vamp_emily wrote: »

I don't want PVE players playing PVP. I want PVP players playing that try to win the campaign.

This..

In all my PVP experience, across all games (including ESO) this is the attitude that grinds my gears.

Why do you think PVE folks have been asking for a different, non PVP version of Cyr? So we don't have to be looked down upon for wanting to play the game we want to play. But if we want things, we have to go to those zones, just like how PVP folks have to go to PVE places for gear.

Difference is, PVP folks can look up a guide, and (lets be honest) most vet mode dungeons are not 'that' hard. You died to a boss? [press E to resurrect here]

PVE folks, have to have their heads on a swivel, knowing they are in a place they don't want to be in, where they can get one shot. Go back to the start, and begin the very long run just to get back to where they were to finish what they were doing.

This is why I don't PVP anymore. This is why there is nothing that will truly entice me to go into PVP lands. I don't care about the achievements or the antiquities from those zones, I don't 'need' them.

Although, I do have to give a big thank you ESO for giving out AP for a daily reward this month, because that's the only way I'm getting any.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The incentive to draw PVE players to PVP and vice versa is already there TBH.

PVP is the best way to earn transmute crystals, and you can spend PVP currency on sets that are useful in PVE (Powerful Assault for example). In addition to that, you can use AP to buy stuff from the golden, and AP is easier to earn than gold.

For PVPers, they have to play at least some PVE in order to get sets that they want to use for PVP. Pariah, Amberplasm, Swampraider, etc. All are good sets for PVP use, but you have to play/grind PVE content to earn those sets. They also need to play some PVE in order to obtain upgrade materials so that they are getting the most out of their sets.

Not sure there needs to be even more incentive to draw players from the other side to play the opposite mode. The bottom line is that most people will have a preference, and no matter what you do, they're always going to gravitate towards that preference.

I agree with this comment. Further, those who really do not like PvP/PvE are not going to start wanting to PvP/PvE because there are people to police the activity. It comes down to a preference.

I have only played 1 MMO, I suck at PVP, and I have no desire to change that.
I rarely ever use chat.
I view the other players as members of my guild and essentially (unless I am forced to do otherwise) treat everyone as an NPC.
You are going to be hard pressed to coax me into PVP.

Gythral wrote: »

If I wanted PvP I'd go play a MOBA

Only trhing that will get me into a PvP zone in ESO is the removal of PvP!

Pretty much my logic.
If I want to PvP, I'll just play a MOBA and if I didn't want to build items, I'll just play a fighting game or a shooter. ESO is the very dead last choice to PvP for me and the only reason I have ever wanted (not tried) PvP here is for the daily bonuses. That's not even enough to keep me not even just doing Battlegrounds but in the game itself. Hey at least it has introduced me to the MMO genre and I spend most of my time playing the other ones. I'm really just here to try to influence good change to ESO.

When a group goes to a World Boss or a dungeon boss fight, there are several things:
- It stands there, waiting for us to aggro.
- So we can prepare and discuss strategies, if necessary.
- If we die, we respawn more or less where we died.
- So we can rethink and change our strategy and immediately try again.
That way, players learn about the encounter and what they need to do, getting better and more comfortable along the way.

They also can stop at some point when they think they're not ready for the content yet, or don't want to get there at all. If you don't care about training until you are able to do vet dungeons, you can just not do them.

Everything of that is completely absent in PvP. There's no way to learn from a PvP encounter, in the same manner. When and who you'll be encountering next, is mostly random, and chances are you'll be respawning five minutes of horseriding away. There's no zone in PvP where you'll only meet enemies appropriate to your skill level.

That means getting into PvP, esp. as a single player without guild or group support, is a really tedious, annoying process, and there's no end in sight, and learning to get better is more a game of random chance and throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks (only for the property of the wall to change half a minute later).

