We need new requirements for veteran dungeon DDs

Casdha · June 2021

In 7 years I have never used or been a part of a pug. I do 10 to 15k single target and 30 to 50k on multiple targets. I'm not a true dps and I'm not a true tank. I can solo most base dungeons on normal and a few on vet. When I group I let folks know this ahead of time and I've never had any complaints and I've grouped on vet HM a few times.

IMHO the last thing this game needs are hard rules on how a person must play but I wouldn't have a problem with the addition of a competition mode with roll checks for group finder,,,,, good luck with finding enough players though.

Edit dang auto correct

TQSkull · June 2021

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Tanking and watching paint dry in Vet content is emotionally draining. And yes, you do need some form of dps to complete a good deal of vet content.

1. ICP: The Overfiend- He can be repeatedly revived throughout the fight
[...]

The boss will be resurrected if the fight takes to long..? What? O.o

iksde · June 2021

kmcaj wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

kmcaj wrote: »

Just get a group bro. No need to ruin stuff for others.

what about these "others" are ruing stuff to others?

like 3 randoms from finder and one of them being literallt ball of the chain for rest of the group not every wanting/caring to help?

or 2 very bad players in group making dung run horrible struggle for supprt tole which cant kill things so fast and so resulting them no longer going on support roles with group finder and you know what it results further? another tank less in group finder - more time to wait for DD to get group from finder because there is always many DD's here and tanks are less and less because of this approach

There's a kick. Get a group bro.

as I was saying there may be 2 bad players
I have experienced it many time and it is barely when one of them go for kick for 1 even if not knowing he will be next kicked

only leave group is working in most these scenarios with penalty for queue for next dung
kick option work mostly only when you are premade in 3 or all 3 are good players and jsut this 1 is bad and even here with randoms it may be problematic to kick this 1 bad player becasue someone else might have bad feeling about this..

pelle412 · June 2021

Wolfster wrote: »

It is also said time and time again that you can complete content with low dps, even veteran trials. That may be true, but it does not lead to an enjoyable experience for support players. I play games so that I can have fun.

This is nonsense. Some of the best times I have spent in this game have been difficult dungeons/trials with people learning and getting better and progressing and yeah sometimes getting their asses handed to them.

If all you want is a fast clear, you're always going to find frustration in PUGs. If you cant find ways to enjoy challenging runs, you're always gonna find frustration in PUGs. If you don't want to deal with PUG players you gotta stop PUGging.

Kudos to you for being that guy. I used to be, but my tolerance has gone down. Tanking a vet City of Ash 1 pledge and taking 90 minutes is just for me a waste of valuable, and limited time for gaming. If that ever happens again, I'd swap to DPS gear and help out. Similarly, my last vet Sunspire pug I had 4 iron servants because damage was so bad. I personally am not having fun doing that stuff anymore, so I am more selective with my time.

Colecovision · June 2021

MajThorax wrote: »

I recently created my first tank in the game, after years of playing DD and realized first-hand what others had said numerous times before: the majority of this community deals very low damage. In base-game dungeons low dps equals a long and frustrating experience. In dlc dungeons the group doesn't make it past the first or second boss. Now, I know many will insist on grouping with friends and guildmates instead of queueing, but the former is not always possible. So, we need to put a barrier to those who deal low damage from queueing in veteran dungeons. Right now these are limited to those 45level and above, which is an irrelevant and insufficient measure. From time to time players propose a minimum cp level for veteran dungeons but this is also an invalid criterion. I know players with 400cp who can pull a lot more damage than a 1200cp player. What I propose is an achievement that once you get on a character, you can queue with this specific character on veteran dungeons as DD. For example: Kill a 3mil dummy with at least 35k damage in under X minutes for 5 times. The dummy needs to be at full health when engaged and should only be engaged by one player without being in a group with others or companions.
Something similar can be done with healers and how much hps they can pull. I still can't think of a way to bar fake tanks from queueing because underachieving or even good DDs could queue as tanks and doom the entire group in a veteran dungeon.

