Vampirism feels incredibly underwhelming and underdeveloped

TheUndeadAmulet · August 2021

As part of the Greymoor Chapter, the vampire skill line and vampirism as a whole were revamped so vampirism didn't simply feel like a few passives/buffs and one skill. The goal of the changes to vampirism was to give it an actual identity - Players with vampirism SHOULD be playing differently from players without it. It has been nearly a year and a half (!!!) since this rework, and the changes made seem to have failed spectacularly in their goal. Vampirism still largely a few passives and a skill in PvP, and a largely niche and unrewarding build style in PvE. This happened for a variety of reasons, which I will be discussing in-depth in this post. I might provide some suggestions for changes, but for the most part I will be focusing on the failures (and successes) of the vampire skill line design.

I'll start with the successes of the vampire rework, the most obvious being the more direct encouragement of kiss-curse gameplay via the Vampirism feeding tiers. With each tier, your vampire abilities become more accessible and you gain powerful new passive bonuses, but at the same time, regular abilities become less accessible. The goal of this is obvious - if you want to fully benefit from the perks of being a vampire, you will need to lean more into vampirism and its unique playstyle as a whole. You can still benefit from the abilities and full passives of vampirism while still playing roughly the same as before, but you will be trading the passive benefits of vampirism with its not insignificant downsides. But as a whole, the vampire skill line encourages a certain playstyle. Eviscerate and morphs become stronger as you lose health, undeath becomes stronger as you lose health, blood frenzy and morphs exchange health and (more importantly, healing from other players) for power, and vampiric drain and morphs restore lost health. The vampire abilities (attempt to) encourage a high risk, high reward playstyle where you teeter on the brink of life and death. Thematically, this is brilliant. Gameplay wise, it is incredibly ineffective. @Vevvev summarizes this brilliantly in regards to PvE in the "ZOS What was the motive for such a punitive approach to the vampire skill line?" thread:

Vevvev wrote: »

You can cut off the healers for increasing your damage but now you're very prone to dying and need to be self sufficient, and by being self sufficient now you're not as powerful a DPS as you could be and miss out on certain buffs making this exponentially more of an issue. All paths of the vampire with the exceptions of the vampire healer and tank all lead to a solo build. Vampire is not group friendly and that is the death nail in the coffin.

Of course, solo builds ARE viable in PvP, but the PvP environment actively works against dedicated vampire builds - Healing and damage is halved, while health cost abilities remain the same, meaning their cost is effectively doubled. Being low health is actively discouraged as entering execute range is like lying your head on the executioner('s) block. In PvP, Vampirism is only really used on ganking builds that abuse the extra power spikes it gives, and for undeath and elusive mist. This is because most of the Vampire skill line abilities and morphs - new, old, and reworked - are incredibly ineffective and/or uninspiring in not only PvP, but also PvE.

Many of the skills are plainly awful in execution. Eviscerate is a single target magicka melee spammable that does nothing else other than get stronger when you lose health. Magicka melee spammables as a whole have to be a lot stronger and/or provide additional utility to even be considered for usage - see jabs and whip for examples of successful magicka melee spammables, and concealed weapon as an example of failed magicka melee spammables. The primary strength of magicka is it's effectiveness at range - without it you might as well play a stamina build - you NEED to give some heavy incentives for a magicka build to go into melee. Vampiric drain takes two of the least desired skill effects in the game - channeling and healing based on missing health - to create an awful skill in every conceivable way. Mesmerize simply isn't useful or reliable enough to justify taking a skill slot: the stun is incredibly difficult to hit in PvP AND it can't hit opponents that are running away. In PvE, there are much better AoE crowd control skills in time stop. Blood scion is simply too expensive, even with stage 4 cost reduction, as a lot of its cost comes from the removal of ultimate generation while using it.

Many of the skill morphs are also boring and/or outclassed by their alternative. Skill morphs, as a general rule of thumb, should have different functions to their alternative. This way, each morph has a niche and won't simply be outclassed by its sibling. EVERY vampire skill has morphs that share functions (except for vampiric drain, but even then, exhilarating drain outclasses drain vigor for any reasonable person that wants to use it). Arterial burst outclasses blood for blood in damage. Simmering frenzy outclasses sated frenzy in power. Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability. Elusive mist outclasses blood mist in survivability. Swarming Scion outclasses perfect scion in sheer power. No morphs provide unique and interesting functions, and this fundamental mistake severely hinders the ability of players to utilize vampire skills. More variety in vampire skills means more variety and adaptability in vampire builds, increasing their viability. I fail to see why there isn't a stamina morph of eviscerate - it's as simple as changing the cost and scaling to stamina, and the damage to bleed.

TL;DR: The basic gameplay design of vampirism goes against the rules of the game. The skills they have available to them are weak, or uninteresting, or both. The morphs of these skills are incredibly uninspired and feel pointless. Overall, the vampire revamp feels not only underwhelming, but actively lazy and underdeveloped.

