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Why does one of the best passive perks in the game want us to wear different types of armor?
marshill88
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Not quite sure about why the game encourages us to piece-meal different armor types. I mean, I can understand having at least some perk out there that rewards mix and matching armor. But when you have a developer round-table and the topic for discussion is:
Dev 1: "Let's come up with a very powerful passive perk that will be highly sought after by everyone. It wont require an ability slotted, and it will raise all your primary stats."
Dev 2: "Sure, lets do it. That will be a very powerful perk indeed, but what should the criteria be?"
Dev 3: "I know! We'll reward players for wearing different armor types like going to a second hand store and picking out patch-work stuff from the shelf....players who piece-meal their armor and wear mis-matched stuff will get huge bonuses."
Dev 4: "Yea, like a leather tunic with metal boots and cloth pants."
Dev 1: "Exactly, that will definitely be a great thing worthy of a massive perk."
Dev 2: "You realize if we do this, it will encourage pretty much everyone to wear mis-matched armor."
Dev 3: "Yea! Lets roll it out."
Yea, maybe it didn't go down like that, but what is definitely for certain is that there were discussions and an approval process for giving such a valuable perk for such a strange condition.
Edited by marshill88 on June 13, 2021 9:40AM Dev 1: "Let's come up with a very powerful passive perk that will be highly sought after by everyone. It wont require an ability slotted, and it will raise all your primary stats."
Dev 2: "Sure, lets do it. That will be a very powerful perk indeed, but what should the criteria be?"
Dev 3: "I know! We'll reward players for wearing different armor types like going to a second hand store and picking out patch-work stuff from the shelf....players who piece-meal their armor and wear mis-matched stuff will get huge bonuses."
Dev 4: "Yea, like a leather tunic with metal boots and cloth pants."
Dev 1: "Exactly, that will definitely be a great thing worthy of a massive perk."
Dev 2: "You realize if we do this, it will encourage pretty much everyone to wear mis-matched armor."
Dev 3: "Yea! Lets roll it out."
Yea, maybe it didn't go down like that, but what is definitely for certain is that there were discussions and an approval process for giving such a valuable perk for such a strange condition.
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marshill88✭✭✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »That's what outfit stations are for...
sorry mate, doesn't answer the question. is there a better point to why the most powerful perk in the game is given to mis-matched armor? I can understand giving a perk to mis-matched armor, but the most powerful perk to it?
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laksikus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why fo you have to wear mismatched armor?
People used to 5-1-1 for ages.
But funny that you write about it now, that many people went away from it16 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Maybe there should be a small downside to having "the most powerful perk in the game"?16 -
marshill88✭✭✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »Maybe there should be a small downside to having "the most powerful perk in the game"?
perhaps, i can understand that logic, but it just seems very odd to have such a strong encouragement to wear mis-matched armor when there could have been so many other creative conditions for such a perk that would be more intuitive to roleplaying. Like me, you have probably played many roleplaying games in your day, and this mis-matched armor thing just isn't very traditional in the greater roleplaying scheme of things, and for good reason, its kind of silly on the surface.
Edited by marshill88 on June 13, 2021 9:51AM1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The passive isn't that powerful. You'll find in most cases you'll get higher damage from a 7 medium/light setup rather than 5 1 1. Of course the idea of 'power' is dependant on your goal, content and playstyle you wish to participate in.13 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's because the passive is old enough that it predates most of the quality of life changes we've gotten concerning gear and especially the Undaunted Monster sets. It's very much designed so that people don't get too penalized for making do with their off-weight Monster sets because ZOS really likes the RNG of making you grind for the weight of shoulder/helm you want.12 -
Dagre2✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »Maybe there should be a small downside to having "the most powerful perk in the game"?
perhaps, i can understand that logic, but it just seems very odd to have such a strong encouragement to wear mis-matched armor when there could have been so many other creative conditions for such a perk that would be more intuitive to roleplaying. Like me, you have probably played many roleplaying games in your day, and this mis-matched armor thing just isn't very traditional in the greater roleplaying scheme of things, and for good reason, its kind of silly on the surface.
i dont know, in most rpgs i always end up with mismatched armor. i think elder scrolls and fallout series are the only ones where i actually wear a matching set and normally only because they match the build i'm going for and there was always an extremely limited amount of sets in the SP versions.0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Better question is why light and heavy armor has penalty passives and medium armor doesn't? It's like giving medium armor more usable good passives than the other two. I don't get it? If you are going to penalize us for wearing armor it should be across the board. Wearing mismatched armor doesn't bother me but the penalties for heavy and light and none for medium doesn't make sense when compared to no penalty for medium armor. The reasoning behind my statement is it then narrows the ability to build your armor.11 -
joseayalac✭✭✭✭✭
✭Better question is why light and heavy armor has penalty passives and medium armor doesn't? It's like giving medium armor more usable good passives than the other two. I don't get it? If you are going to penalize us for wearing armor it should be across the board. Wearing mismatched armor doesn't bother me but the penalties for heavy and light and none for medium doesn't make sense when compared to no penalty for medium armor. The reasoning behind my statement is it then narrows the ability to build your armor.
