% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6138 armor / 1487 = 4.12 weight
At 22k resist, 10% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6600 armor / 1487 = 4.43 weight

Brass has a stat density of 4.3268.
Buffer of the Swift has a stat density of 4.2192.

This means that Undeath below 50% health with <= 22k resist is equivalent to wearing extra set of Brass or Swift.

At this point it starts to get overpowered.

At 18k resist, players at 33% health have their damage reduced by 14.54% from Undeath. This is equivalent to 9596 armor / 1487 = 6.453 which is the same as wearing Pariah at ~50% health (6.4243).

Conclusion: Vampire Stage 3 - Undeath is overpowered for low resist, low health players.

gamma71 · September 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Undeath is very strong if you are running mostly light armor. Once you hit the 33k armor soft cap, Undeath's mitigation is cut in half because damage reduction is calculated last. This scales linearly so at 0 armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 30% and at 33k armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 15%.

Some numbers:

10000 damage hit * 50% mitigation from 33k resist = 5000 damage

5000 damage * 0.85 from Undeath when at 50% health = 4250 damage taken

750 damage / 10000 original hit = 7.5% damage reduction

At 33k resist, 7.5% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 4950 armor / 1487 = 3.32 weight
At 25k resist, 9.3% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6138 armor / 1487 = 4.12 weight
At 22k resist, 10% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6600 armor / 1487 = 4.43 weight

Brass has a stat density of 4.3268.
Buffer of the Swift has a stat density of 4.2192.

This means that Undeath below 50% health with <= 22k resist is equivalent to wearing extra set of Brass or Swift.

At this point it starts to get overpowered.

At 18k resist, players at 33% health have their damage reduced by 14.54% from Undeath. This is equivalent to 9596 armor / 1487 = 6.453 which is the same as wearing Pariah at ~50% health (6.4243).

Conclusion: Vampire Stage 3 - Undeath is overpowered for low resist, low health players.

Thanks for explaining that It makes sense now how high damage players can wear light armor and still be so tanky. I have to revaluate my heavy armour build now that I was running stage 3 vamp.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Undeath is very strong if you are running mostly light armor. Once you hit the 33k armor soft cap, Undeath's mitigation is cut in half because damage reduction is calculated last. This scales linearly so at 0 armor, Undeath reduces damage up to 30% and at 33k armor, Undeath reduces damage up to 15%.

Some numbers:

10000 damage hit * 50% mitigation from 33k resist = 5000 damage

5000 damage * 0.85 from Undeath when at 50% health = 4250 damage taken

750 damage / 10000 original hit = 7.5% damage reduction

At 33k resist, 7.5% damage reduction from Undeath is equivalent to 4950 armor / 1487 = 3.32 weight
At 25k resist, 9.3% damage reduction from Undeath is equivalent to 6138 armor / 1487 = 4.12 weight
At 22k resist, 10% damage reduction from Undeath is equivalent to 6600 armor / 1487 = 4.43 weight

Brass has a stat density of 4.3268.
Buffer of the Swift has a stat density of 4.2192.

This means that Undeath below 50% health with <= 22k resist is equivalent to wearing extra set of Brass or Swift. At this point it starts to get overpowered.

At 18k resist, players at 33% health have their damage reduced by 14.54% from Undeath. This is equivalent to 9596 armor / 1487 = 6.453 which is the same as wearing Pariah at 50% health (6.4243).

Conclusion: Vampire Stage 3 - Undeath is overpowered for low resist players at low health.

Yes thank you for that math, very helpful.

I think it's appropriate that Mage / Thief specs get the most mileage out of Undeath. That's thematic.

What isn't thematic - or mechanically balanced - is having every class, every spec find more benefit from Undeath than penalty from the sustain costs / increased fire damage taken. Imagine if every MagSorc was taking Lycanthropy for a passive.

Here's another inconvenient idea - if HP Regen is subject to Battlespirit, then Mag and Stam Regen should be too. We find these stats in the same places, with the same values. This would balance Undeath in the same way HP Regen used to. Not that I think this is a great idea, certainly it would be massively unfair to Bosmer and Breton.

