Remove the damage taken penalty from light armor

Zekka

Light armor is already penalized in the defensive department by giving the least amounts of resistances, it was barely viable last patch and now it's basically a magsorc exclusivity because any other magicka class is bettter off running heavy armor + malacath just to survive.
Wearing light armor in PvP is basically asking to get deleted in one dizzy-dawnbreaker combo by any [snip].

[Minor edit for Bait.]

Berchelous

Got me at clownden.

Agreed.

MindOfTheSwarm

Disagree. This was a good change. For too long mag builds have been too tanky. No shields = death as it should be. If you don’t like it run fortified brass in light.

Vevvev

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

FantasticFreddie

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

Dalsinthus

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

This is nice in theory, but the reality is that classes like stamdens and stamcros get to have all three.

jaws343

Dalsinthus wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

This is nice in theory, but the reality is that classes like stamdens and stamcros get to have all three.

Yeah, seriously. The "wear fortified brass in light" solution is a joke as well. Especially when a stam player wearing 3 damage sets running all medium does more damage and has more resistance than a mag player doing the same with light armor. A mag light armor player wearing fortified brass is still at a disadvantage again physical attacks and is now not even doing enough damage to handle players wearing heavy or medium armor.

Vevvev

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

LOL, I have all three according to all the people I've brutally slaughtered in ESO over the many years. I have sustain via vampirisim's health cost abilities, as well as DK's Battle Roar and Combustion passives. I have damage in the form of DoTs, Swarming Scion, Leap, my Monster set, and the fact BfB scales up to 75% more damage based on my missing health. And my defense with mistform and stage 3 vampirisim gives me up to 30% damage reduction based on missing health and on demand 75% damage reduction. We can also throw in the fact all the spell damage and max magicka I have is boosting my healing by a ton, and as long as I keep them up I'm incredibly hard to take down.

My issue comes down to the fact I have to crutch on all that so hard because if I don't.... I die... in seconds. Against another spell caster I have no issue, but with a single Nightblade sneak attack ultimate and one swing of Executioner I'm dead. End of story. My armor cannot protect me reliably from at least half of the player base (assuming one half is mag and the other stam). If anything, it's granted bonus damage to these people against me! Like... seriously... it's stupid.

exeeter702

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

The reality is far from that.

While it's true that generally speaking, the key contributors to character build power are item sets, of which zos generally allocates the power budget accordingly, alongside cp distribution and slotables, the moment you add in the multiple other variables, skills, passives, general class balance, enchants etc, that fairytale trinity power balance where you are forced to chose 2 out of offense, defense, healing crumbles.

And even aside from ALL of that, there is zero interesting interaction between the range vs melee dynamic in eso. There is no situation where you can honestly say "if kept at range, the light armor caster has the advantage but when melee closes the gap, the caster is punished harder". That dichotomy does not exist in eso with how the game handles ability cooldowns and gapclosers. It's entirely lopsided, any melee that wants to sit on a LA target is going to. The irony is that magsorc, the only caster that can actually rely on strong enough damage shields, ALSO has streak to deal with melee.

Gilvoth

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

well said
quoted for truth and fairness.
many people have been getting the bonus of all three for many many years, it should have been nerfed LONG ago.

regime211

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Disagree. This was a good change. For too long mag builds have been too tanky. No shields = death as it should be. If you don’t like it run fortified brass in light.

What mag classes were too tanky lmao?

GusTheWizard

I am down for this, magicka already had trouble against stamina builds now it’s even worse, I run four heavy and three light it’s the only way I can stay alive now. I previously ran five light one medium one heavy.

MindOfTheSwarm

I am hearing all the points but no alternative solutions. Reversing or removing negative traits is not enough. A change on how they work might be better. Perhaps different armor types could have elemental weaknesses instead. Example:

Light Armor:
Reduces damage received from Shock, Magic and Disease Damage by 1% per piece.
Increases damage received from Frost and Physical Damage by 1% per piece.

Medium Armor:
Reduces damage received from Frost, Bleed and Poison Damage by 1% per piece.
Increases Damage received from Fire and Disease Damage by 1% per piece.

Heavy Armor:
Reduces damage received from Fire and Physical Damage by 1% per piece.
Increases Damage received from Shock and Magic Damage by 1% per piece.

Heavy Armor gets one less resistance as it already gets higher armor value.

This way all armor types only have to worry about 2 specific damage types as opposed to 4 currently.

YandereGirlfriend

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I am hearing all the points but no alternative solutions. Reversing or removing negative traits is not enough. A change on how they work might be better. Perhaps different armor types could have elemental weaknesses instead. Example:

Light Armor:
Reduces damage received from Shock, Magic and Disease Damage by 1% per piece.
Increases damage received from Frost and Physical Damage by 1% per piece.

Medium Armor:
Reduces damage received from Frost, Bleed and Poison Damage by 1% per piece.
Increases Damage received from Fire and Disease Damage by 1% per piece.

Heavy Armor:
Reduces damage received from Fire and Physical Damage by 1% per piece.
Increases Damage received from Shock and Magic Damage by 1% per piece.

