Help me understand.... p2w & paywall

Davor · June 2021

zelaminator wrote: »

Most people have a very skewered idea of what P2W is.. So the term gets used way too often

Maybe if Bethesda didn't keep changing the meaning of words, the term would not be skewered then.

WiseSky · June 2021

They real P2W is to buy a house next to the servers and get better ping for pvp

LordGodzilla · June 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

LordGodzilla wrote: »

Wolfster wrote: »

You can still finish any content in this game with base game crafted gear.

What exactly are you paying to win at?

i'd like to see a vCR+3 Roster who accept you on stamDK dps with only Hunding + spriggan

Goregrinder wrote: »

People just want everything for free, or for 5 bucks and think ZOS's bills will just "take care of themselves". That's really all it is. It's like when streaming services raises their monthly subscription a dollar every few years, as if hosting data and purchasing streaming licenses from movie/tv studios was free.

Not reallly. But i play FFXIV too. [snip]

When i play FFXIV, i pay 10€ sub every month, and 1 60€ extension by 2 years~.
Teso ? 13€ a month and 50€ every years.

So, yes it's the same you will tell me. But...
Look now what we got on TES content and FF content.
TES is 4 DJ and 1 raid + 2 area by years.
FFXIV got 12 trials for 8 ppl, 3 for 24, some for relic weapons and maybe 20 area+.

And wth on crownstore ?
What i got from game mount in eso ? 4 horse, 1 wolve dwemer and indriks... and 2 mount with trifectas trials.
all is in crown store like 90%

What i got from game in FFXIV ? So much without paying.
in FF, i can got more than 100 mount, got more than 100 pet, can got music box with all music ig for "free'
We have the same for other gamesthat share some features in FF. Like Monster hunter mount or FFXV mount for free again. Just pay the sub.

In eso ? For get a ebon sword from TES4 i need to fu**ing pay ? WTH. It's the same licences.

It's only that i hate in ESO. Why we don't have mount for area like guard in vvardenfell ? senche on elsweyr ? etc etc.

So yes, it's useless for some guy who just playing orc with purple skin and patnie nordic who just push leaderboard as a goal.
NP with that. But some like diversity IG with cosmetic.

You can tell me, just don't use the crown with your sub.
Yes, but i need it for 21dummy, the new regen ult stone, house 700+...

I just hate all poeple thinking it's normal, to buy something like Greymoor, and need to repay 100€+ for get the house 700 slot in this area. etc etc.

ESO is :
Look we just release something new and in your game + extension ! (house, assistant, companion,antiquities etc etc).
After that, next DLC give you only 1 on this thing, and after, they just put it on crownstore. And that's the thing i hate.

And don't tell me it's normal. Most of ppl here pay sub + year chapter...

And i don't tell about ppl who pay carry with 15k crowncrate, or buy some crown for sell and make gold for buy some golds mats or sets (or carry again)...

Lot of ppl saying eso is not so expensive for a MMO it's ppl who don't play a MMO RPG.
But ppl who play only on trials or who play only solo for quest 1 h per evening.

But after that, it's just my opinion, it's sure a lot don't have the same. But it's really hard when i compare other MMO...
SWTOR got more cosmetic IG than ESO and it's f2p

Joke but hope, new system for mid-june will be cool for that...

(sorry if my english is bad, tried to do my best)

[Quoted post was removed]

Sure, but they respect more there playerbase... and they don't are just a wallet.
You know they shut down the first version cause it was poorly optimize and really bad ?
In eso we got what ? Oh yes, we don't know how to setup auto attack, but okay ! It's feature, we search for thatx)
Look just PTS (feedback never read), update, maintenance, etc etc...
Oh yes i'm wrong, they do patch really quick when it's touch crownstore like Morrowind...

If i stay on ESO, it's only cause i got a lot of thing since i play from 2015. Everything maxout etc etc...
Too lazy to re work all in new MMO for now, and FFXIV community is special, very very friendly, but, special for me...
But if i was new, i'm sure, i will go for FFXIV.