Amottica · August 2021

Not arguing about your opinion as I respect it. However, I do ask how the measurement that the revamp of the skill line has failed spectacularly in respect to Zenimax's goal?

What seems to be their stated goal in the related patch notes is "improving the entire experience as a Vampire" I take that as making it more than just "a few passives/buffs and one skill". Granted, from what I understand of the old design vs the new design I would expect a lot of players have abandoned the skill one because it no longer fits their style of play. However, this seems required if the skill line is to be more than just some passives.

As for the point about cutting off healers to increase damage seemingly causing players to die. Well, that is a personal choice each player has to make. If they are having problems surviving with the manner they are trying to play then maybe the player should consider changing things up a bit.

A guildmate told me how he was told to cure their vampirism (before the said changes) because he was dying to fire too much. Well, sounds like the same thing is being discussed in this thread, just with a twist due to the new design. So it does not seem the new design is against the rules of the game. Just my opinion tossed in here at the end.

TheUndeadAmulet · August 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Not arguing about your opinion as I respect it. However, I do ask how the measurement that the revamp of the skill line has failed spectacularly in respect to Zenimax's goal?

What seems to be their stated goal in the related patch notes is "improving the entire experience as a Vampire" I take that as making it more than just "a few passives/buffs and one skill". Granted, from what I understand of the old design vs the new design I would expect a lot of players have abandoned the skill one because it no longer fits their style of play. However, this seems required if the skill line is to be more than just some passives.

Measuring success is pretty difficult and relatively subjective. If the goal of the revamp was simply "improving the entire experience as a vampire", then the fact that you CAN have a (slightly) different gameplay experience when playing as a vampire is a success. Prior the rework, vampirism wasn't an experience - it was 2 passives and a skill that players abused. Vampires were functionally the same as normal players, therefore any real gameplay changes as a result of being a vampire is an improvement. I say the revamp failed spectacularly because the vampire playstyle is largely just two skills in PvE, and one skill and passives in PvP, when it has the potential to be so much more. Increasing vampire stages increases the cost of normal skills while decreasing the cost of vampire skills, so obviously we are supposed to rely more on vampire skills as we advance. But there is no dedicated vampire DoT, no (usable) heal, no (usable) stun, no AoE potential outside of swarming scion. It is missing tools that are required to create a viable vampire-focused build, so what ends up happening is an extreme reliance on skills outside the vampire skill line. This muddies the unique playstyle that the vampirism skill line encourages. You don't advance vampire stages to reduce the cost of the skills, you do it to gain access to the passives.

Amottica wrote: »

As for the point about cutting off healers to increase damage seemingly causing players to die. Well, that is a personal choice each player has to make. If they are having problems surviving with the manner they are trying to play then maybe the player should consider changing things up a bit.

A guildmate told me how he was told to cure their vampirism (before the said changes) because he was dying to fire too much. Well, sounds like the same thing is being discussed in this thread, just with a twist due to the new design. So it does not seem the new design is against the rules of the game. Just my opinion tossed in here at the end.

The issue isn't the risk-reward playstyle itself. The issue is that playstyle demands self-reliance, which inevitably reduces damage. So you're essentially cutting out the healers interactions with you for minimal, if any, damage gain. The healer has their own contribution to the group reduced for little group benefit. It's an overall group negative, not just an individual negative.

Hope that clears things up

Amottica · August 2021

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Not arguing about your opinion as I respect it. However, I do ask how the measurement that the revamp of the skill line has failed spectacularly in respect to Zenimax's goal?

What seems to be their stated goal in the related patch notes is "improving the entire experience as a Vampire" I take that as making it more than just "a few passives/buffs and one skill". Granted, from what I understand of the old design vs the new design I would expect a lot of players have abandoned the skill one because it no longer fits their style of play. However, this seems required if the skill line is to be more than just some passives.

Measuring success is pretty difficult and relatively subjective. If the goal of the revamp was simply "improving the entire experience as a vampire", then the fact that you CAN have a (slightly) different gameplay experience when playing as a vampire is a success. Prior the rework, vampirism wasn't an experience - it was 2 passives and a skill that players abused. Vampires were functionally the same as normal players, therefore any real gameplay changes as a result of being a vampire is an improvement. I say the revamp failed spectacularly because the vampire playstyle is largely just two skills in PvE, and one skill and passives in PvP, when it has the potential to be so much more. Increasing vampire stages increases the cost of normal skills while decreasing the cost of vampire skills, so obviously we are supposed to rely more on vampire skills as we advance. But there is no dedicated vampire DoT, no (usable) heal, no (usable) stun, no AoE potential outside of swarming scion. It is missing tools that are required to create a viable vampire-focused build, so what ends up happening is an extreme reliance on skills outside the vampire skill line. This muddies the unique playstyle that the vampirism skill line encourages. You don't advance vampire stages to reduce the cost of the skills, you do it to gain access to the passives.

