We need new requirements for veteran dungeon DDs

MajThorax · June 2021

I recently created my first tank in the game, after years of playing DD and realized first-hand what others had said numerous times before: the majority of this community deals very low damage. In base-game dungeons low dps equals a long and frustrating experience. In dlc dungeons the group doesn't make it past the first or second boss. Now, I know many will insist on grouping with friends and guildmates instead of queueing, but the former is not always possible. So, we need to put a barrier to those who deal low damage from queueing in veteran dungeons. Right now these are limited to those 45level and above, which is an irrelevant and insufficient measure. From time to time players propose a minimum cp level for veteran dungeons but this is also an invalid criterion. I know players with 400cp who can pull a lot more damage than a 1200cp player. What I propose is an achievement that once you get on a character, you can queue with this specific character on veteran dungeons as DD. For example: Kill a 3mil dummy with at least 35k damage in under X minutes for 5 times. The dummy needs to be at full health when engaged and should only be engaged by one player without being in a group with others or companions.
Something similar can be done with healers and how much hps they can pull. I still can't think of a way to bar fake tanks from queueing because underachieving or even good DDs could queue as tanks and doom the entire group in a veteran dungeon.

siddique · June 2021

I had 12/13 daedroths on me in Banished Cells II, naturally by the time I taunted the 12th, the first ones taunt would have run off and they'd end up towards the DPS for a while.

I got told by the DPS, "can you please keep aggro so we can kill the boss?"

-_-

Sarannah · June 2021

Few weeks ago I stopped tanking veteran dungeons, as I got a few groups in a row where the damage dealt by all the dps players was lower than my 2k DPS. Even with my buffs/debuffs. Players which probably could not even have finished a normal dungeon.

But up until that point, I had practically no encounters with low DPS. Having a requirement to queue as DPS, won't work. They could parse 100k DPS, and not press any skills in a dungeon. For low DPS the easiest solution is to just kick them, any further requirements are not necessary.

AzucarSalado · June 2021

Don't forget achievements for tanks to block and roll.

I guess they will do the she same day they force players who queue as tanks to tank (or, at least, taunt) and healers to heal. See the problem? We are talking about other game that is not ESO, game where tanks have mainly tank skills, healers heal skills and DD don't need to weave, just smash keys in certiin order.

Nephthys · June 2021

I am not sure how that could ever be implemented. A player can have the perfect gear with the perfect skills on their bar but be quite hopeless because they just mash their keys, or they don't pay attention to whether they should be focusing the boss or the trash, or because they are wasting all their DPS on a boss when he is impervious.

I just don't think raw numbers even begin to tell the whole story.

Tra_Lalan · June 2021

You don't need that much dps to complete vet DLC dungeons, there arent too many dps checks there. What is the main problem is the lack of knowledge about the mechanics in specific fights and also the belief "one does not need to know them".
I prefer a low DPS DD who knows what to do rather than a "pro high dps" that burns the boss on vMHK HM.

AbysmalGhul · June 2021

I think the TC is thinking it's more of a "Are these people only going to heavy attack with their lightning staves the entire dungeon?" kind of thing. Or even " Are they really going to kite one measly add around the room for the entirety of this boss fight?" kind of thing

Jeremy · June 2021

siddique wrote: »

I had 12/13 daedroths on me in Banished Cells II, naturally by the time I taunted the 12th, the first ones taunt would have run off and they'd end up towards the DPS for a while.

I got told by the DPS, "can you please keep aggro so we can kill the boss?"

-_-

Sounds like a nightmare. That fight with low DPS is one of the worse experiences you can have as a tank on this game. It will drain your soul.

Iccotak · June 2021

No

You get what you get in random, even rushers - who I despise

BUT if I want a better run that is more consistent and competent - then I have a guild I can ask.

tonyblack · June 2021

The only viable solution to this: vote kick underperforming group members. It’s ok to be a noob in normal dungeon, but there is a lot of ignorant players who queue for vet hoping to be carried and they don’t even realize or care about their build and contribution to dungeon clear. You can be friendly and suggest advice, though to be fair everyone who queue for vet should at least look through some guides. A few such kicks should at least force them to improve.

siddique · June 2021

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

You don't need that much dps to complete vet DLC dungeons, there arent too many dps checks there. What is the main problem is the lack of knowledge about the mechanics in specific fights and also the belief "one does not need to know them".
I prefer a low DPS DD who knows what to do rather than a "pro high dps" that burns the boss on vMHK HM.

