I wholeheartedly agree that a gate is needed for harder vet content.
I just don't believe 34k on the 3 mill is the answer.. That's like 70k on the 21 mil.... That's trial DPS.

When I started I always heard it was good practice to do a 20k parse on the 3 mill before you do vet content - so that's what I did and it does make everything a bit more smooth.

20k single target for regular vet (maybe) 25k for vet dlc.

A gate is needed though...

It's not fun to be a solo DD the entire match having to carry 80% of the work load..
Neither is it fun to be a tank with two low end DPS players and a real healer..

I know Zos seems to go in the direction of nerfing their content.. But I prefer the bar being lifted as opposed to that...

CP5 wrote: »

But is the "Just join a guild" solution enough to justify the quality of pugs? Experienced players can find people to run with instead, for sure, but newer players won't have much of a chance if the dungeon queue is full of players who can't really do the content themselves. All that does is create a wall between anyone new to the game from getting into more advanced content unless someone more experienced goes out of their way to help, but as is now most experienced players refuse to use the dungeon finder to avoid these issues. Players need to be able to gain some skills from playing before entering group content and that isn't there, quarantining the dungeon finder won't fix that or help anyone.

I wasn't suggesting quarantining the dungeon finder tool. I was recommending lowering your expectations when using it to avoid disappointment.

The player base isn't a new player/experienced player binary. It's a spectrum of players at varying levels of skill and experience. Whatever your skill/experience it's not hard to find players of a similar level who are looking to tackle the same content you are. You will have much better experiences if you make the effort to locate these players.

Seems to me like you're just making excuses, which is fine. But the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Veteran Dungeons themselves do a great job at filtering out those who do not have the required skill and gear to complete them. There is no need to add a redundant, and infinitely less objective filter into the group finder tool.

The dungeon finder tool entitles you to be matched with a random group. It does not entitle you to complete the dungeon.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

When I started I always heard it was good practice to do a 20k parse on the 3 mill before you do vet content - so that's what I did and it does make everything a bit more smooth.

20k single target for regular vet (maybe) 25k for vet dlc.

A gate is needed though...

These requirements simply cannot be implemented with current game systems. How would you enforce it?
It's also just as unreliable as using CP as a gateway.

Even if a trial dummy was added to a public location and made available to everyone and the game took a measure of DPS and recorded it to use as the qualification for vet queues you can't enforce that people are using the same build when they port in. People will get around it and play the way they wanna play regardless.

Same way you can't enforce that someone queuing as tank has more then 5 hit points and a taunt slotted or is even wearing armour.

You can't even enforce those things between two different pulls in the same dungeon.

pelle412 wrote: »

This thread also refers to the mythical player with really bad damage but that knows mechanics. Well, in 4 years, I have never met this pink unicorn. My experience is that if you do high damage, you're a player who has invested time into improving and such players also learn and adapt to dungeon mechanics very well.

You can teach mechanics. There are plenty of players that are learning vet content. You can't learn vet content running normals, you have to run vet content. It's not a mythical player who has no damage and knows mechanics that you need. You need to be willing to help players learn mechanics.

It is also said time and time again that you can complete content with low dps, even veteran trials. That may be true, but it does not lead to an enjoyable experience for support players. I play games so that I can have fun.

This is nonsense. Some of the best times I have spent in this game have been difficult dungeons/trials with people learning and getting better and progressing and yeah sometimes getting their asses handed to them.

If all you want is a fast clear, you're always going to find frustration in PUGs. If you cant find ways to enjoy challenging runs, you're always gonna find frustration in PUGs. If you don't want to deal with PUG players you gotta stop PUGging.

zelaminator wrote: »

babykubrow wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

The game have a barrier already.. it's called levels.. your issue is that you have an expectation about how long time it should take, and that it should only take 1 attempt to complete

No one is expecting a flawless perfomance in a pug. But if you decide to queue for something you might not be ready for, it's not wrong to expect a certain level of knowledge.

