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Remove the damage taken penalty from light armor
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YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Andre_Noir wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »
@uzigurumashUrzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »What about changing this to Increased Martial Damage to Damage Shields only?
That's an improvement but why have a penalty in the first place?
Why does Medium Armor get to skate on penalties while still being able to spam Roll-Dodge?
The broad consensus seemed to be that Medium armor was sorely in need of buffs compared to Light or Heavy, but I do think we had a Roll Dodge + Vigor meta from Dragonhold to Greymoor, the era of the rock-dancer, and we're probably always at some risk of returning to that tiresome meta.
In my experience, the increased Magicka Damage Taken on Heavy is a huge boon for Mag in BGs right now (specifically because ranged-proc NBs drive the necessity of some Heavy for most players), if not so much in Cyrodiil, but maybe this advantage will become more relevant in Cyrodiil when procs are back.
Anyhow per my recollection, a full hybridization of all 3 armor types would be most thematically in line with other TES games, right?
Overall I'd advocate for buffing Destro spammables (and Eviscerate), like many have said many times, and seeing how these current armor passives pan out. Whatever the armor imbalances, D Swing and Lethal Arrow are still the two best single-target spammables in the game, even if Impulse is close to Whirlwind.
impulse in nowhere near whirlwind . both are aoe but whirlwind has bous damage under 50% health while impulse has minor mangle which doesnt stack.
impulse isnt worth skill slot.
force shock cannot be compared to snipe or d swing because of split damage
wall of elements is pve only
destructive touch is trash
Fire Impulse has Execute Scaling, and it appears to be a 300% modifier to enemies under 50%, opposed to Whirlwind's 100%. The most experienced players I know run Impulse on Mag. It seems most Mag were running Crushing Shock in No Procrodiil this last patch, but still, its damage seems low to me, compared to Lethal Arrow. Point was, buff Destro, and you buff Mag's ranged offense. If Mag's ranged offense were stronger, their poorer mitigation wouldn't put them so far behind Stam. And when I say them, I mean MagPlar, MagDK, and MagNB, because the other 3 were quite strong in No Procodiil and BGs this last patch.
Also, unrelated to that, but Light's penalties move with Heavy's. As one goes, so must the other. In BGs these penalties are palpable.
And do you know that damage bonus is only for status effects? Which is how much. 200 damage in pvp?
So its whooping 600 damage while under 50% health.
Thats certainly comparable to whirlwind which increases its damage by 50%. Multiplied by crit.
There is reason while stam is stronger than mag in pvp. Everyone knows that. Its because of stam weapon skill lines are superior to mag weapon skill line (right, one. Resto doesn't count as weapon) and most class skill lines.
And thats that. If we compare only skills it favors stam. Then we go to sets which are divided to damage (mostly stam) and support (mostly mag)
Stam wins again. Proc sets? Stam win
Now even armor type mag vs stam is unbalanced. Less armour, spell resistance is generaly larger than phys. because of some racials and passives. 7% more damage taken from stam.
The Impulse bonus applies to all damage, but it requires the target to be afflicted with Burning. On the other hand, it's a much larger bonus than Whirlwind. Reverse Slice requires a target, and PI is single target for both morphs, so they're not exactly comparable.
Otherwise we seem to be in agreement, Mag's primary issue seems to be that Destro is weaker than 2h/DW/Bow, so I think working on that should be the first priority, that's all my point was.
Ah yes, a victim of the Fake Tooltips. The exe scaling has been tested and confirmed it only boosted the extra damage from the very small burning conditional. You should never use Impulse in cyro unless it's the shock variant.
A magDK can use Flame Pulsar just fine in Cyrodiil.
It is true that the execute damage comes only from the Pulsar Afterburn but what many people do not know is that the Afterburn component itself has a chance to proc Burning a second time on the same cast (with the first being from the cast of Pulsar itself). So you can get two Burning 0-second ticks on top of the Afterburn bonus damage and base Pulsar damage as well as harvest all of the resulting Combustion procs.
To wit, a Charged Pulsar cast has an 84% chance to inflict Burning on each target in the radius and then a 42% chance to inflict Burning again on the follow-up Afterburn during the same GCD. If you have 3-4 targets within the Pulsar radius, you can effectively cast the skill for free due to all of the Combustion procs.