They explained that it balances out because numerically, the Medium armor bonuses are weaker. They even nerfed some of them and the passives as well to compensate for it.5 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭joseayalac wrote: »Better question is why light and heavy armor has penalty passives and medium armor doesn't? It's like giving medium armor more usable good passives than the other two. I don't get it? If you are going to penalize us for wearing armor it should be across the board. Wearing mismatched armor doesn't bother me but the penalties for heavy and light and none for medium doesn't make sense when compared to no penalty for medium armor. The reasoning behind my statement is it then narrows the ability to build your armor.
They explained that it balances out because numerically, the Medium armor bonuses are weaker. They even nerfed some of them and the passives as well to compensate for it.
That doesn't make sense. I don't agree with it. Why would anyone in their right mind spend points on a penalty passive. Oh wait there was no choice. Hmmm.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joseayalac wrote: »Better question is why light and heavy armor has penalty passives and medium armor doesn't? It's like giving medium armor more usable good passives than the other two. I don't get it? If you are going to penalize us for wearing armor it should be across the board. Wearing mismatched armor doesn't bother me but the penalties for heavy and light and none for medium doesn't make sense when compared to no penalty for medium armor. The reasoning behind my statement is it then narrows the ability to build your armor.
They explained that it balances out because numerically, the Medium armor bonuses are weaker. They even nerfed some of them and the passives as well to compensate for it.
That doesn't make sense. I don't agree with it. Why would anyone in their right mind spend points on a penalty passive. Oh wait there was no choice. Hmmm.
Because many games/RPGs give you choices with pros & cons? You can take Medium, with middle-of-the-road bonuses. Or you can go Light to gain more X at the cost of Y; or go Heavy to gain A at the cost of B.
Seems pretty reasonable, honestly.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on June 13, 2021 1:51PM8 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As a Nightblade I hate having to choice between that one or full duration of Major Resolve through the Shadow Barrier passive.0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »joseayalac wrote: »Better question is why light and heavy armor has penalty passives and medium armor doesn't? It's like giving medium armor more usable good passives than the other two. I don't get it? If you are going to penalize us for wearing armor it should be across the board. Wearing mismatched armor doesn't bother me but the penalties for heavy and light and none for medium doesn't make sense when compared to no penalty for medium armor. The reasoning behind my statement is it then narrows the ability to build your armor.
They explained that it balances out because numerically, the Medium armor bonuses are weaker. They even nerfed some of them and the passives as well to compensate for it.
That doesn't make sense. I don't agree with it. Why would anyone in their right mind spend points on a penalty passive. Oh wait there was no choice. Hmmm.
Because many games/RPGs give you choices with pros & cons? You can take Medium, with middle-of-the-road bonuses. Or you can go Light to gain more X at the cost of Y; or go Heavy to gain A at the cost of B.
Seems pretty reasonable, honestly.
When you put it like that I suppose it would seem reasonable. However it's just another way to narrow choices, and to force fewer choices on you. The more classes are restricted the less choice we have. Which creates the META which is not a good thing in a game that previously gave many choices. This game wasn't billed as the holy trinity but it seems to be turning in that direction. I find it odd that people are willing to trade off buffs for nerfs. The consequences of calling for nerfs all the time has ruined many things. Shame on those that continue to call for nerfs and shame on the devs for listening. Pvp and pve do not mix well, never have. Change something to make pvp better ruin pve and vice versa. It's time to separate these two aspects and truly make it fun for both. For years and years games keep making the same mistake by not separating pvp and pve. You can have armor drop with two different stats one works for pvp and one works for pve. PvP is in a separate instance so why not? When loading into a pvp zone pvp stats load, when loading into pve zone pve stats load. Why won't that work? Anyone know? Servers process thounds of little actions all the time. It's probably wishful thinking at this point in the game life.
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Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »joseayalac wrote: »Better question is why light and heavy armor has penalty passives and medium armor doesn't? It's like giving medium armor more usable good passives than the other two. I don't get it? If you are going to penalize us for wearing armor it should be across the board. Wearing mismatched armor doesn't bother me but the penalties for heavy and light and none for medium doesn't make sense when compared to no penalty for medium armor. The reasoning behind my statement is it then narrows the ability to build your armor.
They explained that it balances out because numerically, the Medium armor bonuses are weaker. They even nerfed some of them and the passives as well to compensate for it.
That doesn't make sense. I don't agree with it. Why would anyone in their right mind spend points on a penalty passive. Oh wait there was no choice. Hmmm.
Because many games/RPGs give you choices with pros & cons? You can take Medium, with middle-of-the-road bonuses. Or you can go Light to gain more X at the cost of Y; or go Heavy to gain A at the cost of B.
Seems pretty reasonable, honestly.