My personal top vMA is score 529k (the top guys are pulling over 600k) and I've never gotten over 34k on a 3m test dummy. My current build live is 31k dps DW/2H and I'll be sure not to show up at you're special 35k club party. You have fun telling people like me we shouldn't use the dungeon finder. I'm sure they will all be better than me at clearing the content.

The thing is, I also unlock the vet speed achievement in vCoH on the pts with a quick solo almost every update, yet you want to lock me out? I'm sorry to hear you need 70k dps for all the vet HMs I solo with less than half. You must genuinely be trying to prevent the dps from doing damage on the bosses to need that much from them.

We need a legitimate difficulty audit on the dungeons. Normal DLCs are more difficult than the easiest 8 or so Vet and they should be labeled and assigned correctly. There's probably 5 differnt levels of dungeon, and normal/ vet isn't much of a guide. THEN if we are going to wipe in specific Vet DLCs because of my middle class (not bad) dps, please DO lock me out. I don't want to be the guy that prevents a group from moving on.

Wolfster · June 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is zero reason that perfect should be the enemy of good.

But you haven't even achieved good.
You haven't achieved anything.
You haven't improved on the current system.

So yeah there's absolutely no benefit in trying this suggestion.

Wolfster · June 2021

In fact, spartaxoxo, all you' achieve with this dummy dps check suggestion is the encouragement for DPS to queue as healer or tank.

spartaxoxo · June 2021

Wolfster wrote: »

In fact, spartaxoxo, all you' achieve with this dummy dps check suggestion is the encouragement for DPS to queue as healer or tank.

I'll take 4 dps runs over queueing as a tank with fake dps in most cases. And at least people are more willing to kick fake tanks than fake dps. Everyone wants to coddle them while they waste everyone's time and kill group finder because they can't be bothered to hit something as low as 20k.

And yes, there is an improvement in knowing your group has the dps power to complete the dungeon successfully. Which the cp check fails to do. A massive improvement. You'd get more people queuing as tanks and heals (both fakes and real), you'd always know that your team at least has the potential to finish if people will listen to instructions, and you would solve a lot of the frustration people are clearly having in group finder.

The only people who wouldn't benefit are the fakes who'd have to do normal or get better at the game.

Wolfster · June 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And yes, there is an improvement in knowing your group has the dps power to complete the dungeon successfully.

You don't know that, though. No more than you do from 300cp.
You know that once at some point under some circumstance someone hit an arbitrary number in a conceited circumstance. You don't know that they did it with their current gear. You don't know that they did it with their current build. You don't know they did it while they were their current race. You don't know when they did it. You don't know if they could ever do it again.

Your system just doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny. There's literally a single unlikely scenario where it works the way you think it does and innumerable ways in which it fails completely unintentionally. Never mind people deliberately engineering a score just to get around the system.

Your suggestion simply doesn't work. It's not an improvement. It isn't adding any security to the system. It only adds motivation to bypass the system which of course undermines the entire effort.

Which the cp check fails to do.

So does this.

spartaxoxo · June 2021

Wolfster wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And yes, there is an improvement in knowing your group has the dps power to complete the dungeon successfully.

You don't know that, though. No more than you do from 300cp.

You do know that. Because they have numerical checks in the game that you must hit to pass a dps check. And if people can hit those checks once then they have the potential power to do it again.

Complaining it can be exploited is true of every system possible, and as mentioned before is not a credible reason not to implement a check.

People can change gear to gain the system but they'd likely be the minority. And there is no such thing as a perfect system.

