Thoughts on the obvious new magicka based paradigm and skill floor raise in PvE?

buttaface · August 2021

1. Anyone thinking about it for a second will realize that allowing builds to easily incorporate major maim, major vulnerability and major protection on the same build totally changes all but the highest level PvE in ESO. With relative ease, many builds can also stack minor vulnerability/minor maim and minor protection as well, leading to a 15% swing in damage, mitigation and protection... ON THE SAME MAGICKA DPS BUILD. Astounding, and very easy to get other than a trivial level of PvP to get flare. What are your conclusions about this if it goes live as it appears it will? Mine are GOOD. ESO has always been a casual, mass oriented game based on a single player franchise, never fit for or competent as a "ESport" type of game, so this massive skill floor raise is fine.
2. It's obvious that magicka or hybrids, with staff based major maim are the winners, or at least teams that incorporate this are the winner. Why play stam in PVE any more with this massive shift? Thoughts?
3. Have you gotten/leveled these skills on all your magicka alts? Better get to Cyro for that flare if not for that major prot.
4. Is there ANY reason to bring ANY tank or healer to ANY PvE content going forward other than a dps who slots some kind of pull? In the new paradigm it's all about dps and who has "taunt/debuff" duty, EVERYONE needs to pull their own DPS weight. Let each toon manage its own penetration and self heals, other than gotcha mechanics, nothing gonna kill your majorly protected ass with its normal damage if it's perma maimed. Is there ANY reason to be other than almost all light armor with 2-3 medium? ANY reason to EVER use heavy armor again in the new paradigm? I can't think of any.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Fennwitty · August 2021

I think you're saying that because a mag DPS can use a frost staff and slot an alliance war skill, they're invincible?

Boss big attack that can one-shot a DPS with 20k hp will still one-shot the same DPS at even 20% less effectiveness.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

The one shot mechs are still one shot mechs regardless of how many debuffs you can manage to stack on the boss. There just some thing a DPS will never survive. There are enrage mechanics out there that tanks in the current meta can’t survive. Now maybe some of those 25k ticks of certian mechs that are killing you currently will only hit for 20k and allow you to stay in the fight but if you think for even 1 second you can survive being pokeballed in the face in a vCR portal you’re in for a surprise!

buttaface · August 2021

Fennwitty wrote: »

I think you're saying that because a mag DPS can use a frost staff and slot an alliance war skill, they're invincible?

Boss big attack that can one-shot a DPS with 20k hp will still one-shot the same DPS at even 20% less effectiveness.

The post couldn't have been more clear and written on an 8th grade level, the fallacious reply above notwithstanding.

buttaface · August 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

The one shot mechs are still one shot mechs regardless of how many debuffs you can manage to stack on the boss. There just some thing a DPS will never survive. There are enrage mechanics out there that tanks in the current meta can’t survive. Now maybe some of those 25k ticks of certian mechs that are killing you currently will only hit for 20k and allow you to stay in the fight but if you think for even 1 second you can survive being pokeballed in the face in a vCR portal you’re in for a surprise!

Clearly addressed the above concern in the OP.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

buttaface wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

The one shot mechs are still one shot mechs regardless of how many debuffs you can manage to stack on the boss. There just some thing a DPS will never survive. There are enrage mechanics out there that tanks in the current meta can’t survive. Now maybe some of those 25k ticks of certian mechs that are killing you currently will only hit for 20k and allow you to stay in the fight but if you think for even 1 second you can survive being pokeballed in the face in a vCR portal you’re in for a surprise!

Clearly addressed the above concern in the OP.

Some mechanics though aren’t gotcha mechanics at all. Like vSS ice cage healing needs to be done by an experienced healer sure a couple DPS could team up and heal a player out of the cage but at the expense of DPS on the boss which will equate to more ice atros over time all of which have a cleave that will one shot any non tanks. Hard mode is even more chaotic with double ice cages and a classic heal check during a phase where those atros need to be controlled.

When it comes to fire boss no dps is holding an iron servant let alone 2 or 3. No gotcha mechanics there, just the way the fight is built. Final boss same thing with it’s heal check and marked for death mech. Oh and if those 2H adds aren’t controlled on flight phase it’s an instant death. Whichever DPS is on 2H add duty better be a roll dodge machine.

