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Necromancers are overperforming

BohnT2
BohnT2
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Two years have passed since necromancers have been added to the game and have done the best they could to make combat feel just as bad as their class design.

At first this was more or less a stamina necromancer issue only, the magicka counterpart lacked offensive presence but still managed to ruin your day by being more tanky than any other spec in the game.
Stamnecro of course had major defile spreading homing missiles, access to major protection on a regular skill and inherited the rest of necromancers overtuned defensive options.

For almost one and a half years fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die, the spec was blatantly op.
Fighting a magnecro ment that the only way the fight could end was a sudden heart attack of one of the combatants.

Then during the "Dark Heart of Skyrim" the devs unleashed a harrowstorm of proc into the game that made magnecro from one day to another an incredibly threatening spec that abused full damage builds while still being more tanky than any other class could have ever dreamed about.

With changes to major and minor buffs the extraordinary power of necromancers took a hit, major protection wasn't as overperforming as it has been for ages and major defile didn't allow you to be a death bringing machine without any offensive investment.

But then the CP 2.0 system was introduced and along with it every character got a free 1000 weapon and spell damage bonus.
Those changes resulted in 2 things first of all, everyone lost loads of mitigation while damage stayed relatively high.
And here comes the catch, Necromancers have such high mitigation from the get go that they're now once again defensive overlords compared to any other spec in the game, the free 1000 damage have furthered those issues as the three most overpowered skills necromancers have access to (blastbones, Mender and mortal coil) all have an amazing scaling with weapon and spell damage, additionally % damage buffs like the previously laughably weak buff from stalking blastbones don't get watered down by multiplicative damage buffs from the old CP system.

To sum this paragraph up in one sentence: Everyone lost mitigation while necromancers kept enough mitigation to survive and gained enough damage to be an extreme threat.


Deciding which class to play has yet again be reduced to the question: Do you want to be as powerful as you want and if you do, do you want to be a magicka or stamina necromancer?


The worst part about this whole situation is that necromancer is the worst designed class in the entire game, there is no gameplay design behind it as the class is Frankenstein's monster build with a few overperforming skills and buffs that are sewn together with horribly bad skills that have no place in the game.

The overperforming skills I'm talking about are of course blastbones, Spirit mender and healing tether, necrotic potency, along with bone goliath as an overperforming ultimate and passives like disdain harm, rapid rot, buff wise necromancers are the only class with access to major vulnerability.
Other passives like undead Confederate or corpse consumption are also stronger than the equivalents of other classes.

Other skills like scythe, skulls, grave grasp, totem are horribly weak compared to other skills.
This leads to necromancers using the same skills with no variance at all as even picking a single of those skills means a huge loss im efficiency.


The only way to make necromancer actually balanced and fun to play is a complete rework of the class that frees it from the bane of being forced to have 1 defensive, 1 offensive and 1 healing skill line, while also establishing a whole new gameplay design for the class that completely differs from the rest of all other classes.

Until that happens please delete Necromancers from the game.
  • Sun7dance
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    Absolutely correct, nothing to add!
    PS5|EU
  • Lephrel
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    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Then during the "Dark Heart of Skyrim" the devs unleashed a harrowstorm of proc into the game.
    Nice. :smirk:
  • NeillMcAttack
    NeillMcAttack
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    The fact that blastbones currently procs both ranged and melee supremacy means that the class also get the best use out of one of the stronger sets added to the game recently.
    Blastbones is a ranged ability that deals direct damage in an AOE, yet it can’t be avoided because reasons. It is an abomination of a skill, that is nigh on impossible to defend against. Make it a projectile that can be dodged, or an AOE ground target ability, and maybe then it will be balanced.
    PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvP
    Tiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP Main
    Legion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE Main
    Sephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DC
    The Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc AD
    Lone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD
    @ McAttack in game
    Played since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.
  • Artemis_X_
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    Thats not the impression esologs gives.
  • Waseem
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    New classes always marginally outperform
    so was the warden back the day

    THIS is a vital sell point, when new class arrives, you'll wish will be granted
  • Alucardo
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    The fact that blastbones currently procs both ranged and melee supremacy means that the class also get the best use out of one of the stronger sets added to the game recently.
    Blastbones is a ranged ability that deals direct damage in an AOE, yet it can’t be avoided because reasons. It is an abomination of a skill, that is nigh on impossible to defend against. Make it a projectile that can be dodged, or an AOE ground target ability, and maybe then it will be balanced.

    I'd like it if it ran in the direction the caster was facing, instead of being a heat seeking missile of death. For something that provides that amount of damage and aoe blast, it should require some skill to use it. Just my two cents.
  • BohnT2
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    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic
  • Artemis_X_
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    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.
  • BohnT2
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    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.
  • ghost_bg_ESO
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    this tread had to be posted at MYM - other pve-rs lurking in pvp wouldn't bother with my magcro and i wasn't going to be melted in every encounter :/ .