Amottica wrote: »

As for the point about cutting off healers to increase damage seemingly causing players to die. Well, that is a personal choice each player has to make. If they are having problems surviving with the manner they are trying to play then maybe the player should consider changing things up a bit.

A guildmate told me how he was told to cure their vampirism (before the said changes) because he was dying to fire too much. Well, sounds like the same thing is being discussed in this thread, just with a twist due to the new design. So it does not seem the new design is against the rules of the game. Just my opinion tossed in here at the end.

The issue isn't the risk-reward playstyle itself. The issue is that playstyle demands self-reliance, which inevitably reduces damage. So you're essentially cutting out the healers interactions with you for minimal, if any, damage gain. The healer has their own contribution to the group reduced for little group benefit. It's an overall group negative, not just an individual negative.

Hope that clears things up

To your first point, only specific builds for meta rely on those two skills. Since meta builds tend to pick out the best skills that make sense. Using this as a measure would litterally8 suggest that every skill line and class in the game is a failure. I thnk we can see this is not a good measurement.

Even then, it is clearly a major advancement from where you stated the skill line was before the changes.

To the second point, playing raids in ESO already demands a lot of self-reliance. A player dies in ESO it is likely due to their action or inaction rather than what the healer did or did not do. This is not WoW where simply moving out of stupid and not standing in front of the boss unless you are the tank is sufficient.

Further, this is clearly not even an issue with organized groups since if a player is having survival issues a good raid leader will find out what the problem is and pretty much direct changes. Problem solved. In a pug group, one is already asking for issues.

Vevvev · August 2021

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability.

No it doesn't, if anything Hypnosis is absolutely worthless. Less range, still requires the target to look at you, and has no additional effects. Stupefy has a longer range so you can catch people as you close in, and if they don't have a purge if they try to run away they're snared for 5 seconds.

Other than that I agree with most of the post. Only here cause I got pinged.

Stx · August 2021

I have to disagree with your TLDR.

Vampire skills are anything but weak. Mist form is one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game. Arterial burst hits harder and costs less than any other instant magicka spammable. Vampire passives are also very powerful, mainly undeath and the 300 spell damage proc from using mist or sneak.

The skill tree isn't perfect, but its plenty powerful, and the abilities aren't any less interesting than any other skill tree in the game when you look at them from a mechanics perspective.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability.

No it doesn't, if anything Hypnosis is absolutely worthless. Less range, still requires the target to look at you, and has no additional effects. Stupefy has a longer range so you can catch people as you close in, and if they don't have a purge if they try to run away they're snared for 5 seconds.

Other than that I agree with most of the post. Only here cause I got pinged.

stupefy is the better morph both of them are just awful due to the RP and lack of other effects. it's just lackluster all around.

Vevvev · August 2021

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability.

No it doesn't, if anything Hypnosis is absolutely worthless. Less range, still requires the target to look at you, and has no additional effects. Stupefy has a longer range so you can catch people as you close in, and if they don't have a purge if they try to run away they're snared for 5 seconds.

Other than that I agree with most of the post. Only here cause I got pinged.

stupefy is the better morph both of them are just awful due to the RP and lack of other effects. it's just lackluster all around.

Agreed, if I was forced to use it I'd pick Stupefy since I have good time on target and would rather take the range and additional CC. But that rule of having them look at you is just mean because you can't land it in PvP reliably, and if an NPC spazzes out and does that weird 180 spin over and over you won't land the stun on them either. Someone suggested having it refund the Magicka cost if nobody gets stunned and I think that'd be a good compromise if ZOS wants to leave it as is. Waste too much Magicka just trying to land it once.

Elendir2am · August 2021

I wonder why some of the players in my guild got instruction to get infected with vampirism for veteran Rockgrove HM when it's so bad.

Vevvev · August 2021

Elendir2am wrote: »

I wonder why some of the players in my guild got instruction to get infected with vampirism for veteran Rockgrove HM when it's so bad.

Mistform and Undeath most likely. Mistform so the tank can survive that absolutely rediculous damage over time effect, and Undeath so the DPS don't vaporize instantly before a heal can touch them. The two things that are actually useful in the vampire kit are the only things used. No surprise there.

The rest of the kit is an incomplete mess that just doesn't work. If you go the safe route that is group friendly (aka spam Arterial Burst) you miss out on 66% of it's strengths and only take advantage of the 3.3% damage boost on the base damage for making the ability rank 4. Other spammables outDPS it if you can't reliably stay injured. As for the healing role... You basically leave Sated Fury toggled to boost your healing. Tanks is obviously mistform with Undeath as they won't be using Blood Scion or Vampiric Drain since there are better options out there.

Jameson18 · August 2021

Elendir2am wrote: »

I wonder why some of the players in my guild got instruction to get infected with vampirism for veteran Rockgrove HM when it's so bad.