We can continue by PM if you want

Shantu · June 2021

Not sure why some people get so bent over this. An MMO cannot sustain itself by subscription alone. It MUST provide additional incentive for existing players to keep spending money. Yeah, we're being manipulated to an extent. Just look at crit nerfing contrasted against the new Harpoon Kilt mythic. It happens. It will keep happening. It's the business model. Without it there is no ESO.

But as it's been stated previously, it comes down to what you consider "winning". ZOS knows many people are going to invest real money to chase the meta or the new housing or motifs. It helps them feel like a winner. So they take advantage of it. Why wouldn't they? Nobody HAS to play this game...and what you do with your money is entirely your choice.

This company pisses me off...a lot. But I'm still here and still paying for new content. And at the end of the day, that's all they really care about...which is fine with me...until I decide I have better things to do.

tc91101 · June 2021

I wouldn't consider it pay to win. What exactly do you "win" if you buy Blackwood that you didn't win if you didn't buy Blackwood? Your're paying for the content in Blackwood. You get a new area with new quests, dungeons, and of course companions. I guess one could make an incredibly weak argument that now you "lose" if you don't have a companion by your side but what exactly did you "lose". Even PvP wise i've never noticed expansions significantly changing the way a toon performs. I've always considered pay to win to be a cash shop that requires a person to buy the best gear else they get rolled in PvP.

zelaminator · June 2021

Davor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

Most people have a very skewered idea of what P2W is.. So the term gets used way too often

Maybe if Bethesda didn't keep changing the meaning of words, the term would not be skewered then.

I really don't see how you can blame ZOS for this

ectoplasmicninja · June 2021

Other than a few short breaks for various reasons, I have been playing this game every day since May 2017. I got ESO+ about 9 months in, and have had it ever since. I was gifted Morrowind by a friend, and have preordered all the chapters since. Each expansion has given me new things to do, whether it's quests, lore, gear sets, outfit styles, jewelrycrafting, dyes, titles, companions, etc. I have pursued what interests me and let the rest be. For the most part, I haven't changed my build in years. Julianos/War Maiden/Ilambris and False God's/Mother's Sorrow/Skoria get me through all of my content perfectly fine.

Every chapter is going to add something new to the game. It has to be something widely desirable or there will be no reason to buy the chapter. Therefore it will likely be an improvement of some sort. Is it that we should get these things for free? Should ZOS not introduce anything cool or new or desirable in new chapters? Should the meta never change so that noone will never need any new stuff?

That said, being able to buy skyshards and skill lines in the crown store makes my skin crawl a little. The cycle of "meta sets will be nerfed and then a new meta mythic will drop and then be nerfed" is pretty well established now too and also displeases me. But new classes? Cool new sets? New skill lines? Obviously we have to pay for new things. What's the alternative, that they make sure their new stuff sucks so nobody wants to buy it?

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · June 2021

Vonkarolinas wrote: »

hundergrn wrote: »

Coming back to the game after a year hiatus (looking at you month long jubilee at the start of covid) and playing for roughly a month now... I keep on seeing people use the term 'paywall' and 'p2w' to voice disdain against Zenimax for the release of new gear with the expansion.

'oh great, new content, why am I being paywalled for (insert gear/mythic here)'
'freaking eso is p2w now cause kilt/pale order/whatever'
'I'm done with this game, its all p2w now'

What gives? Is this not an MMO that has a consistent cycle of one paid expansion and 2-3 dlc (that is usually included with eso+ and able to be bought w/ crowns)? Haven't this been the case since Elsweyr? Since Summerset? Since Morrowind? Roughly once a year we get a paid expansion, that paid expansion includes previous expansions in the purchase, then get optional dlc that we can either buy/crown/eso+ for.

How is this p2w? If going by meta of the past and present, gear and skill load outs change by the expansion and dlc sure but this does not make prior loadouts unviable. Having this new gear will not make you top the charts. Make your numbers rise a little before getting nerfed in patches? Maybe.

How are we as a community getting paywalled and forced to p2w to remain relevant in our content and ability to play the game? I don't understand this trend.

They are just cryhards and following another trend where it is "the thing" to complain about something rather than admit they enjoy it.

You notice, despite all the boo-hooing and gnashing of teeth, they are still playing.