It doesn't matter. The simple fact of the matter is that zos knows how much damage we need to be doing to have the potential power to clear a dungeon. And that output is a number they can check.

sarahthes · June 2021

Colecovision wrote: »

MajThorax wrote: »

I recently created my first tank in the game, after years of playing DD and realized first-hand what others had said numerous times before: the majority of this community deals very low damage. In base-game dungeons low dps equals a long and frustrating experience. In dlc dungeons the group doesn't make it past the first or second boss. Now, I know many will insist on grouping with friends and guildmates instead of queueing, but the former is not always possible. So, we need to put a barrier to those who deal low damage from queueing in veteran dungeons. Right now these are limited to those 45level and above, which is an irrelevant and insufficient measure. From time to time players propose a minimum cp level for veteran dungeons but this is also an invalid criterion. I know players with 400cp who can pull a lot more damage than a 1200cp player. What I propose is an achievement that once you get on a character, you can queue with this specific character on veteran dungeons as DD. For example: Kill a 3mil dummy with at least 35k damage in under X minutes for 5 times. The dummy needs to be at full health when engaged and should only be engaged by one player without being in a group with others or companions.
Something similar can be done with healers and how much hps they can pull. I still can't think of a way to bar fake tanks from queueing because underachieving or even good DDs could queue as tanks and doom the entire group in a veteran dungeon.

My personal top vMA is score 529k (the top guys are pulling over 600k) and I've never gotten over 34k on a 3m test dummy. My current build live is 31k dps DW/2H and I'll be sure not to show up at you're special 35k club party. You have fun telling people like me we shouldn't use the dungeon finder. I'm sure they will all be better than me at clearing the content.

The thing is, I also unlock the vet speed achievement in vCoH on the pts with a quick solo almost every update, yet you want to lock me out? I'm sorry to hear you need 70k dps for all the vet HMs I solo with less than half. You must genuinely be trying to prevent the dps from doing damage on the bosses to need that much from them.

We need a legitimate difficulty audit on the dungeons. Normal DLCs are more difficult than the easiest 8 or so Vet and they should be labeled and assigned correctly. There's probably 5 differnt levels of dungeon, and normal/ vet isn't much of a guide. THEN if we are going to wipe in specific Vet DLCs because of my middle class (not bad) dps, please DO lock me out. I don't want to be the guy that prevents a group from moving on.

vMA and solo dungeon builds are very different from pure DPS builds as you are completely self reliant, as I'm sure you're completely aware of.

Vet dlc dungeons can be completed with relative ease as long as everyone has 30K on the 6 mill dummy, or around 60K on the raid dummy. But the higher the damage, the easier they get as you can completely skip troublesome mechanics.

I did vBDV HM with a 3 DPS group initially and we just blasted through everything. The second time I did it with a healer instead of a third DPS, and I discovered mechanics my first group had never even encountered... and they made it a lot more challenging.

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

No, this is elitist af

How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?

The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.

And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.

The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.

I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.

Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2021

Funny thing is, you wouldnt even have to put a number on the achievement if you went that route. The achievement could read, kill any 3mil, 6,mil, or trial dummy 10 times at full health with no assistance. That would be enough to greatly improve things.

35k on a 3 mil self buffed is frankly overkill for vet dungeons. But simply going through the act of killing the dummy 10 times is going to make a vast improvement to the majority of players. There is no substitute to simply beating on a dummy a handful of times. Also, as the game throws hard numbers at your face, it is going to be a wakeup call to a significant portion of the playerbase to take 5 minutes, watch a youtube video, and get better.

Also, this will NEVER happen.

sarahthes · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

No, this is elitist af

How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?

The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.

And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.

The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.

I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.

Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.

So, I can't remember the last time I pugged, let me just put that out there. I have no desire to gatekeep because it literally doesn't affect me at this stage. I did back in the day, though, and I appreciate those who gave me a chance to learn before I got good.

That being said, I said earlier in this thread and will reiterate - high DPS negates the need to follow mechanics with only a few, rare exceptions. Using vSCP HM as an example. I farmed this dungeon last Wednesday, did 3 or 4 HM clears in about 90 minutes chasing that damn style page.

On the first bosses, we normally killed both before the hide behind the ice pillar phase. That's with one DD focusing the one in the middle and the other focusing the outside one.

Second boss, we ignored mechanics, tank taunted the laser balls, and we just burned it down before anyone got stoned.

Third boss we killed before the second leimenid came out.