With this I do not mean 90k dps, incredible performance and knowing all mechanics. I mean even just 20k dps and the decency to respect your teammates time and ask "Can someone explain me this boss?". If you roll in a dungeon and perform poorly, fully aware you're dragging 3 others down with you, they have every right to be annoyed.

By entering, they have fulfilled all requirements.. No one is expected to know the mechanics beforehand, nor how to fully play their class.. No one has promised that the dungeon will be completed.. I always enter a new dungeon, and trial too for that matter, knowing nothing about it at all.. That is my right, and the way I have chosen to play.. Learning as I go.. Should you happen to not like that, don't queue for a random group

noone is whining here about not knowing mechanics just because someone get 1st time to said dung

an by just entering, they didnt fullfilled all requirments, we just get into dung, you cant even say if you have fake tank or fake healer or fake dd, we will see who have fullfileed his role after 1st trash packs and boss or bosses

like great example fro yesterday frousvault pledge, 1st try with pug and friend on fake heal - it was to see already these randoms didnt get dps for this dung after 1st trash pull, we made to 1st boss with my friend doing 60%+ of dps, me 10%+ on tank
nobody was caring to bash boss when doing his mechanics, 1st fast wipe, I explained about this and what happened? again no a single bash and again waipe because boss killed me after moment of channeling hs mechniac attack
not to mention still I was doing around 10% of group dps as tank and my friend 60% so we just left because random didnt bother to learn basics of game called bash channeling skill and didnt have enough dps for this dung anyway

(and no problem wasnt with my friend not bashing, it is easy mechanic so why anyone random cant learn this then? if they can learn it then I dont have intentions carring them for rest of dung or if theyr dont bother to read chat when explaining mechanics here if they cant do higher dps)

zelaminator wrote: »

babykubrow wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

I don't see why I should tell them. It's never been a problem before, so why make one now.. And yes, I could go out and look it up, but I don't want to.. Simple as that.. And I go in to do my best, which is the most anyone can ask of me anyway.. Again, YOU have expectations, that is YOUR problem.. I have passed all the gates that the game set before me

Telling them seems like common courtesy, you don't have to, but they should be able to decide if they want to stick with your or not.

IF I told them, then I'd be judged on what they think.. I prefer to be judged on what I can do.. So you do you, and I do me

iksde wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

babykubrow wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

The game have a barrier already.. it's called levels.. your issue is that you have an expectation about how long time it should take, and that it should only take 1 attempt to complete

No one is expecting a flawless perfomance in a pug. But if you decide to queue for something you might not be ready for, it's not wrong to expect a certain level of knowledge.

With this I do not mean 90k dps, incredible performance and knowing all mechanics. I mean even just 20k dps and the decency to respect your teammates time and ask "Can someone explain me this boss?". If you roll in a dungeon and perform poorly, fully aware you're dragging 3 others down with you, they have every right to be annoyed.

By entering, they have fulfilled all requirements.. No one is expected to know the mechanics beforehand, nor how to fully play their class.. No one has promised that the dungeon will be completed.. I always enter a new dungeon, and trial too for that matter, knowing nothing about it at all.. That is my right, and the way I have chosen to play.. Learning as I go.. Should you happen to not like that, don't queue for a random group

noone is whining here about not knowing mechanics just because someone get 1st time to said dung

and by just entering, they didnt fullfilled all requirments

Yes, they did fulfill the games requirements.. They had a character of the correct level to enter the instance.. If they chose to use a fake class then, that's another issue..

ok right my bad, a bit I missed it to the point of not fulfilling their role rather than just requirment to enter to dung

zelaminator wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

babykubrow wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

I don't see why I should tell them. It's never been a problem before, so why make one now.. And yes, I could go out and look it up, but I don't want to.. Simple as that.. And I go in to do my best, which is the most anyone can ask of me anyway.. Again, YOU have expectations, that is YOUR problem.. I have passed all the gates that the game set before me

Telling them seems like common courtesy, you don't have to, but they should be able to decide if they want to stick with your or not.