The simplest, most thematic, most effective way to curtail the power of Undeath while not nerfing proper Vampires is to disallow Vampires from being a member of the Fighter's Guild. Only problem with that is it's a bad shake for old StamPlars/StamSorcs that have always been using this combination.

divnyi · September 2021

HP regen nerf was a mistake.

Undeath is balanced by ramping costs, and I don't mind it really.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

divnyi wrote: »

HP regen nerf was a mistake.

Undeath is balanced by ramping costs, and I don't mind it really.

Except maybe the best heal in the game is free, Braided Tether/Mortal Coil. Of course it was predictable with the nerf to HP Regen that Vampire Necros would jump out way ahead in terms of survivability - even if they were the class abusing HP Regen the most. I don't really have a problem with that in itself, but, that so many of their Ks come from Dawnbreaker, a skill neither Vampires nor Necros should have access to, it's just a bit much. I saw a good MagSorc running Dawnbreaker the other day. Seems off.

A Vamp StamCro is my 2nd most played toon. I think most StamCros would switch to Berserker Strike before they dropped Vampirism, which to me would be thematic, but maybe I'm wrong.

Again, from a certain point of view all balance considerations are RP. You can be competitive, and run a Stage 3 Vamp Necro in Hrothgar and Dark Convergence, or you can RP.

Vevvev · September 2021

Undeath was buffed to fit in line with ZOS's envisioned playstyle of vampire which is a health stacking DPS, which of course nobody in their right mind is going to do. However, that being said I actually don't think Undeath is overpowered considering what you have to sacrifice in order to get it.

The real reason it's become so popular all of a sudden is because of the change ZOS made where you lose 50% of your HP regeneration in PvP. Suddenly Vampire stage 3's 60% reduced health regeneration is a drop in the bucket where you'd only really losing about 80% of your HP regeneration when combined with Battle Spirit. Due to diminishing returns on the health recovery debuff ((Even debuffs have diminishing returns funny enough)) one of vampire's weaknesses is suddenly negligible since you won't be stacking HP recovery anymore. Tankiness by building into resistances and health wins out, and Undeath rewards health stacking with the only painful debuff being.... sustain... and a bit of fire. In PvP sustain is how you win and now all your abilities for being stage 3 cost 8% more, even the ultimates. 12% more if you go stage 4.

You have to build more into sustain or are forced to use vampire abilities which are a mish mash of utilities and one okay melee ranged spammable. Not only to mention flame damage will hit you more, which is used by just about every single magicka build unless they're ice wardens, magDK's whole kit going to put you in an early grave, and Dawnbreaker will be hitting like a freaking truck with a 20% damage boost against you.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Dawnbreaker will be hitting like a freaking truck with a 20% damage boost against you.

This is part of why it doesn't make sense to me that Vamps can even use Dawnbreaker. In a Mortal vs Vampire fight, whose Dawnbreaker hits harder, considering Undeath?

I have less concerns for any particular or specific adjustment, I just like a diverse ecosystem. I don't think StamPlars need a nerf, I don't think dedicated Vampires need a nerf, so it's more complicated than just Nerf Undeath or Nerf Dawnbreaker.

Un-nerfing HP Regen is the most obvious solution, but I know lots of players thought the stat detracted from the quality of PvP, so I don't want to just disregard their complaints. Perhaps the nerf to HP Regen was a step in the right direction. It's just brought up this other issue that there isn't a good alternative to Undeath.

Hence I made a poll. Does anybody else care whether there's an alternative to Undeath, or am I taking RP too far in caring whether Mortals are relevant in Cyrodiil, that's the gist of it.

Amerises · September 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Undeath is very strong if you are running mostly light armor. Once you hit the 33k armor soft cap, Undeath's mitigation is cut in half because damage reduction is calculated last. This scales linearly so at 0 armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 30% and at 33k armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 15%.