Yep we are. But careful with the wording mate we aren't in Alliance pop locked here. We are trying to be constructive and telling you our 7 year experience which you are washing away with a 10 second comment

And we do enjoy aspects of the game for sure, just not these ones!

hundergrn · June 2021

From reading the replies, thank you all for your input.

From my experience as a gamer of many years, my definition of P2W seems to differ from many. Where I see P2W as a cash incentive item that is obtained only by money that far exceeds what is normally available in a game. Paid content should include incentives to buy and play it. While most MMO's retire old gear, relegating it to trash used while leveling, ESO doesn't do that, thankfully.

The skyshards and skill lines in the shop does bother me a bit, but you still have to do that content at least once to get it. Gives a little bit of reasoning as a time saver and a respect to a persons time when leveling an alt. Skyshard, Fighter/Mage guild, Psijic skill line, and now scrying is something I do with each new toon to level them, their skills, and to get crafting up... its time consuming but does more than a few bucks does to rush things along.

I didn't know that Wardens and Necrolords are now separate to purchase from their expansions... is that due to them being in eso+ or bundled with new expansions? Seems strange.

Mounts and pets being stuck to mostly the crown store sucks, can't argue with that, having more earnable in game would be amazing. Fingers crossed the endeavor system isn't trash.

Housing is tricky, one would think houses only can be bought with crowns and that's in no small part to how Zeni has the UI set up. The Crown Store shows no indication of them being able to be bought with gold unless you go into the journal. More slots per eso+ seems like an incentive (not sure if you unsub if all thats over base limit gets pulled/deleted). Filling all the slots, even when buying furnished, is still quite a bit to fill. Even if some notable homes feel empty at max.

PVP... I've seen the meta be class counter class, crit happy, lag weaving, perma stun, all heavy armor, zerg on zerg, werewolf... never seemed to fluctuate too much with expansions and dlc unless there was major reworks due to taking advantage of existing systems or flaws in the game.

However, I'm not competitive... not looking for minmaxed builds to push obscene numbers, or following youtube/site meta's as scripture. Just playing the game and having fun with it, the story, and people I meet along the way.

Thank you all again for shedding light on the whole P2W/Paywall mentality.

ThorianB · June 2021

Despite some people throwing around the terms in order to stir controversy or w/e, ESO is not considered a pay to win game. The pay for expansions and higher levels, better gear, new...zones/classes/abilities/etc. has been a part of MMOs since MMO expansions existed. The entire point of an expansion is to add new stuff. If people don't want to pay regularly for the same game then the MMO genre is one they need to stay away from.

MMOs by their very nature require at least a portion of the player base to make purchases regularly. This allows them to cover ongoing expenses in running the game. It isn't pay to win, it isn't a paywall. It is the business end of an MMO. People need to get use to it or stick to single player games. EDIT: they also need to keep moving the goal post/end game to retain current players. They need to offer those of us who have been here for years more stuff to do/collect. Stuff that is desirable. This is how you retain players. That cost money and they need to recover their money.

ZOS has done a pretty good job at keeping a balance between content coming out, keeping a big portion B2P, keeping actual P2W out of the game, and keeping their revenue stream going. While i don't agree with many of their "content" decisions, they have done a great job at balancing the business part of running an MMO without gouging players.

jrgray93 · June 2021

Because if you don't get the kilt, you can't kill bosses. Nobody has completed a single dungeon in the past 7 years. The kilt that few people will even use effectively is going to change that.

jrgray93 · June 2021

Also, fun fact:

You can slot a couple of base game crafted / overland sets and complete any content with it. This game is so amazingly accessible when it comes to gear progression. People who call it p2w because of some minor BiS benefit on a chapter launch are delusional.

Also, I don't get people who play an MMO and don't buy the content. What's the point?

mickelstein · June 2021

I'm kind of amused that there is an entire thread dedicated to calling this game pay to win. I've been playing since right before the release of One Tamriel, and there are a lot of complaints I've had about this game over the years, but I've never felt that this game is p2w. Sure, if you want the shiniest target dummy numbers and want to play new content that is released, you have to buy expansions or dlc through crowns, chapter purchases, or ESO plus sub, but none of that will make you a better player, and beyond that there is no content you can't complete in this game wearing base game drop or crafted gear.

