Hmm. Magdens do have a stun. It's called Arctic Blast. You might not like the skill, but you can't say they don't have a stun. I dusted mine off for PvP this week. I wanted to try Death Dealer's Fete and was surprised how viable mag-stacking is again, although IMO you do want to sacrifice everything and get to the 55K magicka mark without Northern Storm. At that point the shield (Dampen) holds up well enough and your pressure in duels is pretty high. Cliff Racer sits at around an 11K tooltip, Deep Fissure at 16K+. That said the class still has all the old problems. The shield is even more brittle than in years past. Two decent opponents and you're basically done for immediately. No escape mechanic. No speed. Don't get me started on Bird of Prey. I had to switch to RAT at least. No execute. People recover from execute range 9 times out of 10. No reliable / comboable stun. It holds up in a duel against a sorc (defensively at least), because the healing is pretty good and Living Trellis is cheap. That's about it. In open world PvP sorc holds all the aces. There is no reason to play a magden over a sorc. I suppose these are the complaints of a solo player. In group play magden arguably has AOE utility that sorc lacks. I will say that Northern Storm plus whatever other damage you're putting out is pretty good at wiping out nightblades.
The main issue I have with magden is that the above makes for a boring class to play. This class is famous for it's buff coverage, but buffing up is not engaging gameplay. The class lacks situational skills. I know not everyone can be a magplar or a nightblade, but gap closers and executes - also Streak - those are situational skills that make a character engaging to play, at least for me. Those are skills that are not part of some predetermined rotation. Magden is the class that mindlessly fires a broadside (Shalks) every 3 seconds and hopes they kill someone. If that doesn't work they surround themselves with some additional AOE. I always found it boring to play, but maybe that's intentional. It arguably makes for beginner-friendly builds and perhaps ones that work in Cyro lag. I wouldn't know. I hardly play there when Cyro is busy.
xHotguy6pack wrote: »Mag Warden still better than mag dk.
Let's address the PvE points you brought up:
1. Sustain, this one is mute in trial environment.
2. Saying deep fissure is a high cost ability, when in fact it costs less than a spammable.
3. Bear dies in arenas. While it is a bit annoying having a semi aoe spammable does wonders in cleaning things before bear dies, not only that the mag morph brings him right back anyway. If it is dying a lot, that's a you problem. Not a bear problem.
4. Playing iceden bringing no group benefits - this point is straight up false. Brittle is a thing.
5. Magdens not pulling huge numbers - they are not top dogs in dps, sure, but there are always only 1 or 2 classes that are anyway, and magdens have their aoe damage without sacrificing anything, which is highest of all 6 classes.
All in all your PvE assessment of magden felt... Just not true.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Let's address the PvE points you brought up:
1. Sustain, this one is mute in trial environment.
2. Saying deep fissure is a high cost ability, when in fact it costs less than a spammable.
3. Bear dies in arenas. While it is a bit annoying having a semi aoe spammable does wonders in cleaning things before bear dies, not only that the mag morph brings him right back anyway. If it is dying a lot, that's a you problem. Not a bear problem.
4. Playing iceden bringing no group benefits - this point is straight up false. Brittle is a thing.
5. Magdens not pulling huge numbers - they are not top dogs in dps, sure, but there are always only 1 or 2 classes that are anyway, and magdens have their aoe damage without sacrificing anything, which is highest of all 6 classes.
All in all your PvE assessment of magden felt... Just not true.
Magden sustain is pretty terrible, even in optimized trial groups with multiple sustain sets. And if you add more group sustain support than every other class starts oversustaining with Bahsei. Relative to the other classes, magden sustain is a problem (probably also a problem for DK if they weren’t getting 129 Magicka Recovery from Z’en’s).
They’re #3 for single target DPS (after Nightblade and pet Sorc), and about the same ranking in AoE (after Necro, and maybe Templar?). I’m not complaining about this, seems pretty balanced IMO.