Why not prefer a "pro high dps" who knows what to do as well?
I see this as a common response against high dps players "oh but i prefer someone with low dps who can do mechs" whereas, generally speaking, people who know their rotations and thus do "high dps" can also do mechs better than those who are running around heavy attacking or wearing some Frankenstein build.

AbysmalGhul · June 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

No

You get what you get in random, even rushers - who I despise.

Rushers are fun to watch though. Especially when they run head first into a Stone Watcher in VDOM and get fly swatted

seldomseenkd · June 2021

If a random group is not meeting my expectations, I leave and find one that does.

Greystag · June 2021

I only ever DD-Tank in the Group-Finder now, and even then I find myself dealing 60-70% of the whole group's damage, and that's considering only half of my skills deal damage (need a taunt, a ward, etc). Whenever I need to run actual hard content that requires traditional tanking, I'll ask my friends to come since they're great at their role and I can count on them. Not to say that there aren't good DDs in Group-Finder; I've met many with an amazing damage output, but they really are the minority.

Standing around refreshing your buffs while watching Andy light attack a mini-boss for 20 minutes is one of the worst experiences I've had in any game. It gets even worse considering how you will be blamed for any mistake they make, EVEN their own poor DPS (I've been told to "tank better" before because stuff wasn't dying fast enough). I feel like a lot of these DDs have some sort of "main character" syndrome which makes it hard not only to deal with their poor damage, but also their toxicity.

When it comes to toxicity there's no excuse, of course, but when it comes to dealing damage I feel like the actual game does a poor job at teaching players. I understand it if someone has awful DPS when the game has just told them "okay, these are LAs, these are HAs, and these are Abilities. Have fun." These players of course should seek a proper guide online, which can easily be found, but the game itself should do a much better job at explaining vital concepts such as weaving and rotations, especially if ZOS doesn't plan on eliminating the former.

Andre_Noir · June 2021

I find a far worse when you get a pro-healer that says "here with 100k+ dps we can skip the mech so I'll be DD here". That's happened with me once in vThorns on a gargoyle boss. And that guy (unexpected ye ?) was the worst and failed mechs almost every time in that run.
As a tank I got a DD that used LA only, but almost at last boss a another (normal) guy got d/c so I got another LA-warrior. If it's wasn't vBC2 then I would left at the start

Wolfster · June 2021

Vet content doesn't even require much DPS.

Seriously.

It can all be cleared with mediocre to poor DPS. The issue is that people don't know the mechanics, or they're so used to facerolling/getting carried that they think that experience is representative of boss mechanics.

The guy above with 13 deadroths didn't have a DPS problem he had DPS that only focused the boss. That's an approach to that fight that people are accustomed to but it's a mechanics bypass through high dps.

You can even do vet trials with mediocre DPS (and I have the achievements to prove it from my time with an old guild).

That's not to say some DPS couldn't up their game and do better. Of course they can (those that just light attack have a special hell awaiting them) but the core of the issue is about not knowing the mechanics and the community as a whole being so accustomed to having the DPS to blow through or bypass them.

Remember a lot of these vet dungeons were implemented when 10k dps was good and 20k was outstanding. The power creep is real.

irstarkey57 · June 2021

siddique wrote: »

I had 12/13 daedroths on me in Banished Cells II, naturally by the time I taunted the 12th, the first ones taunt would have run off and they'd end up towards the DPS for a while.

I got told by the DPS, "can you please keep aggro so we can kill the boss?"

-_-

Lmao bro I would have lost my ***. Though I kinda imagine you knew it was coming after fighting the other bosses on your way there....

irstarkey57 · June 2021

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

You don't need that much dps to complete vet DLC dungeons, there arent too many dps checks there. What is the main problem is the lack of knowledge about the mechanics in specific fights and also the belief "one does not need to know them".
I prefer a low DPS DD who knows what to do rather than a "pro high dps" that burns the boss on vMHK HM.