Some numbers:

10000 damage hit * 50% mitigation from 33k resist = 5000 damage

5000 damage * 0.85 from Undeath when at 50% health = 4250 damage taken

750 damage / 10000 original hit = 7.5% damage reduction

At 33k resist, 7.5% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 4950 armor / 1487 = 3.32 weight
At 25k resist, 9.3% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6138 armor / 1487 = 4.12 weight
At 22k resist, 10% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6600 armor / 1487 = 4.43 weight

Brass has a stat density of 4.3268.
Buffer of the Swift has a stat density of 4.2192.

This means that Undeath below 50% health with <= 22k resist is equivalent to wearing extra set of Brass or Swift.

At this point it starts to get overpowered.

At 18k resist, players at 33% health have their damage reduced by 14.54% from Undeath. This is equivalent to 9596 armor / 1487 = 6.453 which is the same as wearing Pariah at ~50% health (6.4243).

Conclusion: Vampire Stage 3 - Undeath is overpowered for low resist, low health players.

Yeah, and when your resources are empty, I win.
Vampire is good for short fights, but I decided to change my build and I have 4k less resistances and 2k less health, and still have better defense after this patch. I'll even help you with losing resources with poisons. I personally dont see any single class/form/set up as outstanding. I'd personally think Dark Convergence is fairly easily dealt with, and Hrothgar does about 4k damage to me, so thats alright too. Sure, hrothgar is a free 4k, but you also have up whatever bonus you could have gotten from a different 5 piece, so whatever.

I dunno, my only complaint this patch is TTK is a little too high for my liking, as if I run into a WW, sometimes the fight can last several minutes...

divnyi · September 2021

Amerises wrote: »

I'd personally think Dark Convergence is fairly easily dealt with, and Hrothgar does about 4k damage to me, so thats alright too. Sure, hrothgar is a free 4k, but you also have up whatever bonus you could have gotten from a different 5 piece, so whatever.

Convergence pulls from very big range. Should be limited by big AoE circe, but it isn't. And second pull should just be removed, it makes central damage unavoidable if you were unlucky to get pulled with second pull.

Hrothgar's tho is even worse offender:
1. It AoEs. Idk why it even needs to have AoE.
2. AoE does twice the damage it should do - it ignores battle spirit and often does 12k to 20k damage, resulting in instakills where it shouldn't happen.
3. Damage doesn't depend on your stats. It created 35k+ bruiser proc set meta again.

ResidentContrarian · September 2021

Shhh...Please don't bring this up! The forums will explode about how "vamps were already underpowered" or something if ZOS takes action against the passivel.

It may even be the only time you will see sorcs and NBs join hands...

Wing · September 2021

mmmm, if mist form was not vamp there would be less vamps.

Jameson18 · September 2021

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Undeath is very strong if you are running mostly light armor. Once you hit the 33k armor soft cap, Undeath's mitigation is cut in half because damage reduction is calculated last. This scales linearly so at 0 armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 30% and at 33k armor, Undeath reduces damage by up to 15%.

Some numbers:

10000 damage hit * 50% mitigation from 33k resist = 5000 damage

5000 damage * 0.85 from Undeath when at 50% health = 4250 damage taken

750 damage / 10000 original hit = 7.5% damage reduction

At 33k resist, 7.5% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 4950 armor / 1487 = 3.32 weight
At 25k resist, 9.3% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6138 armor / 1487 = 4.12 weight
At 22k resist, 10% damage reduction from Undeath at 50% health is equivalent to 6600 armor / 1487 = 4.43 weight

Brass has a stat density of 4.3268.
Buffer of the Swift has a stat density of 4.2192.

This means that Undeath below 50% health with <= 22k resist is equivalent to wearing extra set of Brass or Swift.

At this point it starts to get overpowered.

At 18k resist, players at 33% health have their damage reduced by 14.54% from Undeath. This is equivalent to 9596 armor / 1487 = 6.453 which is the same as wearing Pariah at ~50% health (6.4243).