And, with the DK Flame AoE passive, the damage of the Pulsar itself, when added to the Burning and Afterburn damage, will be quite competitive with Shock Pulsar (while being much easier on sustain).
TL;DR: the skill is trashYandereGirlfriend wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »
@uzigurumashUrzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »What about changing this to Increased Martial Damage to Damage Shields only?
That's an improvement but why have a penalty in the first place?
Why does Medium Armor get to skate on penalties while still being able to spam Roll-Dodge?
The broad consensus seemed to be that Medium armor was sorely in need of buffs compared to Light or Heavy, but I do think we had a Roll Dodge + Vigor meta from Dragonhold to Greymoor, the era of the rock-dancer, and we're probably always at some risk of returning to that tiresome meta.
In my experience, the increased Magicka Damage Taken on Heavy is a huge boon for Mag in BGs right now (specifically because ranged-proc NBs drive the necessity of some Heavy for most players), if not so much in Cyrodiil, but maybe this advantage will become more relevant in Cyrodiil when procs are back.
Anyhow per my recollection, a full hybridization of all 3 armor types would be most thematically in line with other TES games, right?
Overall I'd advocate for buffing Destro spammables (and Eviscerate), like many have said many times, and seeing how these current armor passives pan out. Whatever the armor imbalances, D Swing and Lethal Arrow are still the two best single-target spammables in the game, even if Impulse is close to Whirlwind.
impulse in nowhere near whirlwind . both are aoe but whirlwind has bous damage under 50% health while impulse has minor mangle which doesnt stack.
impulse isnt worth skill slot.
force shock cannot be compared to snipe or d swing because of split damage
wall of elements is pve only
destructive touch is trash
Fire Impulse has Execute Scaling, and it appears to be a 300% modifier to enemies under 50%, opposed to Whirlwind's 100%. The most experienced players I know run Impulse on Mag. It seems most Mag were running Crushing Shock in No Procrodiil this last patch, but still, its damage seems low to me, compared to Lethal Arrow. Point was, buff Destro, and you buff Mag's ranged offense. If Mag's ranged offense were stronger, their poorer mitigation wouldn't put them so far behind Stam. And when I say them, I mean MagPlar, MagDK, and MagNB, because the other 3 were quite strong in No Procodiil and BGs this last patch.
Also, unrelated to that, but Light's penalties move with Heavy's. As one goes, so must the other. In BGs these penalties are palpable.
And do you know that damage bonus is only for status effects? Which is how much. 200 damage in pvp?
So its whooping 600 damage while under 50% health.
Thats certainly comparable to whirlwind which increases its damage by 50%. Multiplied by crit.
There is reason while stam is stronger than mag in pvp. Everyone knows that. Its because of stam weapon skill lines are superior to mag weapon skill line (right, one. Resto doesn't count as weapon) and most class skill lines.
And thats that. If we compare only skills it favors stam. Then we go to sets which are divided to damage (mostly stam) and support (mostly mag)
Stam wins again. Proc sets? Stam win
Now even armor type mag vs stam is unbalanced. Less armour, spell resistance is generaly larger than phys. because of some racials and passives. 7% more damage taken from stam.
The Impulse bonus applies to all damage, but it requires the target to be afflicted with Burning. On the other hand, it's a much larger bonus than Whirlwind. Reverse Slice requires a target, and PI is single target for both morphs, so they're not exactly comparable.
Otherwise we seem to be in agreement, Mag's primary issue seems to be that Destro is weaker than 2h/DW/Bow, so I think working on that should be the first priority, that's all my point was.
Ah yes, a victim of the Fake Tooltips. The exe scaling has been tested and confirmed it only boosted the extra damage from the very small burning conditional. You should never use Impulse in cyro unless it's the shock variant.
A magDK can use Flame Pulsar just fine in Cyrodiil.
It is true that the execute damage comes only from the Pulsar Afterburn but what many people do not know is that the Afterburn component itself has a chance to proc Burning a second time on the same cast (with the first being from the cast of Pulsar itself). So you can get two Burning 0-second ticks on top of the Afterburn bonus damage and base Pulsar damage as well as harvest all of the resulting Combustion procs.