I prefer the ones who also know mechs but don’t need to do them and can just burn. But yea I mean I won’t do the dungeon if I have to pug. Well, dlc’s at least. I paid my dues with that 1200 cp ago

siddique · June 2021

irstarkey57 wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

I had 12/13 daedroths on me in Banished Cells II, naturally by the time I taunted the 12th, the first ones taunt would have run off and they'd end up towards the DPS for a while.

I got told by the DPS, "can you please keep aggro so we can kill the boss?"

-_-

Lmao bro I would have lost my ***. Though I kinda imagine you knew it was coming after fighting the other bosses on your way there....

Hahaha, it was major cringe moment for sure.

AbysmalGhul · June 2021

Tanking and watching paint dry in Vet content is emotionally draining. And yes, you do need some form of dps to complete a good deal of vet content.

1. ICP: The Overfiend- He can be repeatedly revived throughout the fight
2. ICP: The Flesh Sculptor - Flesh Atronachs will enrage if left up long enough and start to one punch man everything in the room
3. Fungal Grotto 2: Gamyne Bandu- The shadow execution mechanic is timed and requires the shadow adds to be destroyed before the pinned player is stabbed to death
4. ScaleCaller Peak: The ice adds that appear at 80%, 60%, 40% and 20% during the ZAAN fight, need to be burned down to make ZAAN drop her shield to continue each new phase. Low or mediocre dps won't be able to burn through both of them before the freeze burst damage kills them. And if they stay up too long, one will usually take a step forward and become invincible. (Don't know if it's a glitch or intended mechanic) but it happens regardless.

CP5 · June 2021

Wolfster wrote: »

Vet content doesn't even require much DPS.

Seriously.

It can all be cleared with mediocre to poor DPS. The issue is that people don't know the mechanics, or they're so used to facerolling/getting carried that they think that experience is representative of boss mechanics.

The guy above with 13 deadroths didn't have a DPS problem he had DPS that only focused the boss. That's an approach to that fight that people are accustomed to but it's a mechanics bypass through high dps.

You can even do vet trials with mediocre DPS (and I have the achievements to prove it from my time with an old guild).

That's not to say some DPS couldn't up their game and do better. Of course they can (those that just light attack have a special hell awaiting them) but the core of the issue is about not knowing the mechanics and the community as a whole being so accustomed to having the DPS to blow through or bypass them.

Remember a lot of these vet dungeons were implemented when 10k dps was good and 20k was outstanding. The power creep is real.

If they did that then they would be doing no dps to the boss, I've seen dps like these in the dungeon finder. One light attack every 2ish seconds with a skill every 10. They learn, from normal dungeons and overland that all they need to do to succeed is that, and that's all they do. If players simply, applied a single damage over time skill then used another instant damage skill alongside it they would be doing passable dps for many of the base game vet dungeons and even some dlc ones, but they aren't even doing that because they've never had to.

CoronHR · June 2021

vet dlc is knowing mechanics. i agree with what anyone's said about that. you can have super high dps, but if you don't know the mechanics, you're gonna die

oddbasket · June 2021

Vet DLC is gated at 300cp btw. My tank does 6-10k dps on boss fights and 20k on trash so I can add a bit of carry, and I often do, in fact another DD and myself carried a 500cp DD with less dps than my tank to the the final boss on The Cauldron yesterday and failed, we tried but eventually he had to leave and we completed it with another DD.

Also yesterday, I queued for a random vet and had Moonhunter Keep. I grimaced when I saw the loading screen, DPS wasn't great but fortunately something has changed in MHK, the behemoth werewolves on the 2nd last boss did significantly lower damage. It used to be we had to burn the adds down before they transformed, but yesterday I could tank 2 at the same time, and at one point 3 because yes our dps was that low... but I still managed to guide the group to complete it with many wipes along the way.