    :D:D:D


    Edit: typo
    Edited by ghost_bg_ESO on July 5, 2021 1:32PM
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    [snip]

    Generally you should only voice your opinion if you bothered to read the actual thread. Titles aren't always enough to go on.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 5, 2021 3:41PM
  • Parasaurolophus
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    Waseem wrote: »
    New classes always marginally outperform
    so was the warden back the day

    THIS is a vital sell point, when new class arrives, you'll wish will be granted

    Not. People say that it is impossible to monetize pvp in this game.
    PC/EU
  • BlueRaven
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    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.

    There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.
  • BohnT2
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.

    There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.

    Every explanation in the initial post is focused on PvP, it's self explanatory that in a game with no separation between PvP and PvE changes will affect both sides although not in the same way.
  • BlueRaven
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    BohnT2 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.

    There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.

    Every explanation in the initial post is focused on PvP, it's self explanatory that in a game with no separation between PvP and PvE changes will affect both sides although not in the same way.

    Yes, so if someone posts a concern related to how your changes effect pve, they cannot be dismissed by stating this thread is only about how necromancers perform in pvp.
  • BohnT2
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.

    There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.

    Every explanation in the initial post is focused on PvP, it's self explanatory that in a game with no separation between PvP and PvE changes will affect both sides although not in the same way.

    Yes, so if someone posts a concern related to how your changes effect pve, they cannot be dismissed by stating this thread is only about how necromancers perform in pvp.

    No one has posted any concerns about those changes tho.
    There was only an attempt to dismiss this post by referring to useage stats in PvE from Esologs.

  • BlueRaven
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    BohnT2 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.

    There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.

    Every explanation in the initial post is focused on PvP, it's self explanatory that in a game with no separation between PvP and PvE changes will affect both sides although not in the same way.

    Yes, so if someone posts a concern related to how your changes effect pve, they cannot be dismissed by stating this thread is only about how necromancers perform in pvp.

    No one has posted any concerns about those changes tho.
    There was only an attempt to dismiss this post by referring to useage stats in PvE from Esologs.

    Which is a way of measuring the effectiveness of attacks in PvE.

    If an attack is OVER performing in PvP but UNDER (or at least evenly) performing in PvE, the solution is not to nerf PvE. This is your topic. Think of a way to modify Necro's attacks that does not further hurt PvE effectiveness.
  • Elo106
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    Werent Necros best in slot in PvE as well for a while? Or still are?
    I agree that they overperform in PvP, as well. In PvE you want as many as you can get to keep the major vulnerability going.

    Warden & Necro Pay 2 Win :D
  • BohnT2
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Artemis_X_ wrote: »
    Thats not the impression esologs gives.

    It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

    It should yep.

    I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.

    There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.

    Every explanation in the initial post is focused on PvP, it's self explanatory that in a game with no separation between PvP and PvE changes will affect both sides although not in the same way.

    Yes, so if someone posts a concern related to how your changes effect pve, they cannot be dismissed by stating this thread is only about how necromancers perform in pvp.

    No one has posted any concerns about those changes tho.
    There was only an attempt to dismiss this post by referring to useage stats in PvE from Esologs.

    Which is a way of measuring the effectiveness of attacks in PvE.

    If an attack is OVER performing in PvP but UNDER (or at least evenly) performing in PvE, the solution is not to nerf PvE. This is your topic. Think of a way to modify Necro's attacks that does not further hurt PvE effectiveness.

    Magnecromancer is currently the most used spec in PvE (also due to major vulnerability) and whatever skill you're talking about it can't be one of the one I named.

    Blastbones is always the top damage skill by far just check some Eso log parses.
    One example being the Kyne's Aegis Parses of the Top team (Aurbis Aspect)

    If you're telling me a spec, that fills 1/3rd of the slots of a whole trial group and 2/3rd of the damage dealers, is bad at PvE the issue is on your side.

    Also a full rework of the class can easily support the class staying viable in PvE.