Honestly though I would love to see an all DPS comp have a go at some of these trials but my feeling is they would get stuck on the first pull of vHRC.

Fennwitty · August 2021

buttaface wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

I think you're saying that because a mag DPS can use a frost staff and slot an alliance war skill, they're invincible?

Boss big attack that can one-shot a DPS with 20k hp will still one-shot the same DPS at even 20% less effectiveness.

The post couldn't have been more clear and written on an 8th grade level, the fallacious reply above notwithstanding.

Then my reading level was simply not sufficient.

The argument seems to be that slotting Revealing Flare (as changed on PTS) passively grants major protection. Major Protection currently is a -10% damage taken effect.

I agree that isn't a trivial number.

You say Major Vulnerability is going to now be possible easily for magicka characters -- I don't see why exactly outside of Necromancer there's a change here.

Major Maim is proposed as a new effect for Ice staff Frost Clench morph, the one that taunts. So if you're putting major maim on the enemy using frost clench, you're also the tank. Major Maim currently is a -10% damage done debuff on the target.

So the net effect if you're a magicka character slotting Revealing Flare for 10% damage reduction, and taunting to apply Major Maim to the enemy (for a max of 5 seconds) ... you're still going to die if you're really a DPS character.

I don't understand how it follows that tanks and heavy armor are no longer necessary.

oterWitz · August 2021

Fennwitty wrote: »

So the net effect if you're a magicka character slotting Revealing Flare for 10% damage reduction, and taunting to apply Major Maim to the enemy (for a max of 5 seconds) ... you're still going to die if you're really a DPS character.

I wonder how many fake tanks will queue up like this

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

oterWitz wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

So the net effect if you're a magicka character slotting Revealing Flare for 10% damage reduction, and taunting to apply Major Maim to the enemy (for a max of 5 seconds) ... you're still going to die if you're really a DPS character.

I wonder how many fake tanks will queue up like this

The are already gonna queue regardless, may as well just go with it!

buttaface · August 2021

OK, everyone reading this already knows that characters can SWITCH GEAR to handle certain mechanics. We... all... know... this... already. The topic of this thread is that the massive skill floor raise in this patch will change the overall PvE paradigm into DPS heavy teams and will utterly obviate the need for dedicated tanks and healers in a VAST majority of content... other... than...those... very... few... instances of mechanics that will still require a tank or healer to... press a button... and switch back and forth from a pure DPS team. I think in a good way, others may not agree. Will expect many tank and healer heavy players will likely not like the results that we all are know are coming with these massive changes.

Now, is anyone actually interested in discussing the topic? the clearly stated topic? Agree or disagree as to it being a good thing for the game? Or just more nitpicking?

fizl101 · August 2021

Lets mention a few things -

Switching gear for certain mechanics - relatively easy on a PC using an add-on like dressing room. On console, want to wait 5-10 minutes while everyone gets changed for the next fight in the middle of the trial and changes CP points or skills?

If I am in sunspire and a DD uses a taunt and faces the dragon in the direction of the puddle of DDs all doing damage I'm pretty sure they would all be unimpressed (one example, there are plenty). The job of the tank is to distract as well as make the fight easier. Give that job to a DD then you are losing their DPS and making them a tank.

There are such a thing as stam characters. They like playing end game too. There are people who like tanking and like healing. For fun I have run no tank/no healer trials (and have even done a no DD trial). I can honestly say I cannot see any of them becoming the norm.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

buttaface wrote: »

OK, everyone reading this already knows that characters can SWITCH GEAR to handle certain mechanics. We... all... know... this... already. The topic of this thread is that the massive skill floor raise in this patch will change the overall PvE paradigm into DPS heavy teams and will utterly obviate the need for dedicated tanks and healers in a VAST majority of content... other... than...those... very... few... instances of mechanics that will still require a tank or healer to... press a button... and switch back and forth from a pure DPS team. I think in a good way, others may not agree. Will expect many tank and healer heavy players will likely not like the results that we all are know are coming with these massive changes.

Now, is anyone actually interested in discussing the topic? the clearly stated topic? Agree or disagree as to it being a good thing for the game? Or just more nitpicking?

Throw out the trials and 90% of the content in this game can be soloed if you build for it on the current live server. The reason the other 10% can’t be cleared is because mechs were introduced to keep us from soloing like pressure plates, switches, pin mechs and portals. Most of that stuff could already be soloed before the introduction of companions.