I think ZOS is understanding the majority of DD are indeed lacking from their completion rate data, and are adjusting older DLC dungeons' difficulty down when the novelty of the newer dungeons wear off.

iksde · June 2021

CoronHR wrote: »

vet dlc is knowing mechanics. i agree with what anyone's said about that. you can have super high dps, but if you don't know the mechanics, you're gonna die

if you dont have dps while knowing mechs you will also die in some dungs, few was mentioned above already and I will add few more:

- Cauldron - gg kiting last boss around with more and more addons with daedroths which are burning you/your stamina fast if you try to block it for a seconds to long, iron atro boss and dremora boss before - get overhelmed by adds

- Black Drake Villa - salamanders empowering minos and 1st boss mino - gg to tank boss a bit longer when he is empowere by salamander and even better - when you will have more salamaders comming! and on classes which are not full for tank like dk or necro wont be it even possible to tank i to long

- Cradle of Shadows - last boss - adds with their mechanics will ovelhelm you with constant stuns and damage on top of balls draining your resources if you step on them

- City of Ash 2 - last boss, if you cant kill boss before destroying all platforms then gg killing it without them

- Spindleclirh 2 - basic very old dung xD gg staying alive 1shot by falling cave on gargoyle boss if you have not enough dps to kill him xD

- Lair of Maarselok - 2nd or 3d boss cant remember - big tree to kill for which you need to kill golem for seed to be able to damage to that tree - if you cant burst this tree within 2 time taking down its shield, 3 at worst then gg just staying alive and killing all stranglers spawning everywhere which also can hit hard when they are more

and I think if we search we still could find a few more dung where without dps you wont pass even knowing mechanics if there will be anyway for dps checks

Master_Shorty · June 2021

Ive read most of the comments above and i can only think of 1 simple solution (DONT PUG), join into a good guild and run the content with Guildies, there are TONS of Guilds around and you can be in up to 5 at the same time so there is no reason to pug "ever". Even if you want to be in "Trading Guilds" most if not all trading Guilds also run dungeon content, and there are some rather good "free" Trading Guild around.

iksde · June 2021

Master_Shorty wrote: »

Ive read most of the comments above and i can only think of 1 simple solution (DONT PUG), join into a good guild and run the content with Guildies, there are TONS of Guilds around and you can be in up to 5 at the same time so there is no reason to pug "ever". Even if you want to be in "Trading Guilds" most if not all trading Guilds also run dungeon content, and there are some rather good "free" Trading Guild around.

sorry but I got no space for more guild - Im with 1 friendly guild, with friends and 1 ffriendly rial progressing guilds, rest I have trade guild and if I had more slots for sure I would be in even more of trade guilds because how we have trade system here

biggest question is why people are queuing for dung they are unable to run on their role? like....you got both dps who cant pass dps check in dung...then are they still ready for this dung to go or they should stop queueing for this dung until they get better to be able to complete it with their role?

if I as tank cant stay alive with even a single boss in dungs then should I be still trying to "survive" this without changing anything in my build with hope others teammates will carry me here by their high dps and kiting boss if it is able to kite?
or should I adapt/improve, change myself, my build to be able to survive this boss?

should I still queue for this dung I cant handle an boss here with hope teammates will carry me everytime here if that will be even possble? or maybe I should stop here with this until I would improe myself, my build for this to be able to handle that?

pelle412 · June 2021

I have tanked in this game for 4 years and it is the same problem now as it has been this whole time. It leads to less tanks in the dungeon finder queue as we use pre-made groups instead. This thread also refers to the mythical player with really bad damage but that knows mechanics. Well, in 4 years, I have never met this pink unicorn. My experience is that if you do high damage, you're a player who has invested time into improving and such players also learn and adapt to dungeon mechanics very well.