    Edited by BohnT2 on July 8, 2021 8:35AM
  • jircris11
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    This right here is why "pvpers" are disliked. Has anyone thought instead of nerf maybe just maybe bring the other classes up to par? Fir the longest time it was stamblade op with snipe. Then templar with jabs ' dk with ungodly tank and now its necro. Granted BB can be a bit OP in situations most of the time its a player issue.(lack of knowledge, tactics or even build) i have fought many necros with little issue unless im unprepared.
    Edited by jircris11 on July 5, 2021 6:57PM
    IGN: Ki'rah
    Khajiit/Vampire
    DC/AD faction/NA server.
    RPer
  • Urzigurumash
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    BohnT2 doin the dirty work for the rest of us

    Can you please add Hexproof to that list and make a post about Netch's purge for your DK friends
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • BohnT2
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    jircris11 wrote: »
    This right here is why "pvpers" are disliked. Has anyone thought instead of nerf maybe just maybe bring the other classes up to par? Fir the longest time it was stamblade op with snipe. Then templar with jabs ' dk with ungodly tank and now its necro. Granted BB can be a bit OP in situations most of the time its a player issue.(lack of knowledge, tactics or even build) i have fought many necros with little issue unless im unprepared.

    And this right here is why people should have their actual playtime in PvP linked to their forum account.
    Starting off by saying "let's buff everything to be on par".
    First of all this would mean that no one would die in PvP again because one issue with necromancers is their survivability while having enough damage to kill the rest of the classes who don't have this survivability.

    The next mistake is your demand to buff 10 other specs with completely different toolkits while keeping the balance in PvE in check, that's a balance nightmare when we ignore the additional time required to do this.

    Just by the statements you've made its clear that you either haven't played pvp at all or were zergsurfing.

    Snipe on NB has never been op it was just annoying or generated issues due to bugs or desyncs.
    DK being tanky happened the last time 4 years ago, Jabs being op didn't happen in PvP or were never the biggest issue around.

    Please don't comment on stuff about a game mode that you don't play or understand.
  • Elo106
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    jircris11 wrote: »
    This right here is why "pvpers" are disliked. Has anyone thought instead of nerf maybe just maybe bring the other classes up to par? Fir the longest time it was stamblade op with snipe. Then templar with jabs ' dk with ungodly tank and now its necro. Granted BB can be a bit OP in situations most of the time its a player issue.(lack of knowledge, tactics or even build) i have fought many necros with little issue unless im unprepared.

    If we keep buffing classes sooner or later the mobs/bosses will be buffed as well and we are back to normal. Pve Mobs dont complain about imbalances, thats why most complains are from pvpers.

    That being said op did not ask for a nerf, but a rework
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    I certainly respect your opinion but I can't get on board with more nerfs to magRomancers after the disastrous recent handling of the Death Knell passive.

    You mention magRomancers being over-represented in PvE as a deflection of criticism about the downstream effects of PvP changes on PvE but, as has been pointed out by many other wise players, that is primarily due to their monopoly on Major Vulnerability rather than their being so much more powerful than other classes. That's a problem specifically with the sourcing of Major Vulnerability (and deserves a solution that specifically solves that problem) not with the class as a whole.

    For PvP, I am also chaffing at the knee-jerk reaction to nerf magRomancer along with stamCros since the class has been down there in the meme tier for most of its existence. Yes, it has tankiness but also - no mobility, no (usable) class stun or Immobilize, no execute, a burst combo with Avid Graveyard that is significantly more difficult to set up (and that can only be used every 20 seconds...) than most competing class combos, and a delayed burst skill in Blastbones that frequently bugs out and eats up not only the GCD that it took to cast the ability but that also prevents you from casting any additional instances of it.

    You point out that the class is held together by a few good skills and that it would be nice to have some of that power better distributed throughout the class kit. That, on its face, is reasonable. However, we all know how ZOS rolls when it comes to balancing. They will hear, "Oh, you say that Necromancers should be nerfed into the ground - we're on it!" and then magRomancer will go back to being a meme while stamCro remains playable because it can crutch on Medium Armor and 2H (speaking of over-performing skill trees...) like every other Stamina class.
  • Girl_Number8
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    Is it that time again Bohn 😆
  • GrigorijMalahevich
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    PvP Magicka Necromancer has the worst offensive toolkit of any class by far!
    Harmony nerf
    Major vuln nerf
    Mag blastbones essentially has no secondary effect since the damage modifier doesn't work now that blastbones doesn't run to the target.
    Mag skulls are very slow spammable and have inferior secondary effects compared to other spammable options such as Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon, and even the stam skulls.
    The Skeletal Arcanist deals incredibly low damage after battlespirit and doesn't target who you're immediately trying to kill.
    Mystic siphon is completely useless in PvP.
    Hungry Scythe from the Bone Tyrant tree just doesn't do enough damage to warrant use.
    Despite having a DOT damage passive, mag necros don't have a single viable DOT for PvP in their class trees
    Mag necros have no class access to major sorcery OR major prophecy.
    PC/EU 800 CP.
    PvP MagSorc.
    Pedro Gonzales - Mag Sorc EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/CB6j6
    Valera Progib - Stam Sorc DC vMA Flawless Conqueror clear https://i.imgur.com/eYgpXG2.png
    Valera Pozhar - Mag DK EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/jrsuK
    Valera Podlechi - Mag Templar AD vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/N0BYq
  • Ragnaroek93
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    Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game, 10% mitigation while having even more hot healing than magcro and perma major defile on top of that which is just lol (even tho defile got nerfed this is just wtf devs).