To wit, a Charged Pulsar cast has an 84% chance to inflict Burning on each target in the radius and then a 42% chance to inflict Burning again on the follow-up Afterburn during the same GCD. If you have 3-4 targets within the Pulsar radius, you can effectively cast the skill for free due to all of the Combustion procs.
And, with the DK Flame AoE passive, the damage of the Pulsar itself, when added to the Burning and Afterburn damage, will be quite competitive with Shock Pulsar (while being much easier on sustain).
If we're still speaking in PvP terms if you're gonna use Flame Pulsar in Cyro as a magDK, you might as well just die. And in PvE terms, it's just better to spam unstable wall.
It's a ball group skill and it's good at what it does.
Obviously, using it as a spammable in solo or small-scale play isn't a good idea and I agree with the general statement that "MagDK still doesn't have an execute." At that point you're using an ability that's 50+% more expensive than alternative spammables on a class that already has horrible sustain which isn't worth it at all versus, say, Power Lash.
But if you find yourself in a ball group and are routinely catching 4-8 players in the radius per cast, then you're doing good damage AND casting the ability for free or even gaining Magicka for casting it, which is amazing.
Realistically, you'll get like 2 casts off and then die bc magDK has no survivability or movement without doing barely any damage but hey you got the minor mangle off I guess.
How many times do I need to say that it's not a solo player skill it's a ball group skill.
When you have full raid buffs up on you a magDK is tankier than a solo stamCro in Heavy Armor, the only thing that you're dying to is another ball group or a 40-player faction-stack.
Flame Pulsar is extremely good within this context.
and what if you dont like/want to play ball group, you want to play more solo or smallscale or jest near groups but you also dont want to play specially stamina character on this, you would want o play it on mag character?
This question is easy, use Power Lash.
It's a good spammable and an extremely strong heal in the same skill. If you're mindful of when you're setting targets Off-Balance and Immobilizing them then you can basically have the heal whenever you want or need it. It's even easier to use when fighting multiple targets since managing Off-Balance and CC cooldowns become less of an issue.0 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭When stam players barged into the health pool of LA users, there is no midigation left but increased martial damage taken. LA user have absolutly 0 armor at that point. Then stamina user cut LA like butter.
Maybe devs remove spell critical from LA and give it enough max magicka bonus to fully compansate damage loss on PvE. I think max mag is more important than spell critical for PvP and critical is golden for PvE. This change means PvE DPS numbers are not affected and PvP LA users get a big chunk of max mag so they can have better shields. Shields are health capped as well so LA users will have higher HP due to relocation on build.
Summary: enough max mag to compansate for damage loss from crit loss, stronger shields, more max hp, more resources means LA users can reallocate these extra value to other parts of build like using devensive sets as you get more value from LA passives. MagDDs wont increase their max health so PvE damage shields wont be effected as well!
Nerf magsorcs tho. This buff was for non-sorc shield users. Sorc is already solid with shield and there is no need to make magsorcs king of PvP just for balancing other mag classes.
What I proposed can be done hybridly as well. Crit bonus wont be removed but halved, then devs will compansate magDD parse loss with enough max mag.Edited by Luckylancer on June 17, 2021 7:00PM0 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.
Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.
But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely
@FantasticFreddie
You say that but every other class and spec can get sustain dmg and survivability but magdks can’t. Magdks are the only ones who have to sacrifice something they have the lowest kill potential worst sustain and have almost zero defense built into there kitDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc1 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭But to be competitive in PvP you don't want a spread of attributes, you want a handful in HP and the rest in magicka. Your armour pieces with a few max mag glyphs and infused gives lashings of MP and definitely enough to run shields. If you think otherwise, what class are you playing as?
Also, light armour literally does make you more nimble. The light armour passives reduce your sprint costs and the effectiveness of snares.
Anyway, for your numbered points:
1) light armour passive
2)light armour passive + Lover mundus
3) light armour passive + shadow or Thief mundus
So light armour is literally catering to every one of your build demands.