Aside from that, it's also generating buckoo bucks for them right now for pvp as well. (gg undeath + pariah)

ESO_Nightingale · August 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability.

No it doesn't, if anything Hypnosis is absolutely worthless. Less range, still requires the target to look at you, and has no additional effects. Stupefy has a longer range so you can catch people as you close in, and if they don't have a purge if they try to run away they're snared for 5 seconds.

Other than that I agree with most of the post. Only here cause I got pinged.

stupefy is the better morph both of them are just awful due to the RP and lack of other effects. it's just lackluster all around.

Agreed, if I was forced to use it I'd pick Stupefy since I have good time on target and would rather take the range and additional CC. But that rule of having them look at you is just mean because you can't land it in PvP reliably, and if an NPC spazzes out and does that weird 180 spin over and over you won't land the stun on them either. Someone suggested having it refund the Magicka cost if nobody gets stunned and I think that'd be a good compromise if ZOS wants to leave it as is. Waste too much Magicka just trying to land it once.

I suggested that on another thread that is now on page 2 as of writing.

buttaface · August 2021

Disagree with OP and other naysayers. The point of the "new" vamp is not to have every skill useful to every build, but rather to fill out build weak spots. Want a magicka melee spammable like a DK but don't have one in your class or weapons? Now you do. Want a magicka fear but don't have one? Now you do. Want fast ult generation but don't have it in your build? Now you do.

Claims that vamp is all about undeath and mist are fallacious. When just -a little- built for, vamp ult is one of the, if not the strongest ult in the game. The "kiss curse" (lol) dmg toggle leads to all kinds of build variation and fun in pve and pvp. The fourth stage passive is extremely powerful in other than dungeon or trials play. Want all your magicka back while remaining invulnerable? Strap on Prisoner's and run around for a sec, magicka now FULL. All sorts of possibilities that I don't even think people realize in the vamp tree.

What they did with vamp was made something useful and fun that didn't utterly trivialize higher PvE or PvP, IMO job accomplished and well accomplished.

If there were some tweak needed, it would be a -small- reduction of normal skill cost in later stages. It's a bit harsh atm.

YandereGirlfriend · August 2021

buttaface wrote: »

Disagree with OP and other naysayers. The point of the "new" vamp is not to have every skill useful to every build, but rather to fill out build weak spots. Want a magicka melee spammable like a DK but don't have one in your class or weapons? Now you do. Want a magicka fear but don't have one? Now you do. Want fast ult generation but don't have it in your build? Now you do.

Claims that vamp is all about undeath and mist are fallacious. When just -a little- built for, vamp ult is one of the, if not the strongest ult in the game. The "kiss curse" (lol) dmg toggle leads to all kinds of build variation and fun in pve and pvp. The fourth stage passive is extremely powerful in other than dungeon or trials play. Want all your magicka back while remaining invulnerable? Strap on Prisoner's and run around for a sec, magicka now FULL. All sorts of possibilities that I don't even think people realize in the vamp tree.

What they did with vamp was made something useful and fun that didn't utterly trivialize higher PvE or PvP, IMO job accomplished and well accomplished.

If there were some tweak needed, it would be a -small- reduction of normal skill cost in later stages. It's a bit harsh atm.

There is potential in many of the skills but most of them are inferior when compared with other competing options.

There are also several "dead" morphs of skills that could easily be repurposed to better flesh out the overall vampire kit.

Theignson · August 2021

Vamp is very good with a NB, no speed penalty in stealth, plus the WD boost when you strike from stealth. So I stay in stage 2. But I dont use any of the other skills except sometimes the ultimate

buttaface · August 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is potential in many of the skills but most of them are inferior when compared with other competing options.[/quote]

Disagree, and also skips over the entire first paragraph of my reply. The point is not to be superior skills, but to fill in build gaps without being unbalanced and to add some flavor. Finally, most of what is in vamp is unique so as a matter of fact and not opinion, there are several skills/passives with no competing options whatsoever. There is no frenzy toggle, strike from the shadows, BFB, insta ult drain or stage four passive elsewhere in the game.

YandereGirlfriend · August 2021

buttaface wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is potential in many of the skills but most of them are inferior when compared with other competing options.

Disagree, and also skips over the entire first paragraph of my reply. The point is not to be superior skills, but to fill in build gaps without being unbalanced and to add some flavor. Finally, most of what is in vamp is unique so as a matter of fact and not opinion, there are several skills/passives with no competing options whatsoever. There is no frenzy toggle, strike from the shadows, BFB, insta ult drain or stage four passive elsewhere in the game.

[/quote]

I mean, if you're the one person on the planet who thinks that the vampire stun is better than class stuns or even the Fighters Guild stun, then more power to you. Just know that you're far in the minority on that account.