IF I told them, then I'd be judged on what they think.. I prefer to be judged on what I can do.. So you do you, and I do me

iksde wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

babykubrow wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

The game have a barrier already.. it's called levels.. your issue is that you have an expectation about how long time it should take, and that it should only take 1 attempt to complete

No one is expecting a flawless perfomance in a pug. But if you decide to queue for something you might not be ready for, it's not wrong to expect a certain level of knowledge.

With this I do not mean 90k dps, incredible performance and knowing all mechanics. I mean even just 20k dps and the decency to respect your teammates time and ask "Can someone explain me this boss?". If you roll in a dungeon and perform poorly, fully aware you're dragging 3 others down with you, they have every right to be annoyed.

By entering, they have fulfilled all requirements.. No one is expected to know the mechanics beforehand, nor how to fully play their class.. No one has promised that the dungeon will be completed.. I always enter a new dungeon, and trial too for that matter, knowing nothing about it at all.. That is my right, and the way I have chosen to play.. Learning as I go.. Should you happen to not like that, don't queue for a random group

noone is whining here about not knowing mechanics just because someone get 1st time to said dung

and by just entering, they didnt fullfilled all requirments

Yes, they did fulfill the games requirements.. They had a character of the correct level to enter the instance.. If they chose to use a fake class then, that's another issue..

ok right my bad, a bit I missed it to the point of not fulfilling their role rather than just requirment to enter to dung

We can agree right away, that people who queue as a fake role, are quite often more of a nuisance than not

as for me it depends also on what dung Im going, like for basic dungs I dont carefor fake tank and heals if they have dps in this place, for harder dungs, for dlc yes fake tanks start to be to bad but for dlc dung they are really rare and mostly from rnadom dung for them xD and I prefer to get fake heal with decent dps thatn real healer....but again - if they have this dps, not like fake dps doing less than tank or real healer

Yes. The gates we have are insufficient and need to die. Instead you should have to take an undaunted test. Get ported into a solo instance others can't enter and get given a target dummy.

If you can't hit 20-25k dps, you don't get to do vet dungeons in activity finder. This wouldn't apply to premade groups.

All of them are doable at that level without hardmode. Might not be pleasant, but they are doable. And the bar needs to be low so that you can still get a large portion of the playerbase.

Yes, they may still not know mechs. But they shouldn't have to in order to do vet activity finder. The goal shouldn't be to only have experienced players able to find groups. It should be for everyone who is reasonably able to do the content to find groups. Even if they may take longer or need teaching.

This is supposed to be the purpose of the CP restrictions but it doesnt actually succeed at doing that because CP really doesn't tell you much about a player's dps.

Hell no.

Just get a group bro. No need to ruin stuff for others.

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Tanking and watching paint dry in Vet content is emotionally draining. And yes, you do need some form of dps to complete a good deal of vet content.

1. ICP: The Overfiend- He can be repeatedly revived throughout the fight

This guy can revive during this fight? I've never seen this mechanic before, even when vICP was brand new.

Also to those saying stuff like "oh someone might swap builds" or whatever? So what? There is no such thing as a perfect system. That doesn't mean we shouldn't even try. There is zero reason that perfect should be the enemy of good.

If you cannot hit 20k dps in a dungeon that requires a 20k dps check, you're not contributing and have no chance of contributing no matter how well the mechanics are explained to you. Players shouldn't be expected to carry these people through the dungeon.

Everyone who is able to queue should have a reasonable chance of eventually clearing the content. Not a guarantee a chance.

That should mean no mech knowledge or high dps required. But it should also mean a bare minimum standard is set.

These bad players are ruining the game for 3 other people. And finding out from a dummy in a solo instance is gonna be a lot less embarrassing and lot more objective than finding out from some stranger kicking you anyway.