I'll say again because you conveniently skipped the crucial bit: light and heavy have been recalibrated around medium as the control position. The alternative to light and heavy handicaps is to boost medium damage output. But doing that would make for OBSCENE min-max damage gank builds that would cause much more outrage than the existing penalties.
The new armour system is really good. If people complain and make them change it, they will end up with something far worse.
@rbfrgsp that would make more since of armor wasn’t based on spec but mag and stam could both use all types and the defense hat magick a is range is wrong because 2 of 6 are melee and 4 of 6 could be melee if they wanted but choose not because mag melee is a lot harderDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc3 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭Pre armor rework I could run 5 light 2 heavy as Magdk and be fine after change I would die way to fast had to got 3 med 3 light 1 heavy and now 3 heavy 3 light 1 medDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc0 -
rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭lucky_Sage wrote: »But to be competitive in PvP you don't want a spread of attributes, you want a handful in HP and the rest in magicka. Your armour pieces with a few max mag glyphs and infused gives lashings of MP and definitely enough to run shields. If you think otherwise, what class are you playing as?
Also, light armour literally does make you more nimble. The light armour passives reduce your sprint costs and the effectiveness of snares.
Anyway, for your numbered points:
1) light armour passive
2)light armour passive + Lover mundus
3) light armour passive + shadow or Thief mundus
So light armour is literally catering to every one of your build demands.
I'll say again because you conveniently skipped the crucial bit: light and heavy have been recalibrated around medium as the control position. The alternative to light and heavy handicaps is to boost medium damage output. But doing that would make for OBSCENE min-max damage gank builds that would cause much more outrage than the existing penalties.
The new armour system is really good. If people complain and make them change it, they will end up with something far worse.
@rbfrgsp that would make more since of armor wasn’t based on spec but mag and stam could both use all types and the defense hat magick a is range is wrong because 2 of 6 are melee and 4 of 6 could be melee if they wanted but choose not because mag melee is a lot harder
I didn't say magick was ranged.
Anyway, there are plenty of mag builds in light that stack into shields and are among the tankiest player in cyrodiil. If they are doing it, you and others can too.0 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.
Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.
But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely
Wearing medium gives you all that plus speed.
You're not wrong. I spent a couple of hours putting together a medium armor build this morning. 33k phys/spell resistance (over 40k with full pariah proc), 5.5k weapon damage (only buffed with rally), 2.5k hp regen, good sustain. 33k health.
What is this crap and why is it possible. Back in the day to get those kind of defensives you'd have to sacrifice a lot of sustain and weapon damage, now you just get it all. It's stupid.5 -
iksde✭✭✭✭lucky_Sage wrote: »But to be competitive in PvP you don't want a spread of attributes, you want a handful in HP and the rest in magicka. Your armour pieces with a few max mag glyphs and infused gives lashings of MP and definitely enough to run shields. If you think otherwise, what class are you playing as?
Also, light armour literally does make you more nimble. The light armour passives reduce your sprint costs and the effectiveness of snares.
Anyway, for your numbered points:
1) light armour passive
2)light armour passive + Lover mundus
3) light armour passive + shadow or Thief mundus
So light armour is literally catering to every one of your build demands.
I'll say again because you conveniently skipped the crucial bit: light and heavy have been recalibrated around medium as the control position. The alternative to light and heavy handicaps is to boost medium damage output. But doing that would make for OBSCENE min-max damage gank builds that would cause much more outrage than the existing penalties.
The new armour system is really good. If people complain and make them change it, they will end up with something far worse.
@rbfrgsp that would make more since of armor wasn’t based on spec but mag and stam could both use all types and the defense hat magick a is range is wrong because 2 of 6 are melee and 4 of 6 could be melee if they wanted but choose not because mag melee is a lot harder
I didn't say magick was ranged.