Fourth boss we ignored the cleanse mechanic and burned the boss while the healer outhealed the poison ticks.

And HM we basically jumped from winter phase to winter phase and didn't see more than 1-2 poison cones over the entire fight.

People want higher DPS in their groups because by skipping mechanics there are fewer opportunities to make a fatal mistake. It's not really due to elitism a lot of the time. It's trying to make the process easier and less prone to errors.

Everest_Lionheart · June 2021

sarahthes wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

No, this is elitist af

How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?

The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.

And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.

The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.

I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.

Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.

So, I can't remember the last time I pugged, let me just put that out there. I have no desire to gatekeep because it literally doesn't affect me at this stage. I did back in the day, though, and I appreciate those who gave me a chance to learn before I got good.

That being said, I said earlier in this thread and will reiterate - high DPS negates the need to follow mechanics with only a few, rare exceptions. Using vSCP HM as an example. I farmed this dungeon last Wednesday, did 3 or 4 HM clears in about 90 minutes chasing that damn style page.

On the first bosses, we normally killed both before the hide behind the ice pillar phase. That's with one DD focusing the one in the middle and the other focusing the outside one.

Second boss, we ignored mechanics, tank taunted the laser balls, and we just burned it down before anyone got stoned.

Third boss we killed before the second leimenid came out.

Fourth boss we ignored the cleanse mechanic and burned the boss while the healer outhealed the poison ticks.

And HM we basically jumped from winter phase to winter phase and didn't see more than 1-2 poison cones over the entire fight.

People want higher DPS in their groups because by skipping mechanics there are fewer opportunities to make a fatal mistake. It's not really due to elitism a lot of the time. It's trying to make the process easier and less prone to errors.

Similar experience on vLOM on tree boss. First run with healer and 2DPS burned it in 3 seeds, pretty easily ignoring stranglers and healing through mechanics. Second run with 3DD was a joke. First seed we burned it down to execute and nuked it after.

And that’s the point of high DPS, skip mechs all togethter. Less mechs = less chance to die.

Majkiy · June 2021

Just get a good DD friend, get companions and go.. I am doing dungeons as a tank with my girlfriend as DD, she is very good DD and with companions it's just as fast, maybe faster, than with pugs, lmao. And also much more fun when no one is making you mad for not doing mechanics or just being a bad player.

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

sarahthes wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

No, this is elitist af

How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?

The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.

And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.

The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.

I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.

Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.

So, I can't remember the last time I pugged, let me just put that out there. I have no desire to gatekeep because it literally doesn't affect me at this stage. I did back in the day, though, and I appreciate those who gave me a chance to learn before I got good.

That being said, I said earlier in this thread and will reiterate - high DPS negates the need to follow mechanics with only a few, rare exceptions. Using vSCP HM as an example. I farmed this dungeon last Wednesday, did 3 or 4 HM clears in about 90 minutes chasing that damn style page.

On the first bosses, we normally killed both before the hide behind the ice pillar phase. That's with one DD focusing the one in the middle and the other focusing the outside one.

Second boss, we ignored mechanics, tank taunted the laser balls, and we just burned it down before anyone got stoned.

Third boss we killed before the second leimenid came out.

Fourth boss we ignored the cleanse mechanic and burned the boss while the healer outhealed the poison ticks.

And HM we basically jumped from winter phase to winter phase and didn't see more than 1-2 poison cones over the entire fight.

People want higher DPS in their groups because by skipping mechanics there are fewer opportunities to make a fatal mistake. It's not really due to elitism a lot of the time. It's trying to make the process easier and less prone to errors.

None of that counters anything I said, and reinforces the point I am making about people trying to gate-keep content.

"Skipping mechanics" is not a requirement to play through the content, and should not be the standard that is held to.