    I don't get how stamcro is allowed to counter healing and dodge with a hard hitting semi spammable skill while lots of classes aren't even allowed to have any counters against dodge/healing/block at all. Also the class is so tanky that it's just a joke while still having a ton of peak burst which is enough to kill pretty much everything which isn't a tank (same goes for stamden but at least they nerfed Arctic a bit). There's literally not a single class or counter which is good against necro, the only "counter" is to zerg them down. Having specs which are that tanky in PvP is extremely unhealthy for the game since being (almost) immortal in any 1v1 scenario completely eliminates the purpose of PvP. Duels for example got completely annihilated by these two specs and sadly that not the only scenario in which Necro is overperforming (I honestly can't think of any scenario in which a Necro is doing bad...).

    Just give Necros and Wardens their GO rank and ban them from PvP thx.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • ImSoPro
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    Nah us magcros wallowed in the depths of despair at the bottom of totem pole for long enough. OUR TIME IS NOW! RISE MY FELLOW NECROMANCERS WREAK HAVOC ON OUR WHINING ENEMIES MUAHAHAHAHA
  • BohnT2
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    Is it that time again Bohn 😆

    It has been this time since Elsweyr dropped.

    Here's a short comparison of some key stats and skills from a magicka necromancer and a magdk, using the same build (which wouldn't be the case as magnecro can run 2-3 offensive sets with only one defensive one while magdk is more or less forced to run 2-3 defensive sets)
    Anyway here's the Magnecro screenshots
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    Followed by the magdk:
    NOTABLE-01983.jpg
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    I like to point out the following discrepancies in favor of magnecro:
    Penetration: 6.4k vs 4.9k
    Regen: 1.4kmag&1191stam vs 1.2kmag&951stam
    Health: 33.9k vs 32.4k

    Magdk only has an advantage in Crit chance due to major prophecy and 34.8k vs 31.5k spell resistance.

    When we're looking at mitigation Necromancer is still on top even when it comes to magic damage taken due to its stats, when looking at Dot damage mitigation it's not even a competition anymore.

    Especially fun to look at are some tooltips:
    Degeneration: 19299 vs 16942
    Spirit guardian: 6723 every 2 seconds for 2117
    Cauterize: 8071 every 5 seconds for 1945
    Spirit Guardian: 13448 every 2 seconds for 972
    Moltenwhip with 2 stacks: 16896 for 2088
    Blastbones with no damage buff: 16681 for 1258
    Mortal coil: 27184 at no cost and giving 200 stamregen
    Coagulating Blood: 14191 for 3662
    Resistant Flesh: 17649 for 4234


    As you can see there is a reason how i come to the conclusion Necromancer is overperforming.
    All this hasn't even taken into account how magnecro is extremely gcd saving, none of the skills require you to waste gcds and the amount of hots allows you to be offensive much longer than others.
    This also hasn't taken a look at the amount of ultimate necro can generate and how it can stall or flip fights with Ravenous goliath.

    The class is overperforming and it's in desperate need of a rework in order to make it more balanced and more fun to play because right now it's neither of those two things.
    Edited by BohnT2 on July 5, 2021 10:02PM
  • Zeromaz
    Zeromaz
    ✭✭✭✭
    Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game, 10% mitigation while having even more hot healing than magcro and perma major defile on top of that which is just lol (even tho defile got nerfed this is just wtf devs).

    I don't get how stamcro is allowed to counter healing and dodge with a hard hitting semi spammable skill while lots of classes aren't even allowed to have any counters against dodge/healing/block at all. Also the class is so tanky that it's just a joke while still having a ton of peak burst which is enough to kill pretty much everything which isn't a tank (same goes for stamden but at least they nerfed Arctic a bit). There's literally not a single class or counter which is good against necro, the only "counter" is to zerg them down. Having specs which are that tanky in PvP is extremely unhealthy for the game since being (almost) immortal in any 1v1 scenario completely eliminates the purpose of PvP. Duels for example got completely annihilated by these two specs and sadly that not the only scenario in which Necro is overperforming (I honestly can't think of any scenario in which a Necro is doing bad...).

    Just give Necros and Wardens their GO rank and ban them from PvP thx.

    So basically 10% dmg mitigation and major defile. Considering everyone has access to the other skills you mentioned.

    You’re trying to make it sound worse by using best spammable and best execute to stamcro specifically and thats just not true
    Edited by Zeromaz on July 6, 2021 12:14AM
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