Anyway, there are plenty of mag builds in light that stack into shields and are among the tankiest player in cyrodiil. If they are doing it, you and others can too.
how stacked shields in light armor can be most tankiest? it is hard to stack shields for anyone outside sorc and even for him it wont put insane amount of daamage shield points
if you would have 30k health fro sure you wont or be barely able to "double" his heallt by shield to acheive total 60k...and ffor what it will be? all of it will be in pathetic resistant light amor - so still no resistances but just higher health poll
this sorc wont have a chance with stam necro with 50k health in heavy armor and still dealing tons of damage to this sorc - only option will be to streak away for this sorc and pray to ot be gap closer spammed by this necro to stay alive0 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭lucky_Sage wrote: »But to be competitive in PvP you don't want a spread of attributes, you want a handful in HP and the rest in magicka. Your armour pieces with a few max mag glyphs and infused gives lashings of MP and definitely enough to run shields. If you think otherwise, what class are you playing as?
Also, light armour literally does make you more nimble. The light armour passives reduce your sprint costs and the effectiveness of snares.
Anyway, for your numbered points:
1) light armour passive
2)light armour passive + Lover mundus
3) light armour passive + shadow or Thief mundus
So light armour is literally catering to every one of your build demands.
I'll say again because you conveniently skipped the crucial bit: light and heavy have been recalibrated around medium as the control position. The alternative to light and heavy handicaps is to boost medium damage output. But doing that would make for OBSCENE min-max damage gank builds that would cause much more outrage than the existing penalties.
The new armour system is really good. If people complain and make them change it, they will end up with something far worse.
@rbfrgsp that would make more since of armor wasn’t based on spec but mag and stam could both use all types and the defense hat magick a is range is wrong because 2 of 6 are melee and 4 of 6 could be melee if they wanted but choose not because mag melee is a lot harder
I didn't say magick was ranged.
Anyway, there are plenty of mag builds in light that stack into shields and are among the tankiest player in cyrodiil. If they are doing it, you and others can too.
@rbfrgsp yeah but Magdk being melee and not easy in and out of fights shield aren’t strong with them that’s why they don’t use them better blocking Only shield that use to work well was heading ward pre nerfDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc0 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭Light armor is already penalized in the defensive department by giving the least amounts of resistances, it was barely viable last patch and now it's basically a magsorc exclusivity because any other magicka class is bettter off running heavy armor + malacath just to survive.
Wearing light armor in PvP is basically asking to get deleted in one dizzy-dawnbreaker combo by any [snip].
[Minor edit for Bait.]
Fine with this if they change the penalty to "cannot use shields" instead.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean, everyone seems to be forgetting to mention that light armor gets better defense vs spells when they mention that light armor takes more damage from physical. Light armor takes less damage from magic, medium takes less damage from physical. Seems okay to me.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean, everyone seems to be forgetting to mention that light armor gets better defense vs spells when they mention that light armor takes more damage from physical. Light armor takes less damage from magic, medium takes less damage from physical. Seems okay to me.
I agree people are somewhat conveniently ignoring LA's extra spell damage mitigation. That said, LA also has lower base mitigation than the other armor types, spell resistance is way easier to get from your race or class than martial resistance (making it less useful), and stam DPS is meta in PvP (so you're much more likely to face martial damage than spell damage from your opponents).
Lastly, it isn't MA that has a weakness to spell damage, it's HA, which causes its own set of problems (particularly for PvE tanks).1 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They should move heavy armors weakness to magic to medium armor. I don't see a problem with that. Heavy armor doesn't boost your damage so it doesn't need a weakness other than being heavier.. aka increasing dodge and sprint costs2 -
iksde✭✭✭✭I mean, everyone seems to be forgetting to mention that light armor gets better defense vs spells when they mention that light armor takes more damage from physical. Light armor takes less damage from magic, medium takes less damage from physical. Seems okay to me.
and how much do you see mag and stam build on pvp?
it could have sense if atleast it was some balanced, like around this 50/50, 45/55 mag/stam build in pvp but its not, what I see thats 10 if not less mag builds against 90 stam builds in pvp right now
so additional mitigation against spells from mag build is mostly useless in current "balance" and mag build for most time is just punished for playing pvp as there are nonstop stamina builds to fight against which have increased damage done against magica only by magica player itself by wearing light armor to have possibility to deal any decent damage0 -
iksde✭✭✭✭They should move heavy armors weakness to magic to medium armor. I don't see a problem with that. Heavy armor doesn't boost your damage so it doesn't need a weakness other than being heavier.. aka increasing dodge and sprint costs
and they should remove additional aoe resists from medium armor and aoe seems to be almost the only damage type againsnt medium armor dodge spam to actually be able to kill him as most of single targed skill wont even hit him
medium armor got block cost reducton for something...0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The penalties should be (if they must remain at all...):
Light: Physical Damage
Medium: Magical Damage
Heavy: Reduced Damage Done
So that Light and Medium counter each other in PvP and tanks don't have any unnecessary collateral damage in PvE.7 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭The King of PvE DPS is Light Armor.