Conclusion: Vampire Stage 3 - Undeath is overpowered for low resist, low health players.

What about penetration?

katorga · September 2021

There are so many sources of % damage reduction now, that it doesn't matter. It is probably more impactful in noCP.

It doesn't seem to stop people getting blown up by procs.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Shhh...Please don't bring this up! The forums will explode about how "vamps were already underpowered" or something if ZOS takes action against the passivel.

It may even be the only time you will see sorcs and NBs join hands...

Anybody who's uncomfortable with this post should make a post about un-nerfing HP Regen, that would immediately solve the issue that there isn't much benefit to playing as a Mortal.

Of course any consideration between Sustain and Mitigation will lean towards Mitigation the higher damage is, and towards Sustain the lower damage is, so the ubiquity of Vampirism might be incidental to the recent swing towards high damage and not something which will persist forever. By no means should any change undo the long-standing tradition that Sorcs/NBs/Templars in 5 Light or 5 Medium often find their best numbers with Vampirism.

As for NBs, however, I would think some would like to divorce the masses of Brawlers from Vampirism, since the sprint cloak + damage buff means any class can adopt some of the NB playstyle. I enjoy the sprint cloak feature, it's fun, but the issue I have particularly is that tanky StamDens and StamDKs should almost certainly run Vampire to play as a Brawler. That's not how it used to be - HP Regen used to offer a powerful alternative.

But, who really cares? Vampirism has more of an impact on "character building / RP" than Jewelry or Armor Traits, but we're all completely fine with 3x Infused Damage jewels being the meta for almost everything except HarmCro, we were all fine with 7 Impen being almost mandatory for years. If we should just regard Vampirism as another "layer" of Battlespirit for most players, so be it.

Vaoh · September 2021

If the issue is thematic, like having Vampire Templars and Vampire Fighter’s guild skill users, then I think it would be cool to tinge those “light-based” skills a blood red if used as a Vampire

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Vaoh wrote: »

If the issue is thematic, like having Vampire Templars and Vampire Fighter’s guild skill users, then I think it would be cool to tinge those “light-based” skills a blood red if used as a Vampire

I may be wrong that there's any thematic issue. After some research it appears the assumption that neither Stendarr (Templars) nor Meridia (Dawnbreaker) would work with Vampires is erroneous, so long as they were "Scion of Lamae" and not "Scion of Molag Bal", i.e., their Vampirism originates from Noxiphilic Sanguivoria and not Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris. Molag Bal is the Father of Vampires, but Lamae and Boethiah are both opposed to Molag Bal, and Stendarr appears to have some alliance with Boethiah.

I'll defer to those more educated than me on that subject, but, either way pretty sure the 3 Banners War wasn't supposed to be something fought only among Vampires and Werewolves. Mortals ought to have some meaningful advantage.

Greek_Hellspawn · September 2021

For me 8% increased cost is a huge drawback, i really feel the negative impact on my sustain (noCp).

divnyi · September 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Shhh...Please don't bring this up! The forums will explode about how "vamps were already underpowered" or something if ZOS takes action against the passivel.

It may even be the only time you will see sorcs and NBs join hands...

Anybody who's uncomfortable with this post should make a post about un-nerfing HP Regen, that would immediately solve the issue that there isn't much benefit to playing as a Mortal.

As if that change anything. I was vocal at PTS that this is wrong and it ruins perfectly balanced (noCP) sets. I did polls.
Everyone agreed that the issue is CP star and free regen on foods.

As if that change anything.

Vevvev · September 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Dawnbreaker will be hitting like a freaking truck with a 20% damage boost against you.

This is part of why it doesn't make sense to me that Vamps can even use Dawnbreaker. In a Mortal vs Vampire fight, whose Dawnbreaker hits harder, considering Undeath?

I have less concerns for any particular or specific adjustment, I just like a diverse ecosystem. I don't think StamPlars need a nerf, I don't think dedicated Vampires need a nerf, so it's more complicated than just Nerf Undeath or Nerf Dawnbreaker.