Heavy Armor gets one less resistance as it already gets higher armor value.

This way all armor types only have to worry about 2 specific damage types as opposed to 4 currently.

That's an interesting proposal, to be sure.

Though I personally like the idea of Light and Medium countering each other and then penalizing Heavy in terms of mobility and damage done.

The way it is set up right now is quite bizarre, with Medium established as the obvious BiS and then Light and Heavy randomly set up in antagonism of each other. Stripping the damage penalty from Heavy Armor is fairer to the PvE tanks and sets the antagonistic relationship where (IMO) it ought to be - between the damage dealers.

rbfrgsp

I have got to say that in amongst the many rules changes unleashed in the last 12 months, the rebalancing of armour has been one of the greatest successes.

When I play in different weight classes, the game now feels different. Yes I can still crutch on dodge rolls in heavy if I build into it with Mythics and enchants but 9 times out of 10 it isn't worth it. Same, light armour is really reliant on shields for survivability in straight up toe to toe fights.

And medium is no longer gimped as it was before the changes. Everything has been calibrated around this middle path so that it no longer just a bad compromise choice in a game that only rewards min-max specialisation.

MindOfTheSwarm

I have actually wondered whether all armor styles should benefit both mag and stam but in different ways. For example Light could focus on penetration and resource regeneration while Medium could focus on crit and Weapon/Spell Damage. Of course this would create problems when farming sets in a big way unless of course they introduced some kind of ‘armor type transmutation tool.’ Although this could end up breaking the game. On a side note, I miss the old version of Wrath that boosted Spell and Weapon Damage when taking damage. It was OP in its implementation but I felt it just needed a little nerf rather than gutting altogether.

YandereGirlfriend

I would love to see hybridized values.

But it is for sure true that it would cause problems given the existing set weight distribution in the game. A transmutation tool could be a creative solution!

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.

Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

Stam gets all three, and yet mag must choose? Lol okay. Stam is and has been overpowered in pvp for a very long time now, and mag has been pushed even futher down the ladder with these changes, which are also pointless in pve as well. Add to that these proc changes and you may as well delete mag from pvp altogether.

Mr_Gallows

rbfrgsp wrote: »

I have got to say that in amongst the many rules changes unleashed in the last 12 months, the rebalancing of armour has been one of the greatest successes.

When I play in different weight classes, the game now feels different. Yes I can still crutch on dodge rolls in heavy if I build into it with Mythics and enchants but 9 times out of 10 it isn't worth it. Same, light armour is really reliant on shields for survivability in straight up toe to toe fights.

And medium is no longer gimped as it was before the changes. Everything has been calibrated around this middle path so that it no longer just a bad compromise choice in a game that only rewards min-max specialisation.

Yes. I find it great too. It is a good balance.

It is a problem however that other areas in the game are out pf whack.

Like your healthbar going... 100% 10% 100% 10% etc. Fast paced is fun, but the balance between damage and healing is just messy. Because you have no CD on heals and can very quickly and continously heal back to full, damage has to be super bursty... making the balancing of light armor a pain.

The game is just a bit broken in that way and a lot of the metas have been band aid fixes to that core issue.

Andre_Noir

rbfrgsp wrote: »

rebalancing of armour has been one of the greatest successes.

Wearing 5 light + 2 heavy for getting +5% incoming damage from weapon and +2% from magic at the time having armor equal to 7 medium is the greatest success for sure

Septimus_Magna

With light armor you're already weaker to martial attacks because light armor offers little physical resist. Increasing martial dmg taken on top of that is clearly a mistake. Assuming you wear 5 light pieces you take 5% more dmg from martial attacks. That effectively reduces your physical resist by 5 x 660 = 3300.

For PVE its even more significant because mag DDs are often forced to wear 7 light pieces. This effectively reduces your physical resist by 7 x 660 = 4620.

Light armor barely has any physical resist so why reduce it by another 3.3-4.6k?

zvavi

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely

So instead you have the same damage and sustain as full 7 light/med armor, but 7 light gives you negative defense in combination with lower resists as it is? Ye. Chose not to play mag in a solo environment.

rbfrgsp

Andre_Noir wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

rebalancing of armour has been one of the greatest successes.

Wearing 5 light + 2 heavy for getting +5% incoming damage from weapon and +2% from magic at the time having armor equal to 7 medium is the greatest success for sure

You're in 5 light, you have shields as an option. If you don't have shields as an option you shouldn't be in five light. Balance.

YandereGirlfriend

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

rebalancing of armour has been one of the greatest successes.

Wearing 5 light + 2 heavy for getting +5% incoming damage from weapon and +2% from magic at the time having armor equal to 7 medium is the greatest success for sure

You're in 5 light, you have shields as an option. If you don't have shields as an option you shouldn't be in five light. Balance.

This is such flawed reasoning.

Shields are fairly weak in many formats (such as non-CP...) and classes and being forced to stack into Max Magicka as well as use up 1-2 bar slots on expensive defensive skills should not be a requirement for being able to use the native armor type of your character. What build concessions are Stamina characters making these days in order to use Medium Armor? That's right... they don't make any... because it doesn't have any penalties. That sure sounds fair and balanced to me!