Do you want Light Armor to be the King in PvP?
Where is the game balance?
PvP is rock-paper-scissors.
Did you forget that Heavy Armor has an advantage over Medium Armor?0 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭
...for stamina onlymaster_vanargand wrote: »Heavy Armor has an advantage over Medium Armor?
3 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭I mean, everyone seems to be forgetting to mention that light armor gets better defense vs spells when they mention that light armor takes more damage from physical. Light armor takes less damage from magic, medium takes less damage from physical. Seems okay to me.
It is not okay.
Match ups:
LA vs LA, it is equal
MA vs MA, it is equal
MA vs LA, LA user is toast!
Maybe devs tried to make this: LA beats HA, HA beats MA, MA beats LA. But this dont work properly. LA users melt down while no other match up end witha melt down. Using LA conventionaly is suicide. Only a few setups can pull it off2 -
Milli_Rabbit✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »
Its actually more like +3% from martial attacks and -3% from magical attacks. Don't forget each also has bonuses providing reduction to damage.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Luckylancer wrote: »I mean, everyone seems to be forgetting to mention that light armor gets better defense vs spells when they mention that light armor takes more damage from physical. Light armor takes less damage from magic, medium takes less damage from physical. Seems okay to me.
It is not okay.
Match ups:
LA vs LA, it is equal
MA vs MA, it is equal
MA vs LA, LA user is toast!
Maybe devs tried to make this: LA beats HA, HA beats MA, MA beats LA. But this dont work properly. LA users melt down while no other match up end witha melt down. Using LA conventionaly is suicide. Only a few setups can pull it off
I get absolutely melted by Mag when I'm in more than 2 Heavy and don't have damage shields up. If I had time to break-free, maybe that wouldn't be the case.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The penalties should be (if they must remain at all...):
Light: Physical Damage
Medium: Magical Damage
Heavy: Reduced Damage Done
So that Light and Medium counter each other in PvP and tanks don't have any unnecessary collateral damage in PvE.
Give Orc a passive which eliminates this proposed Maim on Heavy and maybe the idea wouldn't trigger me
In my opinion, pure Melee, Mag or Stam, should be balanced to play in more Heavy than Light or Medium, and Ranged should be balanced to play in more Light/Medium. It makes no sense to me that an Archer should be in the same armor setup that a Warrior is, and likewise for Battlemage versus Wizard.
The number of players who want to play purely defensive non-Healer roles in PvP, i.e. "true tanks", isn't large enough to justify Heavy armor being "only for tanks".
I say Heavy should get a bonus to Melee Damage Done.
Edited by Urzigurumash on June 28, 2021 4:49AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »I say Heavy should get a bonus to Melee Damage Done.
LOL the most *** thing I ever read about armor on this forum3 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Or, hear me out on this, armor really shouldn't play a factor in offensive capability whatsoever.
Rather, the trade-offs between armor weights should impact the defensive and sustain capabilities of the player, operating on a linear scale from Light to Medium to Heavy that is less dependent on the Attribute point allocation of a character and more-so on the preferred combat play-style for said character/player.
A scale where Light Armor is favored for a high mobility, high sustain combat style that either prefers range or ducks in and out of combat; all at the cost of less armor rating and less ease straight up blocking attacks. Where Heavy Armor is favored for the opposite, a resolute low mobility combat style that prefers staying in the thick of battle with higher armor ratings and better blocking; all at the cost of less mobility and less sustain. And medium would operate in the middle, the balance of mobility and armor, offering the ability to stay in the heat of combat with the possibility of escape; a middle ground if you will.