ZOS has all the data to improve this. ZOS could give small tutorial, small information dumb, especially about DPS (largest role in the game) and no, OUT of the game *** is irreleavant for this topic because that info is there and yet the problem exists. Give access to 3M/6M dummy for free in some new empty instance to do DPS test on, with elemental drain atleast. "Oh no, they should buy it, its cheap!" - again, they don't and won't. This could be simply part of the dungeon finder - Test your DPS here icon - then it can show you soft DPS recommendations for dungeons and if you are in green, yellow, red (not worth going). Could help a lot of players that just don't know and yes that includes high CP. DPS check arena. Funny that for such complex MMO in terms of rotations and movement during it.. you have nothing dev designed to test any of this with. Simple light attack -> ability - light attack rotation test with 1 second global cooldown explained and shown would do wonders.. about 6 years ago.

Also, 10% of community on the forum are so casually entitled about everything, all in guilds and with people to run anything with (for now, just wait). The point of improving is not that YOU don't need it right now but the 70% of the community could use massive improvement on main features of this game that have not been touched in 6 years.

Problem might not even the the DPS number, problem is nobody is looking forward to play any of these. If 30% more of people running dungeons did these, they'd improve after some time and eventually start completing them. Problem is that they just dont run them. The pressure is quite high to not run them and when they try (pledge) a lot of times tanks will leave after even one bad pull. At this point there is no reason to run harder dungeons for most of the player base. People that click that queue (for pledge mostly) could just be 'testing' things out before never playing the new DLC content again or they want monster mask. There needs to be reason to play these and complete these in first place.

Better rewards should be happening for Vet DLC content - you should want to improve to that certain point (DPS, heal, Tanks self sustain of everything, including heal) to eventually do these DLC vet runs - nobody really does. You can't keep making content and players are fully ignoring it from day one. Thats not healthy for the game and what a wasted time making/balancing it. The completion/interest of new DLC vet dungeons and repeated runs must be minimal. Pledge is worthless when its the same reward as the non-DLC dungeons. Now doing solo runs for Kinra two handed weapons and its a joke, maybe specific 'token' drops in vet dungeons from chests and bosses that you can unlock one set item from transmute station after getting 30 tokens. You can run normal dungeons solo for chests and last bosses (7 in the morning if you want) or you can actually use ingame systems to get that 1 item for certain after 25-30 vet runs. Running for solo Medusa inferno staff was a nightmare and really bad experience, i stopped playing the game for a while after... is that really what ZOS want? You also probably just trash this desired item the moment it drops - wrong trait and rebuilding it in transmute station is cheaper when you have close to completed set. For the tokens you still need to run 25? vet dungeons to get 30 tokens on average but then you can get that one set piece unlocked, all done in transmute station, minimal work for devs and you have now one more reason to use ingame mechanics and do that MMO thing playing with other people. Maybe item drops in gold (good traits on those), rings in gold aswell (low chance). People will screach but there needs to be reason to run these, Vet DLC dungs especially, don't stagnate the game on Wayrest Sewers 1. Dungeons take quite long time to complete and you find more people *** around in dolmes and Blackrose arena for mindless level farm. I love dungeons but its hard to not ignore all DLS dungeons right now. Normal dungeons are also bit of a joke in terms of mechanics: sprinters, fake healers, fake tanks, fake mechanics that are just burned through - that should not be the main experience for playing the game, even farming items. I'd love to click 'vet' daily but thats just stupid thing to do right now.

iksde wrote: »

kmcaj wrote: »

Just get a group bro. No need to ruin stuff for others.

what about these "others" are ruing stuff to others?

like 3 randoms from finder and one of them being literallt ball of the chain for rest of the group not every wanting/caring to help?

or 2 very bad players in group making dung run horrible struggle for supprt tole which cant kill things so fast and so resulting them no longer going on support roles with group finder and you know what it results further? another tank less in group finder - more time to wait for DD to get group from finder because there is always many DD's here and tanks are less and less because of this approach

There's a kick. Get a group bro.