If damage penalties must remain then Light and Medium should directly counter each other while balancing Heavy with either mobility and/or damage reduction penalties.

Urzigurumash

What about changing this to Increased Martial Damage to Damage Shields only?

YandereGirlfriend

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What about changing this to Increased Martial Damage to Damage Shields only?

That's an improvement but why have a penalty in the first place?

Why does Medium Armor get to skate on penalties while still being able to spam Roll-Dodge?

WrathOfInnos

I don’t have a problem with Light Armor taking more damage than Medium Armor. I also don’t have a problem with Medium Armor having no penalties. But I do think that if Light Armor has penalties then it should also have stronger bonuses.

Maybe give 2% spell crit per piece of Light Armor instead of the current 1%. This would mean that players in 7 light would have 7% more crit, while taking 7% more damage from physical attacks. Crit would be a nice way to balance this because it’a something Magicka users often struggle to build, Stamina builds have far better crit sets and an easier time using daggers as their primary weapon.

Urzigurumash

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What about changing this to Increased Martial Damage to Damage Shields only?

That's an improvement but why have a penalty in the first place?

Why does Medium Armor get to skate on penalties while still being able to spam Roll-Dodge?

The broad consensus seemed to be that Medium armor was sorely in need of buffs compared to Light or Heavy, but I do think we had a Roll Dodge + Vigor meta from Dragonhold to Greymoor, the era of the rock-dancer, and we're probably always at some risk of returning to that tiresome meta.

In my experience, the increased Magicka Damage Taken on Heavy is a huge boon for Mag in BGs right now (specifically because ranged-proc NBs drive the necessity of some Heavy for most players), if not so much in Cyrodiil, but maybe this advantage will become more relevant in Cyrodiil when procs are back.

Anyhow per my recollection, a full hybridization of all 3 armor types would be most thematically in line with other TES games, right?

Overall I'd advocate for buffing Destro spammables (and Eviscerate), like many have said many times, and seeing how these current armor passives pan out. Whatever the armor imbalances, D Swing and Lethal Arrow are still the two best single-target spammables in the game, even if Impulse is close to Whirlwind.

Urzigurumash

As to my last sentence there - how could it be balanced that Mag has access to skills as effective as D Swing, Lethal Arrow, and Whirlwind, all in one weapon type, while Stam needs 3 different types? The Mag user takes extra damage from those Stam weapons. Maybe. I see some logic behind these Damage Taken penalties, I think they're worth a try in the big picture, as other adjustments are made. I agree they clearly put many Mag specs in a bad spot in No Procrodiil, but that's done real soon.

rbfrgsp

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

rebalancing of armour has been one of the greatest successes.

Wearing 5 light + 2 heavy for getting +5% incoming damage from weapon and +2% from magic at the time having armor equal to 7 medium is the greatest success for sure

You're in 5 light, you have shields as an option. If you don't have shields as an option you shouldn't be in five light. Balance.

This is such flawed reasoning.

Shields are fairly weak in many formats (such as non-CP...) and classes and being forced to stack into Max Magicka as well as use up 1-2 bar slots on expensive defensive skills should not be a requirement for being able to use the native armor type of your character. What build concessions are Stamina characters making these days in order to use Medium Armor? That's right... they don't make any... because it doesn't have any penalties. That sure sounds fair and balanced to me!

If damage penalties must remain then Light and Medium should directly counter each other while balancing Heavy with either mobility and/or damage reduction penalties.

Did you ever try using medium armour before the current system? It was seriously gimped. Why? Because the design of the game is always favouring minmaxing. Medium was the middle path and as such offered no benefits over either light or heavy in its previous iteration, in a game which demands you find a niche of specialisation.

Now, they did something very smart.

Because obviously the easy solution would have been to have simply buffed damage output on medium to a significant degree and made it "the DD armour".

But from experience they knew that this would have opened the door for some seriously disgusting one-shot builds. And if one-shot medium armour builds were allowed to proliferate then everyone would call for nerfs and we're back to square one.

What they did was an elegant solution that is pretty hard to argue with: light offers less protection; heavy affords decreased mobility. Yes, you got used to playing the game with essentially a crutch by simply not playing in the old gimped medium armour. But you can't really find fault in the thematic fixes they have come up with. Light armour should be weaker if caught without shields. Heavy armour should be slower.

Also, if we're talking PvP here and you're not stacking into max magicka, why are you using light armour?

Andre_Noir

rbfrgsp wrote: »

What they did was an elegant solution that is pretty hard to argue with: light offers less protection; heavy affords decreased mobility.

Light armor ALREADY had lowest numbers of armor
Somehow the lightest armor doesn't speed up bearer nor makes him more nimble but medium does (did u see it IRL ?)

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Also, if we're talking PvP here and you're not stacking into max magicka, why are you using light armour?

Here we go
1. Sustain because magicka skills cost A LOT
2. Penetration because mages doesn't allowed to stack spell damage
3. From previous u should know that the only way to boost damage left is CRIT STACKING