Then let the passives add special bonuses for gradual mastery with that armor type, not explicitly tied to Attributes or Roles, but still worth considering when looking at the "best" armor type for a role. Things like stronger enchantments on light armor, reduced block cost on heavy, increased duration of speed buffs on medium. (Just ideas, sure more creative ones are out there).2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Andre_Noir wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »I say Heavy should get a bonus to Melee Damage Done.
LOL the most *** thing I ever read about armor on this forum
I assume your edited word there was "beautiful"
Orc passive "Craftsman": Increases your experience gain with the Heavy Armor skill line by 15%
Orc passive "Swift Warrior" at Patch 2.1.4: Swift: Renamed this passive to Swift Warrior. Swift Warrior will no longer increase Charge attacks, but will instead increase all Melee Weapon attack damage by 2/3/4%
Momentum = Velocity x Mass
Edited by Urzigurumash on June 28, 2021 7:43PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Or, hear me out on this, armor really shouldn't play a factor in offensive capability whatsoever.
Rather, the trade-offs between armor weights should impact the defensive and sustain capabilities of the player, operating on a linear scale from Light to Medium to Heavy that is less dependent on the Attribute point allocation of a character and more-so on the preferred combat play-style for said character/player.
A scale where Light Armor is favored for a high mobility, high sustain combat style that either prefers range or ducks in and out of combat; all at the cost of less armor rating and less ease straight up blocking attacks. Where Heavy Armor is favored for the opposite, a resolute low mobility combat style that prefers staying in the thick of battle with higher armor ratings and better blocking; all at the cost of less mobility and less sustain. And medium would operate in the middle, the balance of mobility and armor, offering the ability to stay in the heat of combat with the possibility of escape; a middle ground if you will.
Then let the passives add special bonuses for gradual mastery with that armor type, not explicitly tied to Attributes or Roles, but still worth considering when looking at the "best" armor type for a role. Things like stronger enchantments on light armor, reduced block cost on heavy, increased duration of speed buffs on medium. (Just ideas, sure more creative ones are out there).
I totally see where you are coming from on this and have mused similarly as well. It does sound nice, a system where you can choose any armour type depending on how you want to defend, as opposed to armour being governed by your offensive choice.
(In effect this suggestion is a similar, probably more elegant, alternative to something we have both suggested in the past - hybridising armour bonuses. As hybridising still ties armour to dps at least it opens up a choice independent of the type of dps)
But I think perhaps the game, and by that I mean it’s devs and player, may be too familiar with the current dynamic of armour weights tying to specific dps type or lack thereof to consider such a dramatic shift. Obviously also has issues with drop sets being certain weights etc but there are many ways to overcome that.
The other challenge with such a system would be to make sure that somehow each type is still viable in pve where roles are much more focused. As described in your example, all three types would serve a use in pvp but pve might just end up being tank = heavy for mitigation and dps/healer = light for the regen, with no one using medium as a middle ground doesn’t really help the focused roles of pve.Edited by ExistingRug61 on June 29, 2021 11:28AM0 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Anyhow, I think to summarize this topic:
I think most agree the changes to armor passives were overall a success and have been a positive improvement.
The question is whether these Damage Taken penalties are necessary given the additional Weapon/Spell Damage, the addition of new Status Effects - one of which gives Minor Breach, etc. Burst is so high right now, are these penalties good for gameplay?
Certainly, I'd rather keep these penalties than go back to the old way, I think most will agree on that.
Maybe most, but not all. I find the damage taken-debuffs to be absolutely ridiculous, especially for a tank, but also for healers/mags.2 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The "Rock-Paper-Scissors" metaphor is far more apt than they meant it to be, since anyone who's given it more than a second of thought knows whci would actually win if a rock fought a piece of paper."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle4 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Another musing: would damage penalties/bonuses be better if they were more focused on the damage categories of direct/dot and aoe/single target instead of magical/physical.
Something like heavy resisting single target direct, medium resisting aoe (already does) and light resisting dot.
Although given the long standing burst meta this possibly wouldn’t solve anything for light, unless dots were made more useful again in comparison to burst.Edited by ExistingRug61 on June 29, 2021 11:39AM1