Same thing goes for Drain - or at least one morph of Drain. The ult-gen morph, as I stated in the other thread, is useful but only really on a PvE tank doing relatively casual content. That's a pretty niche use-case to dedicate scarce ability slots from the tree toward. The Stamina morph is straight-up bad though and I am yet to see it used by anyone in-game during any type of content.

I actually like Toggle as well but does it really need two different morphs that do basically the same thing? Not in my eyes. Keep one and do something more interesting with the other.

Mist Form is fine but seeing anyone actually use Blood Mist is rare. In PvP, it's always the Major Expedition morph because moving with stock movement speed will get you killed even with 75% mitigation. If someone uses Blood Mist in RP PvE content then that's good for them but, again, is that really worth hogging up an entire morph?

Even the spammable - do we really need two melee morphs? How do we have a vampire spammable that does not also have a life-steal component on it? Talk about a missed opportunity. Speaking of opportunities, can we get one of the morphs to cost Stamina and/or scale off of max stats? Werewolf just hybridized its bonuses so doing the same for some aspects of vampire shouldn't be off the table.

Overall though, vampire has so many redundant (and bad) morphs that it completely fails to provide any means to: a) steal health from enemies, b) heal others, c) provide a class-agnostic DoT, d) provide ANY named buffs/debuffs, e) provide a gap-closer, etc. Those are pretty damning failures given that the on-paper idea from the developers was that they wanted the player to use more vampire abilities than they did before.

Most players who care about vampires would actually like to be able to use 100% vampire skills to shape their entire build around. But that is impossible with so many missing core pieces. Yet we have two morphs of a bad stun, two morphs of Toggle, etc. It is both extravagant and wasteful - especially when any player can see that NPC vampires have access to all manner of amazing skills that precisely fill those holes.

And the most exasperating part is that all of this and more was communicated to the developers repeatedly over the last year but nothing at all has been done to improve the vampire kit.

Stx · August 2021

Magicka warden doesn't have a reliable stun.. so stupefy actually fits nicely in their kit. Bar space is an issue but that aside.

Amottica · August 2021

buttaface wrote: »

Disagree, and also skips over the entire first paragraph of my reply. The point is not to be superior skills, but to fill in build gaps without being unbalanced and to add some flavor. Finally, most of what is in vamp is unique so as a matter of fact and not opinion, there are several skills/passives with no competing options whatsoever. There is no frenzy toggle, strike from the shadows, BFB, insta ult drain or stage four passive elsewhere in the game.

I agree. Granted, I am a newer player but people have different interests and I would expect the vampire skill line does not have to be the center of meta builds. I fail to see how every option can be meta.

@Stx makes a valid point that not every class has the same options as other classes.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2021

Stx wrote: »

Magicka warden doesn't have a reliable stun.. so stupefy actually fits nicely in their kit. Bar space is an issue but that aside.

Not even then, because it's reliant on an enemy facing you it's also unreliable, not to mention a colossal magicka drain.

JayKwellen · August 2021

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability.

No it doesn't, if anything Hypnosis is absolutely worthless. Less range, still requires the target to look at you, and has no additional effects. Stupefy has a longer range so you can catch people as you close in, and if they don't have a purge if they try to run away they're snared for 5 seconds.

Other than that I agree with most of the post. Only here cause I got pinged.

stupefy is the better morph both of them are just awful due to the RP and lack of other effects. it's just lackluster all around.

Agreed, if I was forced to use it I'd pick Stupefy since I have good time on target and would rather take the range and additional CC. But that rule of having them look at you is just mean because you can't land it in PvP reliably, and if an NPC spazzes out and does that weird 180 spin over and over you won't land the stun on them either. Someone suggested having it refund the Magicka cost if nobody gets stunned and I think that'd be a good compromise if ZOS wants to leave it as is. Waste too much Magicka just trying to land it once.

I suggested that on another thread that is now on page 2 as of writing.

I think it would still be a trash fire in PvP unless the "facing you" requirement is dropped, simply because it's impossible to ever know where anyone actually is since we're all pretty much permanently positionally desynched all the time.

Still, if it refunded the cost when it didn't work it might end up worth considering, because as it stands now the cost is unacceptable when it misses >50% of the time anyway. Plus it's not like I'd have access to any other good unblockable offensive stuns to use in its place. And before anyone mentions it yes, I know about using turn evil, and no, I still think it's a horrible idea for mag -- just because it can work doesn't mean it's a good option.

Speaking of turn evil, that's probably what bugs me the most about hypnosis. ZOS had no problem taking NB's unique ability, turning it stam, and making it available to everyone (while also making better than NBs own fear too). So how come mag instead gets this uniquely awful skill that's not really good for anything but RP?

Sephyr · August 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is potential in many of the skills but most of them are inferior when compared with other competing options.

Disagree, and also skips over the entire first paragraph of my reply. The point is not to be superior skills, but to fill in build gaps without being unbalanced and to add some flavor. Finally, most of what is in vamp is unique so as a matter of fact and not opinion, there are several skills/passives with no competing options whatsoever. There is no frenzy toggle, strike from the shadows, BFB, insta ult drain or stage four passive elsewhere in the game.