Add to that the mentality that this thread exhibits as well, that people would naturally start to like PvP if only they were exposed to it. Or the misguided idea that getting better at PvP is an easy and attractive goal to set for yourself. Or that constantly getting better at the game is a thing that all players naturally want, or should want. Or the constant expectation that you're already decent at PvP when you're getting there. Or the huge and unavoidable disparity in skill level - it's like people trying for a Fang Lair trifecta ganging up on and ruining the day of others who're learning to beat normal FG1.

Sometimes people simply don't want to play PvP. Period.

MrBrownstone wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

To be frank...

EVERYONE has their own preferences. What is fun for one, won't be fun for another. I don't think much effort should be placed on trying to get people to try something that isn't to their taste since they will only resent it!

Why do you assume that? There are tons of players who haven't tried content that they could actually like. For example, one of my friends had never tried PvP before, not because he's a strictly PvE player, he PvPs in other games, but he never tried PvP because the game never enticed him to and he was like unaware of it. One day during MYM we invited him to IC with us and he had lots of fun, since then he always PvPs with us. Some content is just not advertised enough. If you don't like PvP then you don't have to play, but don't be against making it more inviting.

Actually I DO PVP and also PVE. Why do I say not to force people? Because people have brains and when they are ready they will be open to try it. Trying to force people rarely works. I wasn't open to playing PVP until I reached end game and was trying different things out. It was my decision and no amount of forcing would have worked...in fact, I think I would have resisted it even more. I still prefer PVE, but when I am in the mood PVP can be fun as well.

I try to avoid pvp when I can. For example, I'm only going to earn 1 ticket per day during the year one event as I'm not going anywhere near Imperial City.

I guess I failed to make myself the least bit clear to most people, despite my best efforts. To clarify some points I apparently missed:

-- I see a lot of PvE players complain about toxicity being what keeps them enjoying PvP. I see a lot of replies to those people saying, "Well you just have to get used to that." Not helpful, not constructive.

-- I see a lot of PvP players complain about toxicity being what keeps them from enjoying PvE. I see a lot of replies to those people saying, "You're wrong, there's no toxicity in trial/vet dungeon groups, you must be starting trouble." Not helpful, not constructive.

-- I talk to people easily in game, have a full friends list and am in two social guilds I talk to dozens of people to, and have spoken to probably five hundred people in-game since I started playing, most of them PvE-exclusive players. Whenever the subject of "I don't like PvP" came up and I asked them why, the answer is "toxic PvP community" at least 75% of the time. The remaining answers have been "I'm content with PvE" and "I'm afraid to get involved not knowing anything." In cases of the latter, nice PvP players have usually stepped in to say, "hey, don't be afraid, I'll show you how things work". This works well for that particular answer. There is no remedy for "not interested". The overwhelming majority of answers that *I personally have gotten over the last 4.5 years* would be remedied by less toxicity in PvP.

-- I have spoken with a couple dozen PvP players to get advice, ask for help, or offer help in PvE. The ones that don't like PvE have given me two answers: "It's boring and predictable" or "I got treated like crap in the groups I tried so I give up." The latter sounds just exactly like the PvE players but in reverse.

-- I have never, ever met anyone personally that hates PvP because "I get killed." Not once. Considering that we all get killed endlessly in PvE I can't imagine why anyone would ever have a problem with that. I would never consider "not liking being killed" to be a valid reason for disliking PvP...if someone dislikes being killed they shouldn't play any of this game at all.

-- "Enticing" does not mean forcing. I completely fail to understand why anyone would interpret my suggestion as a way to force someone into a play style they don't enjoy. The purpose was to suggest a remedy for the number one reason that I, personally, have been told hundreds of times is the reason why someone dislikes PvP or PvE, that being toxicity from one side or the other. If you, the reader, do not dislike PvP or PvE because of toxicity, then this obviously has nothing to do with you. But don't begin to think that the number of people affected by it are few and far between.

