TheEndBringer wrote: »

There's a big difference between giving weapon and spell damage on sets and races vs completely eradicating weapon and spell damage.

Mag damage functions off max mag. Weapon damage has very little to do with stamina. These things are hard coded and would require a complete rewrite of the combat engine. CP 2.0 isn't a fair comparison because it's really not that much different than 1.0.

The scaling is symmetrical. Mag skills scale off spell damage + Max Mag, Stam skills scale off weapon damage + Max Stam. The calculations are, in fact, the same. The difference is that, historically, it was easier to stack Max Mag than Max Stam. While it was easier to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage. This isn't, really, true anymore.

There used to be a few things (Light Attacks and Damage Shields in particular) which had different scaling systems, but that stuff was standardized ages ago.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There's a big difference between giving weapon and spell damage on sets and races vs completely eradicating weapon and spell damage.

Mag damage functions off max mag. Weapon damage has very little to do with stamina. These things are hard coded and would require a complete rewrite of the combat engine. CP 2.0 isn't a fair comparison because it's really not that much different than 1.0.

The scaling is symmetrical. Mag skills scale off spell damage + Max Mag, Stam skills scale off weapon damage + Max Stam. The calculations are, in fact, the same. The difference is that, historically, it was easier to stack Max Mag than Max Stam. While it was easier to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage. This isn't, really, true anymore.

There used to be a few things (Light Attacks and Damage Shields in particular) which had different scaling systems, but that stuff was standardized ages ago.

I'm sorry but that's not really true. The damage per 1 mag point is higher than the damage per 1 stam point. This is easy to test and I know plenty of people who tried. Many mag and stam sets have comparable versions of one another.

A Stam toon with 45k Stam hits like a wet noodle compared to a 45k mag. 2 dark elf NBs. One all mag one all Stam. Mag wearing Crafty and Mother's. Stam in Draugr Hulk and leviathan. No armor passives. No weapon passives.

Give it a go.

With which skills? Any other build differences? Are Weapon and Spell Damage the same? Are both reaching the pen cap?

If all those things are the same it should be equal damage with a skill like Soul Trap, or comparing Concealed Weapon vs Surprise Attack.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There's a big difference between giving weapon and spell damage on sets and races vs completely eradicating weapon and spell damage.

Mag damage functions off max mag. Weapon damage has very little to do with stamina. These things are hard coded and would require a complete rewrite of the combat engine. CP 2.0 isn't a fair comparison because it's really not that much different than 1.0.

The scaling is symmetrical. Mag skills scale off spell damage + Max Mag, Stam skills scale off weapon damage + Max Stam. The calculations are, in fact, the same. The difference is that, historically, it was easier to stack Max Mag than Max Stam. While it was easier to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage. This isn't, really, true anymore.

There used to be a few things (Light Attacks and Damage Shields in particular) which had different scaling systems, but that stuff was standardized ages ago.

I'm sorry but that's not really true. The damage per 1 mag point is higher than the damage per 1 stam point. This is easy to test and I know plenty of people who tried. Many mag and stam sets have comparable versions of one another.

A Stam toon with 45k Stam hits like a wet noodle compared to a 45k mag. 2 dark elf NBs. One all mag one all Stam. Mag wearing Crafty and Mother's. Stam in Draugr Hulk and leviathan. No armor passives. No weapon passives.

Give it a go.

With which skills? Any other build differences? Are Weapon and Spell Damage the same? Are both reaching the pen cap?

If all those things are the same it should be equal damage with a skill like Soul Trap, or comparing Concealed Weapon vs Surprise Attack.

Without passives weapon and spell end up similar. Same for pen. You'll see drastically less damage for max stam using skills with comparative damage as mag. You can even just use LA.

Not seeing that, TBH. Looks like they're doing the exact same damage on either morph.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There's a big difference between giving weapon and spell damage on sets and races vs completely eradicating weapon and spell damage.

Mag damage functions off max mag. Weapon damage has very little to do with stamina. These things are hard coded and would require a complete rewrite of the combat engine. CP 2.0 isn't a fair comparison because it's really not that much different than 1.0.

The scaling is symmetrical. Mag skills scale off spell damage + Max Mag, Stam skills scale off weapon damage + Max Stam. The calculations are, in fact, the same. The difference is that, historically, it was easier to stack Max Mag than Max Stam. While it was easier to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage. This isn't, really, true anymore.

There used to be a few things (Light Attacks and Damage Shields in particular) which had different scaling systems, but that stuff was standardized ages ago.