I mean, if you're the one person on the planet who thinks that the vampire stun is better than class stuns or even the Fighters Guild stun, then more power to you. Just know that you're far in the minority on that account.

Same thing goes for Drain - or at least one morph of Drain. The ult-gen morph, as I stated in the other thread, is useful but only really on a PvE tank doing relatively casual content. That's a pretty niche use-case to dedicate scarce ability slots from the tree toward. The Stamina morph is straight-up bad though and I am yet to see it used by anyone in-game during any type of content.

I actually like Toggle as well but does it really need two different morphs that do basically the same thing? Not in my eyes. Keep one and do something more interesting with the other.

Mist Form is fine but seeing anyone actually use Blood Mist is rare. In PvP, it's always the Major Expedition morph because moving with stock movement speed will get you killed even with 75% mitigation. If someone uses Blood Mist in RP PvE content then that's good for them but, again, is that really worth hogging up an entire morph?

Even the spammable - do we really need two melee morphs? How do we have a vampire spammable that does not also have a life-steal component on it? Talk about a missed opportunity. Speaking of opportunities, can we get one of the morphs to cost Stamina and/or scale off of max stats? Werewolf just hybridized its bonuses so doing the same for some aspects of vampire shouldn't be off the table.

Overall though, vampire has so many redundant (and bad) morphs that it completely fails to provide any means to: a) steal health from enemies, b) heal others, c) provide a class-agnostic DoT, d) provide ANY named buffs/debuffs, e) provide a gap-closer, etc. Those are pretty damning failures given that the on-paper idea from the developers was that they wanted the player to use more vampire abilities than they did before.

Most players who care about vampires would actually like to be able to use 100% vampire skills to shape their entire build around. But that is impossible with so many missing core pieces. Yet we have two morphs of a bad stun, two morphs of Toggle, etc. It is both extravagant and wasteful - especially when any player can see that NPC vampires have access to all manner of amazing skills that precisely fill those holes.

And the most exasperating part is that all of this and more was communicated to the developers repeatedly over the last year but nothing at all has been done to improve the vampire kit.

What's interesting is that a lot of the people coming in saying "Vampire" is fine don't really understand why topics like these matter. But then again, I've given up trying to participate in these threads because trying to reason with folks who don't understand that it makes the line better for everyone.

We lost a gap closer. I miss the old Bat Swarm.
We lost the ability to feed on enemy players. My PvP/RP guild disbanded because of it.
We lost a reliable stun and we lost reliable drain. Two stun sources (couldn't stack it, but both were reliable) gone.

I don't give two guars about Supernatural Recovery. Those four things were the only things that mattered to the most dedicated vampire communities out there and it's gone. Group gameplay with vampires is abysmal with one spammable practically useless because of it's mechanics. Ramping spell/physical damage isn't that exciting and it's never ticked the box on what it meant to be a vampire. People don't have to feed still to reap one of the best passives in the game (just like Supernatural Recovery was). I could go on and on, but your post was pretty on point why many of us just gave up.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2021

JayKwellen wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Hypnosis outclasses stupefy in usability.

No it doesn't, if anything Hypnosis is absolutely worthless. Less range, still requires the target to look at you, and has no additional effects. Stupefy has a longer range so you can catch people as you close in, and if they don't have a purge if they try to run away they're snared for 5 seconds.

Other than that I agree with most of the post. Only here cause I got pinged.

stupefy is the better morph both of them are just awful due to the RP and lack of other effects. it's just lackluster all around.

Agreed, if I was forced to use it I'd pick Stupefy since I have good time on target and would rather take the range and additional CC. But that rule of having them look at you is just mean because you can't land it in PvP reliably, and if an NPC spazzes out and does that weird 180 spin over and over you won't land the stun on them either. Someone suggested having it refund the Magicka cost if nobody gets stunned and I think that'd be a good compromise if ZOS wants to leave it as is. Waste too much Magicka just trying to land it once.

I suggested that on another thread that is now on page 2 as of writing.

I think it would still be a trash fire in PvP unless the "facing you" requirement is dropped, simply because it's impossible to ever know where anyone actually is since we're all pretty much permanently positionally desynched all the time.

Still, if it refunded the cost when it didn't work it might end up worth considering, because as it stands now the cost is unacceptable when it misses >50% of the time anyway. Plus it's not like I'd have access to any other good unblockable offensive stuns to use in its place. And before anyone mentions it yes, I know about using turn evil, and no, I still think it's a horrible idea for mag -- just because it can work doesn't mean it's a good option.

Speaking of turn evil, that's probably what bugs me the most about hypnosis. ZOS had no problem taking NB's unique ability, turning it stam, and making it available to everyone (while also making better than NBs own fear too). So how come mag instead gets this uniquely awful skill that's not really good for anything but RP?

oh yeah i totally agree, the facing requirement should be completely removed.