Jameson18 · August 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Throw out the trials and 90% of the content in this game can be soloed if you build for it on the current live server. The reason the other 10% can’t be cleared is because mechs were introduced to keep us from soloing like pressure plates, switches, pin mechs and portals. Most of that stuff could already be soloed before the introduction of companions.

Truth.

Gundug · August 2021

I think the original poster overestimates the amount of mitigation the upcoming changes will provide, particularly in challenging content.

The idea that every player in a group is going to take care of themselves and be more efficient with a full DPS crew is a fallacy. Having to slot and cast mitigation and healing skills as a DPS is always going to be a damage loss, made worse if every damage dealer in the group is required to do so.

There is a reason why excellent tanks and healers are critical to end game content, yet so many players grossly undervalue them. If you don’t play one of those roles in end game, you have no idea how much you miss by not having them. Tanks and healers free damage dealers up to do their comparatively easy job the best they possibly can, which is generally only to harm a target, and sometimes to perform certain mechanics. And as has been mentioned previously, no DPS is going to face tank some of the very high incoming damage found in challenging group content.

In content where you can get by without a tank or healer, these changes really don’t matter much. It might make it a little easier for some people to survive, but it won’t get anyone through hard group content without proper support.

buttaface · August 2021

Gundug wrote: »

I think the original poster overestimates the amount of mitigation the upcoming changes will provide, particularly in challenging content.

Playing a mitigation tank in many dungeons, no I don't overestimate. The new taunt and flare changes give a huge swing in mitigation as a matter of fact and not opinion. But once again, and again, and again, the point of the thread was never about mechanics, which will still need to be addressed, but the rest of the content, which -will- become more and more DPS centric once the patch is live. Rest of the above reply is ironically itself fallacious word salad.

WrathOfInnos · August 2021

Why wouldn’t stamina groups use all these same buffs? They generally have an easier time fitting a skill like Flare on their skill bar. Sure Mag gets 10% recovery for doing so, but Stam sustain is already pretty good.

Stamcro is superior to Magcro, and they have the better morph of colossus, so I’d say Major Vuln is easier for Stam groups.

Major Maim will be used by the tank, along with Major and Minor Breach.

jaws343 · August 2021

I just can't see any situation where a DPS would give up a bar slot that could buff their damage for unnecessary regen and major protection.

And another bar slot to put on a taunt skill, that will, if everyone else is running it, randomly have the boss target them and make them useless as a DPS during that period, if not outright kill them.

Spurius_Lucilius · August 2021

Who would waste a skill slot for 10% mitigation on a PVE dps? I don’t get it.

MudcrabAttack · August 2021

I’ve got two tanks, and can’t imagine this would work for a dps in a vet dlc trial.

One of my tanks is full spec dragon knight with nearly maxed mitigation for vet DLC, it pulls everything into a single spot on the floor. Trash mobs are decimated when the dps know what they’re doing. I can buff DPS with all the standard tank debuff / buff things, usually dungeon runs go very smoothly and quickly, it’s actually a bit dull

My second tank is a full blown dps stamblade archer with inner rage that I occasionally take into non dlc vet stuff, tanking for friends who never play tanks. Basically all damage that Isn’t mitigated by medium armor is healed by reaving blows cp, assassins scourge, killers blade, leeching strikes, or vigor. DPS suffers quite a lot since I’m facing the front of of bosses/mobs, and blocking on occasion which interrupts lethal arrow. My meme bow build tanking setup is usually 50% of my usual stamblade DPS, which is still 10x more dps than my actual tank. The group and I don’t get most standard dps buffs or debuffs like breach/ minor courage/ crusher enchantment / neatly stacked mobs. Overall group dps is really low, lower than it would be on my actual tank, but we’re just having fun. Your suggestions can be applied to this stamina nightblade dps tank for much better survival and possibly even higher dps if I go with the inner beast damage buff.

With medium armor perhaps I wouldn’t need maim, but I could even slot a maelstrom ice staff for improved blocking and get the huge light attack buffs while picking up major main from a skill swap. I’m really curious now, and might even be able to take it into some vet dlcs, but group dps will be even worse since I’ll be blocking and dodging more frequently in addition to adding the new mitigating skills, just like DPS would drop further for a magic build in the same situation.