Un-nerfing HP Regen is the most obvious solution, but I know lots of players thought the stat detracted from the quality of PvP, so I don't want to just disregard their complaints. Perhaps the nerf to HP Regen was a step in the right direction. It's just brought up this other issue that there isn't a good alternative to Undeath.

Hence I made a poll. Does anybody else care whether there's an alternative to Undeath, or am I taking RP too far in caring whether Mortals are relevant in Cyrodiil, that's the gist of it.

Didn't stop me from using the blade in Skyrim, and there's even a vampire bloodline that has an innate flame power, the Haarvenu. Vampires in TES were never limited by their weapons or magic styles due to their condition, and it'd actually be beneficial to use silver, flame, and light magic against other vampires or undead. Fighting honorable gets vampires killed.

The lore supports vampires being able to use the Fighter's Guild abilities and I really don't see the problem as a result.

TimeDazzler · September 2021

The most bias poll I've ever seen, disgusting.

Minyassa · September 2021

You're forgetting that anyone who takes Vampirism is accepting a huge permanent nerf to their toon's appearance. You may not think of it as such, but take a gander at how many threads people have posted in this forum demanding to allow their Vampires to look normal but still keep the benefits. If you don't care how your toon looks, you have an advantage, but many many people are bothered by that change and it does make it a tradeoff.

alberichtano · September 2021

divnyi wrote: »

HP regen nerf was a mistake.

Undeath is balanced by ramping costs, and I don't mind it really.

Indeed. A reason I never bothered with vampirism after they revamped (pun intended) vampires. I zugg at sustain as it is, so costlier skill use is just not for me.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

Minyassa wrote: »

You're forgetting that anyone who takes Vampirism is accepting a huge permanent nerf to their toon's appearance. You may not think of it as such, but take a gander at how many threads people have posted in this forum demanding to allow their Vampires to look normal but still keep the benefits. If you don't care how your toon looks, you have an advantage, but many many people are bothered by that change and it does make it a tradeoff.

In PvP I think most players are willing to sacrifice on their appearance for a combat advantage, but yes you are right, to me this is an argument that players should have a viable alternative to Undeath. Perhaps, for the long term health of build diversity, the next Guild skill line should be exclusive to Mortals, or something.

Urzigurumash · September 2021

TimeDazzler wrote: »

The most bias poll I've ever seen, disgusting.

There have been many discussions here about the "tank meta" in PvP.

Let's review:

Heavy Armor, or Passive Mitigation = Bad
HP-Scaled Heals = Bad
HP Regen, or AFK Auto-Healing = Bad

Undeath, or Passive HP-Scaled AFK Auto-Mitigation = Good

Amottica · September 2021

divnyi wrote: »

HP regen nerf was a mistake.

Undeath is balanced by ramping costs, and I don't mind it really.

I agree and the poll strongly demonstrates most agree.

moo_2021 · September 2021

Vaoh wrote: »

If the issue is thematic, like having Vampire Templars and Vampire Fighter’s guild skill users, then I think it would be cool to tinge those “light-based” skills a blood red if used as a Vampire

Maybe it's necessary for players to identify vampires? Could werewolves use polymorphs?

I'm considering to hide the face so that others wouldn't know to use fire or silver shards on my vamp templar

Vevvev · September 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If the issue is thematic, like having Vampire Templars and Vampire Fighter’s guild skill users, then I think it would be cool to tinge those “light-based” skills a blood red if used as a Vampire

Maybe it's necessary for players to identify vampires? Could werewolves use polymorphs?

I'm considering to hide the face so that others wouldn't know to use fire or silver shards on my vamp templar

Any vampire hunter with a brain can tell who is a vampire with Skilled Tracker. While slotted vampires and werewolves glow on their screen helping them see who should receive FG abilities to the face. No amount of polymorphs, skins, or armor can hide from Skilled Tracker.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Undeath is OP. Does it matter?

Undeath is OP. Does it matter? 58 votes