Vevvev · June 2021

There needs to be some kind of check, but a raw DPS check just won't do. Have them go through an obstacle course of raining fire they have to survive through while burning down tough enemies and groups. Or you know.... have the standard to entry be veteran Maelstrom Arena and then make that solo arena available to all players. Like seriously, Maelstrom Arena on veteran is a very good low bar to set for DDs as it has mechanics, DPS required to make it flow smoother, and keeps them aware of their surroundings.

alanmatillab16_ESO · June 2021

If you want to limit the players you get for an instance there is no need to add new systems, you already get specific builds, dps parses etc etc with one simple action:

Don't pug, go with friends or a guild.

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

Did I... did I just read someone suggest Vet Maelstrom as a gate for entry to vet dungeons???

SilverBride · June 2021

These threads really need to stop because there is already a solution... make your own group.

PUGs are for every player of every skill level and the players queueing have no obligation to meet anyone else's requirements. So gather some friends and/or guildies and get a group together that fits your playstyle.

SilverBride · June 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

There needs to be some kind of check, but a raw DPS check just won't do. Have them go through an obstacle course of raining fire they have to survive through while burning down tough enemies and groups. Or you know.... have the standard to entry be veteran Maelstrom Arena and then make that solo arena available to all players. Like seriously, Maelstrom Arena on veteran is a very good low bar to set for DDs as it has mechanics, DPS required to make it flow smoother, and keeps them aware of their surroundings.

WoW did something like that. They had trials that players had to complete before they could queue for a heroic dungeon. There was a lot of conflict over it and they ended up dropping the requirement.

It is completely unfair to make any player go through any kind of proof to queue for a random group. If you want these requirements for your own private group, then that is your prerogative. But you cannot force your standards on everyone else. No one should be locked out of any content because another player thinks they should.

Gorakiki · June 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

These threads really need to stop because there is already a solution... make your own group.

PUGs are for every player of every skill level and the players queueing have no obligation to meet anyone else's requirements. So gather some friends and/or guildies and get a group together that fits your playstyle.

Yeah, I totally agree. My main's a healer, but I do a fair amount of PUGs -- I got all my Hollowfang and most of my Jorvuld's set in PUGs. I met some really cool people that way, and I've had some pretty bad experiences too (BC2 for 1 hour on the final boss, for the love of little fishes and daedroth. I finally left after the tank quit).

But the point is, with the exception of some people that are annoying, insensitive, etc, the community is great, and generally they're willing to work with you. And if it really doesn't work, well, there's kicking, or going away and trying again. I understand that for vet DLC dungeons, which have a longer queue, it's frustrating, but there's a lot of people who are willing to accommodate different play stiles.

I didn't read all of the previous replies, but there's also another thing to consider: what you do on the dummy is not necessarily what you can do in combat. I've seen impressive parsing videos from people who either had no armor/ resistances or stood calmly in stupid repeatedly.

And last, why should DPS be the only ones targeted? How would you gate-keep tanks and healers? And ultimately, doesn't just leaving the group work better (I'm thinking of the anyways buggy queues. I really don't want another level of complexity and bugs coming in).

AuraoftheAzureSea · June 2021

Regarding the "I'd rather have a low DPS who knows the mechanics vs. a high dps who does not" argument, I'd argue that these two things are rarely mutually exclusive. Someone who has put any effort into learning dungeon mechanics is likely to also be interested in learning about player/build mechanics, since both of these are aspects to a game that impact your performance and ability to complete content.

Most people aren't complaining about the guy who typically tanks or heals and has okay DPS + mechanics knowledge; they're complaining about the guy who HAs and "mains" a DD who wouldn't be able to complete single player veteran content on their own, but still queue for veteran group content.

You can swap low DD with "fake" healer and "fake" tanks, the role complaints really all boil down to veteran players being frustrated that group finders end up putting together veteran groups with members who are not ready for veteran, because they chose to queue for it.

ThePianist · June 2021

There are some vet dlc dungeons that require more effort than just doing lazy dps or proc set dps.

Moon grave fane for example. If you have 5k dps, you will never get through the second boss and his shield phase. Unless you have a warden tank that spams polar wind or an OG healer to heal through that damage.