I'm sorry but that's not really true. The damage per 1 mag point is higher than the damage per 1 stam point. This is easy to test and I know plenty of people who tried. Many mag and stam sets have comparable versions of one another.

A Stam toon with 45k Stam hits like a wet noodle compared to a 45k mag. 2 dark elf NBs. One all mag one all Stam. Mag wearing Crafty and Mother's. Stam in Draugr Hulk and leviathan. No armor passives. No weapon passives.

Give it a go.

With which skills? Any other build differences? Are Weapon and Spell Damage the same? Are both reaching the pen cap?

If all those things are the same it should be equal damage with a skill like Soul Trap, or comparing Concealed Weapon vs Surprise Attack.

Without passives weapon and spell end up similar. Same for pen. You'll see drastically less damage for max stam using skills with comparative damage as mag. You can even just use LA.

Not seeing that, TBH. Looks like they're doing the exact same damage on either morph.

Hmm. When my friends and I tested this a month ago on live we did it with no gear, just a crafted staff and weapon. Purple. No glyph. No poison.

We hit much harder on a dummy with max mag. 🤷

Yeah, that's an overall balance issue. Mag builds hit harder. Mag and Stam run off the same math, but the mag builds you can construct will generally hit harder due to a number of considerations. Even just running full light vs full medium will give you different results.

The above images were pulled from logging into a fresh template (so, full purple gear, heavy armor with a 2h), clearing their skill points, and then checking numbers.

At that point, everything is equal between stats and damage.

But, you put on light armor and you get pen. You put on medium and that pen is gone. You test with the same armor on both and you'll penalize the characters who are in the, "wrong" weight.

I applaud you for the testing, but this is a system that is aggravatingly hard to verify on the live servers.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There's a big difference between giving weapon and spell damage on sets and races vs completely eradicating weapon and spell damage.

Mag damage functions off max mag. Weapon damage has very little to do with stamina. These things are hard coded and would require a complete rewrite of the combat engine. CP 2.0 isn't a fair comparison because it's really not that much different than 1.0.

The scaling is symmetrical. Mag skills scale off spell damage + Max Mag, Stam skills scale off weapon damage + Max Stam. The calculations are, in fact, the same. The difference is that, historically, it was easier to stack Max Mag than Max Stam. While it was easier to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage. This isn't, really, true anymore.

There used to be a few things (Light Attacks and Damage Shields in particular) which had different scaling systems, but that stuff was standardized ages ago.

I'm sorry but that's not really true. The damage per 1 mag point is higher than the damage per 1 stam point. This is easy to test and I know plenty of people who tried. Many mag and stam sets have comparable versions of one another.

A Stam toon with 45k Stam hits like a wet noodle compared to a 45k mag. 2 dark elf NBs. One all mag one all Stam. Mag wearing Crafty and Mother's. Stam in Draugr Hulk and leviathan. No armor passives. No weapon passives.

Give it a go.

With which skills? Any other build differences? Are Weapon and Spell Damage the same? Are both reaching the pen cap?

If all those things are the same it should be equal damage with a skill like Soul Trap, or comparing Concealed Weapon vs Surprise Attack.

Without passives weapon and spell end up similar. Same for pen. You'll see drastically less damage for max stam using skills with comparative damage as mag. You can even just use LA.

Not seeing that, TBH. Looks like they're doing the exact same damage on either morph.

Hmm. When my friends and I tested this a month ago on live we did it with no gear, just a crafted staff and weapon. Purple. No glyph. No poison.

We hit much harder on a dummy with max mag. 🤷

Yeah, that's an overall balance issue. Mag builds hit harder. Mag and Stam run off the same math, but the mag builds you can construct will generally hit harder due to a number of considerations. Even just running full light vs full medium will give you different results.

The above images were pulled from logging into a fresh template (so, full purple gear, heavy armor with a 2h), clearing their skill points, and then checking numbers.

At that point, everything is equal between stats and damage.

But, you put on light armor and you get pen. You put on medium and that pen is gone. You test with the same armor on both and you'll penalize the characters who are in the, "wrong" weight.

I applaud you for the testing, but this is a system that is aggravatingly hard to verify on the live servers.

Mag in light should have the best damage and healing at the cost of sturdiness. Heavy should have the best armor and health with a reduction in damage, and medium should fall somewhere in between, imo.

I think Light and Medium need to have similar damage output for balance reasons. Medium should definitely have more mitigation than Light because they are often melee and in more danger. Of course there are exceptions, like melee Light Armor MagDK, but this can be handled by giving them defense through class passives.