--I have spent time focusing on this issue because it bothered me from the beginning of my play time and I have been looking for some kind of fix for it for years. It is widespread, and if you don't know about it then you aren't talking to the people that are affected by it. If you run with a group of people who don't care what anyone else does, then of course you wouldn't talk to the people affected by it, they aren't your crowd. But there are many PvE players who would enjoy both modes if they weren't taught either by hearsay or personal experience that they will be treated badly in PvP, and there are many PvP players who would enjoy both modes if they weren't taught by hearsay or personal experience that they'll be treated badly in PvE.

moo_2021 wrote: »

I love PvP. But the entrance cost to Cyro and IC is so high and the experience so frustrating until I maxed out crafting skills, made food, potion and poison, farmed specific sets, got scrying level 7 and mystic items.

It really is an end-game activity. As much as I love PVP, I would definitely think twice if I was starting from scratch on a new account.

Minyassa wrote: »

I guess I failed to make myself the least bit clear to most people, despite my best efforts. To clarify some points I apparently missed:

-- I see a lot of PvE players complain about toxicity being what keeps them enjoying PvP. I see a lot of replies to those people saying, "Well you just have to get used to that." Not helpful, not constructive.

-- I see a lot of PvP players complain about toxicity being what keeps them from enjoying PvE. I see a lot of replies to those people saying, "You're wrong, there's no toxicity in trial/vet dungeon groups, you must be starting trouble." Not helpful, not constructive.

-- I talk to people easily in game, have a full friends list and am in two social guilds I talk to dozens of people to, and have spoken to probably five hundred people in-game since I started playing, most of them PvE-exclusive players. Whenever the subject of "I don't like PvP" came up and I asked them why, the answer is "toxic PvP community" at least 75% of the time. The remaining answers have been "I'm content with PvE" and "I'm afraid to get involved not knowing anything." In cases of the latter, nice PvP players have usually stepped in to say, "hey, don't be afraid, I'll show you how things work". This works well for that particular answer. There is no remedy for "not interested". The overwhelming majority of answers that *I personally have gotten over the last 4.5 years* would be remedied by less toxicity in PvP.

-- I have spoken with a couple dozen PvP players to get advice, ask for help, or offer help in PvE. The ones that don't like PvE have given me two answers: "It's boring and predictable" or "I got treated like crap in the groups I tried so I give up." The latter sounds just exactly like the PvE players but in reverse.

-- I have never, ever met anyone personally that hates PvP because "I get killed." Not once. Considering that we all get killed endlessly in PvE I can't imagine why anyone would ever have a problem with that. I would never consider "not liking being killed" to be a valid reason for disliking PvP...if someone dislikes being killed they shouldn't play any of this game at all.

-- "Enticing" does not mean forcing. I completely fail to understand why anyone would interpret my suggestion as a way to force someone into a play style they don't enjoy. The purpose was to suggest a remedy for the number one reason that I, personally, have been told hundreds of times is the reason why someone dislikes PvP or PvE, that being toxicity from one side or the other. If you, the reader, do not dislike PvP or PvE because of toxicity, then this obviously has nothing to do with you. But don't begin to think that the number of people affected by it are few and far between.

--I have spent time focusing on this issue because it bothered me from the beginning of my play time and I have been looking for some kind of fix for it for years. It is widespread, and if you don't know about it then you aren't talking to the people that are affected by it. If you run with a group of people who don't care what anyone else does, then of course you wouldn't talk to the people affected by it, they aren't your crowd. But there are many PvE players who would enjoy both modes if they weren't taught either by hearsay or personal experience that they will be treated badly in PvP, and there are many PvP players who would enjoy both modes if they weren't taught by hearsay or personal experience that they'll be treated badly in PvE.

When people complain about "toxicity" in PVP it's worth noting exacty what they are talking about.

You have not been clear what you mean by "toxicity", so I'm going to talk about what I've heard a certain players talk about when they complain about "toxicity" in PVP.