Lair of Maarselok, I tank pug this dungeon a lot to teach new people. 90% of the time, there isn’t enough dps to make it through the Selene/strangler phase lol. If you guys think holding aggro on 13 Jeffies (Daedroths) is bad, try 30 stranglers and dodging them Fus Ro Dahs ;D

spartaxoxo · June 2021

The people claiming "the dps shouldn't have to go through another player's requirements" are completely ignoring that they are NOT another player's requirements. They are the game's requirements.

The dungeons themselves require a dps check.

And nobody is entitled to be carried. Nobody should be forced to pick up your slack because you want to leech.

Normal mode is for all players. Veteran mode should be for people who are veterans. It's on the title.

The dps requirements on these dungeons isn't even high. Nobody should listen to the guy who wants to set the req at something so high they can skip mechs. But asking you not to be a leech shouldn't be some unreasonable request either.

Everest_Lionheart · June 2021

ThePianist wrote: »

There are some vet dlc dungeons that require more effort than just doing lazy dps or proc set dps.

Moon grave fane for example. If you have 5k dps, you will never get through the second boss and his shield phase. Unless you have a warden tank that spams polar wind or an OG healer to heal through that damage.

Lair of Maarselok, I tank pug this dungeon a lot to teach new people. 90% of the time, there isn’t enough dps to make it through the Selene/strangler phase lol. If you guys think holding aggro on 13 Jeffies (Daedroths) is bad, try 30 stranglers and dodging them Fus Ro Dahs ;D

Can you even fit that many stranglers on the map? LOL! Maarselok is one of my favourite dungeons too. As long at the bosses aren’t pointed at me I got your back though!

SilverBride · June 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The people claiming "the dps shouldn't have to go through another player's requirements" are completely ignoring that they are NOT another player's requirements. They are the game's requirements.

The dungeons themselves require a dps check.

And nobody is entitled to be carried. Nobody should be forced to pick up your slack because you want to leech.

Normal mode is for all players. Veteran mode should be for people who are veterans. It's on the title.

The dps requirements on these dungeons isn't even high. Nobody should listen to the guy who wants to set the req at something so high they can skip mechs. But asking you not to be a leech shouldn't be some unreasonable request either.

If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.

iksde · June 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The people claiming "the dps shouldn't have to go through another player's requirements" are completely ignoring that they are NOT another player's requirements. They are the game's requirements.

The dungeons themselves require a dps check.

And nobody is entitled to be carried. Nobody should be forced to pick up your slack because you want to leech.

Normal mode is for all players. Veteran mode should be for people who are veterans. It's on the title.

The dps requirements on these dungeons isn't even high. Nobody should listen to the guy who wants to set the req at something so high they can skip mechs. But asking you not to be a leech shouldn't be some unreasonable request either.

If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.

and leave someone else in that place wanting to run vet pledges but having noone to run with and so being left randomly for people unable to run on their own dung for which they queued

Merforum · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

No, this is elitist af

How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?

The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.

And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.

The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.

I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.

Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.

Yup you nailed it, the exact same people who are ruining the daily random queues by speed running for daily rewards are the same people trying to gatekeep the vet dungeons. 3 years ago daily pledges/randoms were just fine everyone was helpful and always at least 2 people who would take the time to teach newbies. But last year or 2 these dummy humpers, who queue as fake tank/healer to do speed runs have literally destroyed the original 'TEACHING' mechanism that existed in DF. Now ALL New DPS have no clue so it is no wonder they can't do mechanics and their DPS is bad.

But the same people on youtube or forum just keep saying change gear and hump dummies and everything will work out. Nothing in game should ever be required to parse a dummy to do, but it would make some sense to only allow someone to enter a VET dungeon ONLY after they do it like 3 times on Normal. I think you should have to keep the same ROLE too, for instance if you fake tank a normal dungeon 3 times that would not allow you to do same dungeon on vet as DD, you would have to do DD on normal 3 times to get to do Vet. This would maybe reduce fake tank/healer and definitely at least let players do the dungeon a few times before trying vet.