UntilValhalla13 wrote: »Magden is low-key one of the top mag dps classes in PvE at the moment... They hit like a truck. They're also fun to play because, they're like necros, except warden skills actually work.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Let's address the PvE points you brought up:
1. Sustain, this one is mute in trial environment.
2. Saying deep fissure is a high cost ability, when in fact it costs less than a spammable.
3. Bear dies in arenas. While it is a bit annoying having a semi aoe spammable does wonders in cleaning things before bear dies, not only that the mag morph brings him right back anyway. If it is dying a lot, that's a you problem. Not a bear problem.
4. Playing iceden bringing no group benefits - this point is straight up false. Brittle is a thing.
5. Magdens not pulling huge numbers - they are not top dogs in dps, sure, but there are always only 1 or 2 classes that are anyway, and magdens have their aoe damage without sacrificing anything, which is highest of all 6 classes.
All in all your PvE assessment of magden felt... Just not true.
Magden sustain is pretty terrible, even in optimized trial groups with multiple sustain sets. And if you add more group sustain support than every other class starts oversustaining with Bahsei. Relative to the other classes, magden sustain is a problem (probably also a problem for DK if they weren’t getting 129 Magicka Recovery from Z’en’s).
They’re #3 for single target DPS (after Nightblade and pet Sorc), and about the same ranking in AoE (after Necro, and maybe Templar?). I’m not complaining about this, seems pretty balanced IMO.
Maybe the sustain point is fine, but I can't slide the necros having more aoe damage, ye sure necros have around 55% dmg aoe from st vs the magden 45%, but 25% of it (BB+arcanist) is so narrow that it won't cleave as many targets. Then again maybe I am used to dungeons where it is impossible to stack all trash properly.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »in part because Winter’s Revenge is instantly good
WrathOfInnos wrote: »I’ll add that Screaming Cliff Racer is a very weak skill. It is essentially Elemental Weapon without Spell Orb or status effects, Force Pulse without splash damage, or Swallow Soul without the HoT. To do good damage on Magden, step one is to forget SCR exists and go with a full DoT rotation. Since Exploiter CP was removed, Off-Balance is largely a meaningless debuff in PVE, and easily applied by a Wall of Storms if needed. The “up to 15% increase” from range is rarely usable in PVE, and even at max range it cannot compete with other spammables.
Ricochet Skull is a great example of what a class spammable should do. It’s Fire Damage for an increase of 15% damage with Encratis and Engulfing. It deals bonus damage every 3rd cast, and has a unique bounce mechanic that is helpful for cleaving adds.
I’m sure SCR will see even less use when Frost Reach goes live. It is without doubt the worst spammable in the game, and I’m eagerly awaiting the replacement.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »I’ll add that Screaming Cliff Racer is a very weak skill. It is essentially Elemental Weapon without Spell Orb or status effects, Force Pulse without splash damage, or Swallow Soul without the HoT. To do good damage on Magden, step one is to forget SCR exists and go with a full DoT rotation. Since Exploiter CP was removed, Off-Balance is largely a meaningless debuff in PVE, and easily applied by a Wall of Storms if needed. The “up to 15% increase” from range is rarely usable in PVE, and even at max range it cannot compete with other spammables.
Ricochet Skull is a great example of what a class spammable should do. It’s Fire Damage for an increase of 15% damage with Encratis and Engulfing. It deals bonus damage every 3rd cast, and has a unique bounce mechanic that is helpful for cleaving adds.
I’m sure SCR will see even less use when Frost Reach goes live. It is without doubt the worst spammable in the game, and I’m eagerly awaiting the replacement.
Agree, although it heals and grants 2% damage done while slotted, its a lackluster spammable.
As a MagDen main. I disagree with you in regards to PvE, Yes you need to use Inferno staves but so do all classes. Frost staff is getting a nice spammable which will help if playing double Frost which Warden gets a 10% boost too. MagDen with Double Inferno or Dual Wield is capable of 100k+ DPS on the trial dummy, which is more than required. In regards to Shalk, its AoE Breach, this helps with add pulls etc and is really useful, Tanks can only puncture one add at a time.
In PvP I would agree that MagDen could use a good single target stun (not a knock back), change Arctic Blast morph to not be a Health scaling skill, so that StamDen do not use it.
But also MagDen excels in group play in PvP, buffing and Supporting allies while being able to DPS.