Nothing released behind pay wall expansions are going to make YOU a better player. Every player still has the same cp and gear levels regardless of whether you drop thousands into this game or pay $5 for the base game when its on sale. If you've leveled up and can't compete in pve or pvp with base game gear, you should study the mechanics of the game and practice rotations. Nothing you can buy in this game will make you inherently a better player or give you an unfair advantage over others.

If you want to see a p2w game, look at Black Desert Online where you can literally buy your way to max gear cap or games like WoW where if you don't have the latest expansion you literally can't get to max level.

ixthUA · June 2021

A player can sell crowns, get gold, then buy trial runs, get best pve gear, sell more crowns, make gear gold, - clear p2w. But all this is available in reasonable time for those who simply play the game, so this level of p2w is accepted by the majority of population.
Just as an example, i am playing another mmo that is sub-only with free expansions, but unless you pay thousands of dollars to obtain rare items you will be useless in the endgame. A player who is only paying subscription has no way to obtain enough of those items.

rpa · June 2021

ESO is a buy2play game. New content is behind 'paywall'. Including the shiny things one can find in new content.

ESO+ gives access to craft bag and dlc. Other than paying to access content you want to play or grind for shinies, no store thing is needed to progress so there is no 'pay to win' in strict sense.

Crown store has 'timesavers' to skip horse feeding and some of the crafting research timegate and also to skip redoing skill and skyshard grinds for alts. Personally I'd rather find some other game to play instead of paying for that.

Luckylancer · June 2021

When a game company sells feeling of winning over those who did not pay, it is pay to win. If thwy add horizontaly strong stuff, they sell the new excitement. If they add verticaly strong stuff, they sell winning feeling.

ZoS nerfed monsters sets just before mytical release. So non payers had even a steeper disadvantage. Now OP myticals of last year are gone, new OP stuff is gaze of p2w and pw2'ers kilt.

ZoS supposed to buff thrassian staragglers just enough to match harpooner's kilt. Then we could choose between not dying once with hp nerf VS not getting hit. Then I would not call it p2w. ZoS supposed to buff monster helms or base game myticals just enough to match gaze of sithis. Then I would not call it p2w.

I don't consider eso+ p2w because it does not cost as much as a newly released game.

madrab73 · June 2021

As long as warden and necro are the strongest classes in PVP its Pay2win.

Is there any valid reason they haven't been balanced with the other classes?

Sturmir · June 2021

I do not think this game is pay2win.

So in the case of what is winning?
I offer two compatible definitions:
1) achieving an objective.
2) Preforming satisfactory in a goal.

First, we should establish the base player. The average player in ESO (18 million of them, I believe) probably do only 30k DPS on a DPS character. They're more concerned with quests/sociables/occasional trials/houses/RP/Battlegrounds/dungeons. They aren't going to be the top preforming people. A lot of them don't own more than Morrowind.

I cannot in good conscious state that these people are not winning in any of their stated objectives- They clearly are. They're completing dungeons. They win at Battlegrounds. They enjoy the new quests, and read through lorebooks. This is a majority of players. For those chasing the dopamine of top-tier gameplay, you could argue that you -need- the new content, but there's always a bigger fish, and someone will outperform you, with vastly inferior gear. Pay2Win mechanics would ensure that inferior mechanical setups by people who pay less would not beat people who paid for those advantages. This is clearly not the case.

Most of these people complaining about these DPS sets are chasing these high DPS numbers and seek out god-tier-levels of gameplay. They may complain, but in reality, this expansion does not cater to them. It caters to the least common denominator, as all businesses do. That player doing 20k DPS? They probably enjoy the scrying mechanic from greymoor and enjoy finding new stuff. Who focuses on deco'ing houses and buying an occasional crown-store item. That's who Zenimax really wants, people who just sit there and spends money consistently and boost their numbers to look good to investors. That mythic item may be a good bone for the elite DPS-class, but the average player doesn't really need it and will do fine without it. Those who do have blackwood and get it will have a neat new gear piece to edge out a bit better. There's a lot of satisfied customers doing what they want and being happy with it or without it though.