Vevvev · August 2021

Sephyr wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is potential in many of the skills but most of them are inferior when compared with other competing options.

Disagree, and also skips over the entire first paragraph of my reply. The point is not to be superior skills, but to fill in build gaps without being unbalanced and to add some flavor. Finally, most of what is in vamp is unique so as a matter of fact and not opinion, there are several skills/passives with no competing options whatsoever. There is no frenzy toggle, strike from the shadows, BFB, insta ult drain or stage four passive elsewhere in the game.

I mean, if you're the one person on the planet who thinks that the vampire stun is better than class stuns or even the Fighters Guild stun, then more power to you. Just know that you're far in the minority on that account.

Same thing goes for Drain - or at least one morph of Drain. The ult-gen morph, as I stated in the other thread, is useful but only really on a PvE tank doing relatively casual content. That's a pretty niche use-case to dedicate scarce ability slots from the tree toward. The Stamina morph is straight-up bad though and I am yet to see it used by anyone in-game during any type of content.

I actually like Toggle as well but does it really need two different morphs that do basically the same thing? Not in my eyes. Keep one and do something more interesting with the other.

Mist Form is fine but seeing anyone actually use Blood Mist is rare. In PvP, it's always the Major Expedition morph because moving with stock movement speed will get you killed even with 75% mitigation. If someone uses Blood Mist in RP PvE content then that's good for them but, again, is that really worth hogging up an entire morph?

Even the spammable - do we really need two melee morphs? How do we have a vampire spammable that does not also have a life-steal component on it? Talk about a missed opportunity. Speaking of opportunities, can we get one of the morphs to cost Stamina and/or scale off of max stats? Werewolf just hybridized its bonuses so doing the same for some aspects of vampire shouldn't be off the table.

Overall though, vampire has so many redundant (and bad) morphs that it completely fails to provide any means to: a) steal health from enemies, b) heal others, c) provide a class-agnostic DoT, d) provide ANY named buffs/debuffs, e) provide a gap-closer, etc. Those are pretty damning failures given that the on-paper idea from the developers was that they wanted the player to use more vampire abilities than they did before.

Most players who care about vampires would actually like to be able to use 100% vampire skills to shape their entire build around. But that is impossible with so many missing core pieces. Yet we have two morphs of a bad stun, two morphs of Toggle, etc. It is both extravagant and wasteful - especially when any player can see that NPC vampires have access to all manner of amazing skills that precisely fill those holes.

And the most exasperating part is that all of this and more was communicated to the developers repeatedly over the last year but nothing at all has been done to improve the vampire kit.

What's interesting is that a lot of the people coming in saying "Vampire" is fine don't really understand why topics like these matter. But then again, I've given up trying to participate in these threads because trying to reason with folks who don't understand that it makes the line better for everyone.

We lost a gap closer. I miss the old Bat Swarm.
We lost the ability to feed on enemy players. My PvP/RP guild disbanded because of it.
We lost a reliable stun and we lost reliable drain. Two stun sources (couldn't stack it, but both were reliable) gone.

I don't give two guars about Supernatural Recovery. Those four things were the only things that mattered to the most dedicated vampire communities out there and it's gone. Group gameplay with vampires is abysmal with one spammable practically useless because of it's mechanics. Ramping spell/physical damage isn't that exciting and it's never ticked the box on what it meant to be a vampire. People don't have to feed still to reap one of the best passives in the game (just like Supernatural Recovery was). I could go on and on, but your post was pretty on point why many of us just gave up.

I haven't given up, but then again the Pale Order changes have really... really.. really... hurt. It broke my vampire build that made the current version of vampire feel vampiric. Thanks to that ring I actually kind of praised the vampire rework for a bit, but now I've gone back to my old build after the rework dropped, and I hate it. I'd be better off sticking with my regular Dragonknight abilities, and it sucks because it's hard to sustain that stuff even as a mortal. Blood for Blood + Pale Order Ring made vampire fun and powerful, but with the amount of group content I participate in... I can't do it anymore. I don't have the passive self healing Sorcerers do, and to fix the issue with a CP star is all well and good but that means in Battlegrounds my build is absolute trash. That ring was the much needed glue to hold the whole thing together, but outside solo content vampire is not group friendly. You can't even get the cross healing from allies in Cyrodiil even if you went lone wolf!

Yamenstein · August 2021

Zos ain't going to be touching vampire skill line as a whole for some time. Might here some changes to some of the skills numbers wise. The promoted the revamp. It failed in my opinion. And in my opinion they aren't going to bother with it. Focus will be on what comes next. New skill line, new companions, new sets, etc. They will be themed around the new chapter you sell the chapter. Vampire chapter was greymoor.