ESO_Nightingale wrote: »As a MagDen main. I disagree with you in regards to PvE, Yes you need to use Inferno staves but so do all classes. Frost staff is getting a nice spammable which will help if playing double Frost which Warden gets a 10% boost too. MagDen with Double Inferno or Dual Wield is capable of 100k+ DPS on the trial dummy, which is more than required. In regards to Shalk, its AoE Breach, this helps with add pulls etc and is really useful, Tanks can only puncture one add at a time.
In PvP I would agree that MagDen could use a good single target stun (not a knock back), change Arctic Blast morph to not be a Health scaling skill, so that StamDen do not use it.
But also MagDen excels in group play in PvP, buffing and Supporting allies while being able to DPS.
Blast doesn't need to have a mag scaling heal, since green balance is where the dps should be getting heals from. That morph should just have healing dropped entirely so it can focus on damage dealing and being an offensive stun. Polar Wind staying as is is fine.
ESO_Nightingale wrote: »As a MagDen main. I disagree with you in regards to PvE, Yes you need to use Inferno staves but so do all classes. Frost staff is getting a nice spammable which will help if playing double Frost which Warden gets a 10% boost too. MagDen with Double Inferno or Dual Wield is capable of 100k+ DPS on the trial dummy, which is more than required. In regards to Shalk, its AoE Breach, this helps with add pulls etc and is really useful, Tanks can only puncture one add at a time.
In PvP I would agree that MagDen could use a good single target stun (not a knock back), change Arctic Blast morph to not be a Health scaling skill, so that StamDen do not use it.
But also MagDen excels in group play in PvP, buffing and Supporting allies while being able to DPS.
Blast doesn't need to have a mag scaling heal, since green balance is where the dps should be getting heals from. That morph should just have healing dropped entirely so it can focus on damage dealing and being an offensive stun. Polar Wind staying as is is fine.
I didnt say that this morph should be a magicka scaling heal skill, just that it shouldn't be health scaling.
I'm not sure why people think magden is bad. They do great dps and in pvp they can hold their own just fine especially if you play dual wield vamp
I'm not sure why people think magden is bad. They do great dps and in pvp they can hold their own just fine especially if you play dual wield vamp
ESO_Nightingale wrote: »I'm not sure why people think magden is bad. They do great dps and in pvp they can hold their own just fine especially if you play dual wield vamp
because in pvp it's self healing is plain bad, just because it has major mending doesn't mean it's actually good at healing itself, it's healing skills have lower tool tips than any other class, or they're situationally effective, it's the only class where it's better at healing groups than itself. it's damage is mediocre and it's sustain isn't good, it's stun options are all bad. it's good at group support and that's about it, if you want to play something something similar play stamden or magcro. both are much better. in pve they're fine except for frostden which still needs help.
Definitely sounds like build/rotation issues rather than the class. People here would be happy to help, though probably best to start your own thread if you want it (Oh and PS, when people parse for dps numbers they do it on a 21m iron atro which has buffs and debuffs which roughly double dps compared to using a different dummy. I hope you didn't beat on the atro for over half an hour to get 9k! You'd be more likely sitting around 20k is my bet.)nightstrike wrote: »I do about 9k dps.... maybe it's just a hard build to play, and I don't know how to do it effectively.
ESO_Nightingale wrote: »I'm not sure why people think magden is bad. They do great dps and in pvp they can hold their own just fine especially if you play dual wield vamp
because in pvp it's self healing is plain bad, just because it has major mending doesn't mean it's actually good at healing itself, it's healing skills have lower tool tips than any other class, or they're situationally effective, it's the only class where it's better at healing groups than itself. it's damage is mediocre and it's sustain isn't good, it's stun options are all bad. it's good at group support and that's about it, if you want to play something something similar play stamden or magcro. both are much better. in pve they're fine except for frostden which still needs help.
Rapid regen + living trellis + arctic blast seems like a pretty potent healing combo. Lotus adds a small amount too.
I guess they don't have a burst heal like templar or mag dk but Rapid has a much higher tooltip than those heals anyway, and it allows you to swap bars and go back offensive.
I guess I'm just surprised people think magwarden is so bad. I've seen some good ones just wrecking people. Their burst seems just as scary as stamwarden.