Alpharos7 · June 2021

Personally I hate the phrase 'Pay to win', because it so often used incorrectly, like below:

madrab73 wrote: »

As long as warden and necro are the strongest classes in PVP its Pay2win.

Is there any valid reason they haven't been balanced with the other classes?

The classes are locked behind a paywall, but are not pay to win. This is because the classes themselves do not give an unfair advantage - Sorcerer and Nightblade are in many ways stronger, and the effectiveness of a class is largely down to the skill of the player.

Pay to win = Paying for something that gives you an unfair advantage. There is nothing that does this on ESO. Mythics are a great example of this, they have massive drawbacks and are not necessary, even though they are really strong but not unfair.

So the next time someone screams 'Pay to win' tell them to stop talking to Mai'q!

AyaDark · June 2021

P2W - are games where you buy equipment or can easely get it by donating.
As example if i get some gear with play 24*7 for 5 years and some one buy it for 1 day with donate it is P2W.
He one shots you and you do no damage to him.

In ESO any gear you need can be farmed for 1-7 days, so it is not P2W.

--- --- ---

Pay wall - is when you can not get some thing - because you need to pay.
As example with out buy some item for 50$ you can not win.

In TESO - you can buy a lot for gold. And there is no items that make you immortal and etc. So nothing like that is not really needed.
One more Pay Wall definition is - when game is expensive to buy and you just can not buy it to play.
And it is GOOD !!!
It works good against bots and cheaters - like fire wall.

But with price of 5$ and fact that you can buy all you need by gold - no pay wall.

--- --- ---

So do not listen to crazy people.

Wolfster · June 2021

LordGodzilla wrote: »

Wolfster wrote: »

You can still finish any content in this game with base game crafted gear.

What exactly are you paying to win at?

i'd like to see a vCR+3 Roster who accept you on stamDK dps with only Hunding + spriggan

Which is relevant to my comment how exactly?

Wolfster · June 2021

LordGodzilla wrote: »

Oh yes, we don't know how to setup auto attack, but okay ! It's feature, we search for thatx)

You know things like autoattack were removed in alpha/beta due to player feedback right? First person was added due to player ffeedback. In both cases to make the controls and combat work like existing Elder Scrolls games.

Autoattack isn't missing. It's not supposed to be part of the game.

ThorianB · June 2021

madrab73 wrote: »

As long as warden and necro are the strongest classes in PVP its Pay2win.

Is there any valid reason they haven't been balanced with the other classes?

Get on your phone download any of the popular city building strategy pvp games, play for a while(Game of War or any of its copycats are great examples of what an actual pay2win game is). You will learn what pay to win means really fast and how far this game is from it. Warden and Necro are not pay to win. Paywalls, which is what that is, are necessary for games with ongoing expenses. People who support the ongoing cost of an MMO will always get a better return on that investment than people who don't. That is a fact of life and just doesn't apply to video games. Invest more to get more.

Also you can buy most things with crowns and/or endeavors and you can acquire both with a time investment so most things outside of the sub and latest chapter aren't even a paywall anymore.

tc91101 · June 2021

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

That said, being able to buy skyshards and skill lines in the crown store makes my skin crawl a little. The cycle of "meta sets will be nerfed and then a new meta mythic will drop and then be nerfed" is pretty well established now too and also displeases me. But new classes? Cool new sets? New skill lines? Obviously we have to pay for new things. What's the alternative, that they make sure their new stuff sucks so nobody wants to buy it?

I don't really consider the skyshards or skill lines P2W. If someone buys them it's for second toon so they've already done that content at least once. Also, they don't make someone inherently stronger to the point where another player "loses" and they "win". I suppose the skill lines might have some minor impact in a BG or Cyrodil but I don't think one person is rolled by another simply because of a purchased skill line. It's on a 2nd or more toon anyway. With that said I've never purchased either and probably never will. They are too expensive in my opinion.

Alurria · June 2021

This game has two options to make money either charge a monthly sub or sell cosmetic items or new classes such as necro and warden, or werewolf and vampire. This is a business not just a game. They have expenses to pay for and guess what you are a consumer. Someone suggested you look up pay to win games try King of Avalon it's totally pay to win to the point that this players who have the cash to burn dictate how you play on the server or weather you are ostrizied or are a friend. Because everything you worked and payed for can be destroyed by one player who has payed their way to the top. That is pay 2 win. And the politics in those games are ruthless, because people will stab you to get close to those rich players.