They aren't usually talking about players breaking the TOS. Repeated teabagging, hate whispers, targeted harassment of the same player - those are all against the TOS and deserve to be reported when players are bothered by them.

But that's not the usual complaints I hear from people who dislike PVP so much they avoid it and complain whenever they realize that ZOS is "enticing" them to PvPvE zones with skyshards/fish/quests/leads/event tickets, etc.

I'm looking at the people complaining about having to set foot in Imperial City for the Year One Event. What "toxic" behavior are they complaining about that they call the zone a cesspool?

Ganking. Bombing. Getting ambushed for their Tel Var, no matter how little. Literally, complaining that they might get killed in a zone that's explicitly PvPvE, while doing a PvPvE quest. I have heard this complaint dozens of times before too.

I'm sorry, to disagree with you, but yes, there are tons of players who dislike being killed, or perhaps to reframe it, who dislike having another player be able to block their progress by killing them while questing, taking away half their "earned" Tel Var and delaying them from getting their event tickets. Again, I have heard this frustration dozens of times by players who are angry that in a PvPvE zone, a PVP player can block or delay them from something they would do easily by themselves in a PVE zone....as if the PVP player is toxic for killing/blocking/delaying them in a zone designed explicitly for PvPvE.

Moreover, how do you propose to make PVP "less toxic" for those players? Literally, ganking, bombing, and ambushing IS a part of PVP. You can't remove it to make a certain segment of players happy. For the players for whom any sort of "another player can block or delay me from accomplishing my quest/lead/event ticket" PVP is always going to be something they dislike because fundamentally, it's about having to fight other players to get what you want.

There's a reason we get so many "ZOS, give us a PVE-only safe zone with the exact same rewards as the PvPvE zones" threads about Cyrodiil and Imperial City. For a certain segment of players, "toxicity" does mean "another player can kill me while I'm trying to get the rewards I want."


Sorry, but you can't fundamentally change PVP enough to appeal to people who hate PVP because of competitive and combative interactions with other players where they can block or delay your progress. That's literally what PVP is.

It's not about the hate whispers - I once was thanked for not being toxic when someone killed me while doing an IC daily for event tickets. Indeed, we could clean up all the hate whispers and taunts (not a bad idea, imo) and players who dislike PVP would still dislike PVP.


I really do think it'd be worth narrowing down exactly what sort of "toxicity" you hear is driving away the players who don't like it.

Because PVPers can work on stuff like welcoming group behaviors, less hate whispers, and less taunts.

If what people dislike amounts to saying "Don't PVP" during events and in certain PvPvE locations like Cyrodiil towns...not gonna happen, for reasons that I should hope are obvious. It's not toxic to PVP exactly how the Devs intended.

There is a stark difference between getting killed/ambushed during some activity as part of PvP, and the event experience.

Every event with PvE activities in a PvP zone (town quests, IC quests), PvP is turned into a "toxic" environment in itself by players who don't want to fight players but camp specific sites to farm victims.
It's those times when all the lofty rhetoric about "more exciting and less predictable combat", "competitive play", and so on, completely breaks down in places like Cropsford, Molag Bal, or Sewer Base entrances, and PvP turns into borderline griefing.

And that's the exact time when most PvE players get to experience what PvP is.
No wonder it's got the reputation it has.

For me a major issue is the PvE/PvP balance. If I have a reasonable PvE solo character that’s somewhat tanky, and kills things reasonably quickly, I still die in two seconds in PvP to 20k damage abilities. You have to build too specifically for that purpose, and player damage at the extremes has gotten too out of line.

The recent change to increase TTK seems like a step in the right direction, but there’s still the prevalence of widespread self healing and extreme tanking builds that allow for stalemates to occur.

In previous games I’ve played there is an advantage to considering PvP in your build, but you didn’t need to entirely change your character to have any sort of chance.