Artim_X · August 2021

The fact that ZOS did not turn the og gap closer morph of bats into an individual skill is a crime in itself *looks at eviscerate*.

Vevvev · August 2021

Artim_X wrote: »

The fact that ZOS did not turn the og gap closer morph of bats into an individual skill is a crime in itself *looks at eviscerate*.

Actually... wait.... what if they changed Blood Scion to always have a bat swarm, and then turned Swarming Scion into Clouding Scion that gets a gap closing attack from the old bat swarm, Materialize? Then Perfect Scion wouldn't be losing out on the bat swarm, and the only fallout I can imagine from such a change being the annoyance of the bat swarm while running around Bastion Sanguinaris.

Blinx · August 2021

as someone who was bit 2 days ago, and with no prior knowledge of what this skill line was before, its lackluster, doesn't feel vampirey at all

my character certainly looks the part tho, and I like the ult, but if I stay vamp, I'd only use vamp skills in easy content, none of them help out a group that I can see

Amottica · August 2021

Sephyr wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There is potential in many of the skills but most of them are inferior when compared with other competing options.

Disagree, and also skips over the entire first paragraph of my reply. The point is not to be superior skills, but to fill in build gaps without being unbalanced and to add some flavor. Finally, most of what is in vamp is unique so as a matter of fact and not opinion, there are several skills/passives with no competing options whatsoever. There is no frenzy toggle, strike from the shadows, BFB, insta ult drain or stage four passive elsewhere in the game.

I mean, if you're the one person on the planet who thinks that the vampire stun is better than class stuns or even the Fighters Guild stun, then more power to you. Just know that you're far in the minority on that account.

Same thing goes for Drain - or at least one morph of Drain. The ult-gen morph, as I stated in the other thread, is useful but only really on a PvE tank doing relatively casual content. That's a pretty niche use-case to dedicate scarce ability slots from the tree toward. The Stamina morph is straight-up bad though and I am yet to see it used by anyone in-game during any type of content.

I actually like Toggle as well but does it really need two different morphs that do basically the same thing? Not in my eyes. Keep one and do something more interesting with the other.

Mist Form is fine but seeing anyone actually use Blood Mist is rare. In PvP, it's always the Major Expedition morph because moving with stock movement speed will get you killed even with 75% mitigation. If someone uses Blood Mist in RP PvE content then that's good for them but, again, is that really worth hogging up an entire morph?

Even the spammable - do we really need two melee morphs? How do we have a vampire spammable that does not also have a life-steal component on it? Talk about a missed opportunity. Speaking of opportunities, can we get one of the morphs to cost Stamina and/or scale off of max stats? Werewolf just hybridized its bonuses so doing the same for some aspects of vampire shouldn't be off the table.

Overall though, vampire has so many redundant (and bad) morphs that it completely fails to provide any means to: a) steal health from enemies, b) heal others, c) provide a class-agnostic DoT, d) provide ANY named buffs/debuffs, e) provide a gap-closer, etc. Those are pretty damning failures given that the on-paper idea from the developers was that they wanted the player to use more vampire abilities than they did before.

Most players who care about vampires would actually like to be able to use 100% vampire skills to shape their entire build around. But that is impossible with so many missing core pieces. Yet we have two morphs of a bad stun, two morphs of Toggle, etc. It is both extravagant and wasteful - especially when any player can see that NPC vampires have access to all manner of amazing skills that precisely fill those holes.

And the most exasperating part is that all of this and more was communicated to the developers repeatedly over the last year but nothing at all has been done to improve the vampire kit.

What's interesting is that a lot of the people coming in saying "Vampire" is fine don't really understand why topics like these matter. But then again, I've given up trying to participate in these threads because trying to reason with folks who don't understand that it makes the line better for everyone.

I can understand and respect people having different opinions. After all, what one person finds works well for them would be different than what another person finds benefits their build. We all have different playstyles and interests from PvP, to raids, to whatever.

In the end, I do not think we need to have players agree with our perspective or should even expect them to change their mind as many of the opinions I see in these threads have validity from differing perspectives.

In the end, it is for Zenimax to determine what works well for the game which includes making sure something like the skill line and specific skills are not to not lend to overpowered builds.

Spurius_Lucilius · August 2021

They reworked Vampire skills to be bunch of synergies on paper that don’t really work or fit together well in real gameplay.
These “synergies” between skills need changes in order to be viable and balanced.

jlmurra2 · August 2021

Prior to Greymoor's release there were so many vampire players. I encountered so many each time I was playing, and with good reason, the passives benefits far outweighed the negative values. If you were building a tank vampirism was far too beneficial to pass up. The extra regen was great for most other builds as well.

Post Greymoor it is rare I see player vampires.

It seems we have now experienced vampirism being too useful, and now not useful enough, or even detrimental to builds in ESO. I hope someday vampirism is re-addressed. I wish vampirism offered a alternate way to play magical, stamina, and tank builds that was well balanced vs non vampirism builds.