It is also said time and time again that you can complete content with low dps, even veteran trials. That may be true, but it does not lead to an enjoyable experience for support players. I play games so that I can have fun.

seldomseenkd · June 2021

iksde wrote: »

Master_Shorty wrote: »

Ive read most of the comments above and i can only think of 1 simple solution (DONT PUG), join into a good guild and run the content with Guildies, there are TONS of Guilds around and you can be in up to 5 at the same time so there is no reason to pug "ever". Even if you want to be in "Trading Guilds" most if not all trading Guilds also run dungeon content, and there are some rather good "free" Trading Guild around.

sorry but I got no space for more guild - Im with 1 friendly guild, with friends and 1 ffriendly rial progressing guilds, rest I have trade guild and if I had more slots for sure I would be in even more of trade guilds because how we have trade system here

biggest question is why people are queuing for dung they are unable to run on their role? like....you got both dps who cant pass dps check in dung...then are they still ready for this dung to go or they should stop queueing for this dung until they get better to be able to complete it with their role?

if I as tank cant stay alive with even a single boss in dungs then should I be still trying to "survive" this without changing anything in my build with hope others teammates will carry me here by their high dps and kiting boss if it is able to kite?
or should I adapt/improve, change myself, my build to be able to survive this boss?

should I still queue for this dung I cant handle an boss here with hope teammates will carry me everytime here if that will be even possble? or maybe I should stop here with this until I would improe myself, my build for this to be able to handle that?

There are good players in any guild, even trade guilds.

If you're in 5 guilds and you can't find a handful of other competent players in those 5 guilds then the problem is likely you. Either you don't have the rudimentary social skills to build alliances, or you just can't be bothered putting together a shortlist of competent players you can count on.

Nothing wrong with either. But it does limit you to the random group finder, warts and all.

Marillea · June 2021

Truth is, if you want to dps, you should take care of your build and rotation.
Just as tanks/healers are expected to run sets to buff and do their role correctly, I expect my DDs to be capable of doing the bare minimum to clear dungeons. Especially since many ONLY play a DD.

If the problem are sets, roll a tank or healer and gather your gear and only then make a damage dealer.

When it comes to mechanics, learning while trying is the best way. But if you roll into a vet DLC with bad dps, 0 mechanics knowledge AND you don't even bother to ask you are the problem.

CP5 · June 2021

seldomseenkd wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

Master_Shorty wrote: »

Ive read most of the comments above and i can only think of 1 simple solution (DONT PUG), join into a good guild and run the content with Guildies, there are TONS of Guilds around and you can be in up to 5 at the same time so there is no reason to pug "ever". Even if you want to be in "Trading Guilds" most if not all trading Guilds also run dungeon content, and there are some rather good "free" Trading Guild around.

sorry but I got no space for more guild - Im with 1 friendly guild, with friends and 1 ffriendly rial progressing guilds, rest I have trade guild and if I had more slots for sure I would be in even more of trade guilds because how we have trade system here

biggest question is why people are queuing for dung they are unable to run on their role? like....you got both dps who cant pass dps check in dung...then are they still ready for this dung to go or they should stop queueing for this dung until they get better to be able to complete it with their role?

if I as tank cant stay alive with even a single boss in dungs then should I be still trying to "survive" this without changing anything in my build with hope others teammates will carry me here by their high dps and kiting boss if it is able to kite?
or should I adapt/improve, change myself, my build to be able to survive this boss?

should I still queue for this dung I cant handle an boss here with hope teammates will carry me everytime here if that will be even possble? or maybe I should stop here with this until I would improe myself, my build for this to be able to handle that?

There are good players in any guild, even trade guilds.

If you're in 5 guilds and you can't find a handful of other competent players in those 5 guilds then the problem is likely you. Either you don't have the rudimentary social skills to build alliances, or you just can't be bothered putting together a shortlist of competent players you can count on.

Nothing wrong with either. But it does limit you to the random group finder, warts and all.

But is the "Just join a guild" solution enough to justify the quality of pugs? Experienced players can find people to run with instead, for sure, but newer players won't have much of a chance if the dungeon queue is full of players who can't really do the content themselves. All that does is create a wall between anyone new to the game from getting into more advanced content unless someone more experienced goes out of their way to help, but as is now most experienced players refuse to use the dungeon finder to avoid these issues. Players need to be able to gain some skills from playing before entering group content and that isn't there, quarantining the dungeon finder won't fix that or help anyone.

zelaminator · June 2021

The game have a barrier already.. it's called levels.. your issue is that you have an expectation about how long time it should take, and that it should only take 1 attempt to complete