ESO is nothing like that, there is no winning in this game. ESO is a living world not a static leaderboard. While they have those leaderboards most people don't pay attention to them. Personally, I don't care how many kills you have or achievements or trophies. I care about having fun. My respect is saved for those who go out of their way to help others and be kind. ESO is not pay walked or pay to win. You can play the game without a subscrition, but realize this people who do sub support the game so they can continue to make new content and run servers. People who buy crowns do the same. No one should get a free ride. I wish they would go back to sub only play and increase the sub fee too.

Veinblood1965 · June 2021

Rasoma wrote: »

Hmmm - so people really expect Zenimax to run ESO just out of the goodness of their hearts and not to make money?

I do! I expect them to come to work for free and live off any donations provided from the player base(tosses a sweet roll) . It's all about me you know.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · June 2021

Well there's confusion in the air...it's an MMO..it's not an MMO...it's RPG...it's not RPG...

Our comments are kind of missing the mark I think and you have to abide by what the direction is saying I suppose.

- The producer has stated that it's an Online RPG, but we still grind like a Korean MMO.
- The producer has announced that ESO 2 was Vvardenfell...then ESO three was (choose your chapter)
- The producer has stated that it is a service above all

The more I think of it the more it's starting to resemble those facebook games from about 10 years ago where you had to buy tokens, grind, develop your city and send constant messages to your contacts who you'd unfriend because of their browser gaming addiction

(Not enough resources and materials..here buy some in cash)

That's the feeling I'm getting from the game these past few years, hope it's changes drastically in near future. *shrugs*

Goregrinder · June 2021

madrab73 wrote: »

As long as warden and necro are the strongest classes in PVP its Pay2win.

Is there any valid reason they haven't been balanced with the other classes?

Uh...Sorc says hello!

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

tc91101 wrote: »

I wouldn't consider it pay to win. What exactly do you "win" if you buy Blackwood that you didn't win if you didn't buy Blackwood? Your're paying for the content in Blackwood. You get a new area with new quests, dungeons, and of course companions. I guess one could make an incredibly weak argument that now you "lose" if you don't have a companion by your side but what exactly did you "lose". Even PvP wise i've never noticed expansions significantly changing the way a toon performs. I've always considered pay to win to be a cash shop that requires a person to buy the best gear else they get rolled in PvP.

The argument would be sets that are available in the trials and dungeons that you wouldn't be able to get otherwise without the DLC. In the case of Morrowind and Elsweyr, people also claim that Wardens and Necromancers are P2W

I think these are incredibly weak and flimsy arguments, as you can "win" without these classes or sets, and the addition of content is not the same as "pay to win".

I don't agree with the arguments, but those are the arguments that some will make as to why DLC / expansions are "P2W"

Goregrinder · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

tc91101 wrote: »

I wouldn't consider it pay to win. What exactly do you "win" if you buy Blackwood that you didn't win if you didn't buy Blackwood? Your're paying for the content in Blackwood. You get a new area with new quests, dungeons, and of course companions. I guess one could make an incredibly weak argument that now you "lose" if you don't have a companion by your side but what exactly did you "lose". Even PvP wise i've never noticed expansions significantly changing the way a toon performs. I've always considered pay to win to be a cash shop that requires a person to buy the best gear else they get rolled in PvP.

The argument would be sets that are available in the trials and dungeons that you wouldn't be able to get otherwise without the DLC. In the case of Morrowind and Elsweyr, people also claim that Wardens and Necromancers are P2W

I think these are incredibly weak and flimsy arguments, as you can "win" without these classes or sets, and the addition of content is not the same as "pay to win".

I don't agree with the arguments, but those are the arguments that some will make as to why DLC / expansions are "P2W"

Yup, if I have the same chance of winning without said item, or without opening my wallet, then items that require you to open your wallet are not Pay To Win. Because if I PAY, then I should 100% WIN. And if I PAY but DON'T 100% WIN, then it's not P2W.