That would be reasonable if sets came in all weights and if light and medium armor gave both magic and stam bonuses. The way it is now stamina dps have the choice of having negatives with heavy or only bonuses with medium but magic dps only can use light or heavy which both have negatives.3 -
Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭The undaunted bonus comes from a time in the game when most players were using crafted sets. Crafted sets were on par with most of the dropped sets, and a player could easily craft pieces the way they wished.Edited by Bradyfjord on June 13, 2021 6:34PM0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bradyfjord wrote: »The undaunted bonus comes from a time in the game when most players were using crafted sets. Crafted sets were on par with most of the dropped sets, and a player could easily craft pieces the way they wished.
On the contrary, Undaunted passives came out with, well, whole Undaunted thing which introduced monster helm/shoulder sets as absolutely BiS gear. Back then farming for those was a royal pain since you didn't get a helm every run (I knew someone who didn't get one helm after 200 runs...), couldn't trade gear with teammates and couldn't change traits on your gear. It was a pretty elegant way to both kinda offset the grind a little bit (since you had advantages to using other weights now) and encourage people to go for more varying setups than 7-0-0.
It's actually getting less popular now as with recent changes 7-0-0 is becoming a more dominant choice. Personally I liked the 5-1-1/5-2 more, I think it had some nore variety to it.
Also, uh, 'more intuitive for roleplaying'? This is a combat passive that's long (up til recent changes anyway) been a favourite of min-maxing people, and that's who it's been made for. For roleplaying purposes you can run around naked and still look like wearing 7/7 heavy thanks to the outfit system.1 -
LoneStar2911✭✭✭✭✭Is anyone actually going to mention the exact passive that the OP was even talking about?(PC-NA) @LoneStar29113 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LoneStar2911 wrote: »Is anyone actually going to mention the exact passive that the OP was even talking about?
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/undaunted-mettle0 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm pretty sure that having mismatched armor was not a rare thing in medieval times.. we are mercenaries, adventurers.. it makes sense2 -
That passive isnt that great any more and im pretty sure it was added to be used with ur undaunted monster set0
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Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭Bradyfjord wrote: »The undaunted bonus comes from a time in the game when most players were using crafted sets. Crafted sets were on par with most of the dropped sets, and a player could easily craft pieces the way they wished.
On the contrary, Undaunted passives came out with, well, whole Undaunted thing which introduced monster helm/shoulder sets as absolutely BiS gear. Back then farming for those was a royal pain since you didn't get a helm every run (I knew someone who didn't get one helm after 200 runs...), couldn't trade gear with teammates and couldn't change traits on your gear. It was a pretty elegant way to both kinda offset the grind a little bit (since you had advantages to using other weights now) and encourage people to go for more varying setups than 7-0-0.
It's actually getting less popular now as with recent changes 7-0-0 is becoming a more dominant choice. Personally I liked the 5-1-1/5-2 more, I think it had some nore variety to it.
Also, uh, 'more intuitive for roleplaying'? This is a combat passive that's long (up til recent changes anyway) been a favourite of min-maxing people, and that's who it's been made for. For roleplaying purposes you can run around naked and still look like wearing 7/7 heavy thanks to the outfit system.
You're correct.
But the people I knew would use crafted sets to get an off piece like the belt for their third armor type. But perhaps this wasn't as widespread as it seemed to me.0 -
Wolfster✭✭✭You can have armor drop with two different stats one works for pvp and one works for pve. PvP is in a separate instance so why not? When loading into a pvp zone pvp stats load, when loading into pve zone pve stats load. Why won't that work? Anyone know?
Game such as SWTOR have tried having separate stat profiles for PvE and PvP but unless you're going to make separate ability profiles etc too you don't actually resolve the problem and you create double the itemisation and balance workload So basically double the development cost for what is a minimal benefit. ESO also does kinda have this in the PvP buff effect I forget the name of.
MMOs just shouldn't try and do both PvE and PvP - the two are naturally in conflict. you'll only ever manage to reasonably balance one or the other. You're trying to create one gameplay system that equally solves two exclusive and often contradictory sets of objectives.0 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭Not even that powerful anymore. At one point it was a must but now you are seeing less and less people run 5-1-1. Which means the benefits of the perk are not being outweighed by other things.0 -
Galbsadi✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »sorry mate, doesn't answer the question. is there a better point to why the most powerful perk in the game is given to mis-matched armor? I can understand giving a perk to mis-matched armor, but the most powerful perk to it?
Depending your your role, it's not necessarily the most powerful perk. Most pure DDs I see wear either 7 light or 7 medium, depending if they're magicka or stamina, because the stats from the extra two pieces of their primary armor type severely outweigh an extra 4% base stats.
For tanks and healers, yeah, the extra resources becomes more useful, but is that REALLY a bad thing?
Also, you typically only see the combination being with the 'off' pieces being shoulders and helmet in endgame, due to sets other than monster sets being all one armor type.
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alanmatillab16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Wow, all that for a max of 1800 on a 30000 stat? almost as impressive as some of the CP "bonuses" now.1
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JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »Maybe there should be a small downside to having "the most powerful perk in the game"?
perhaps, i can understand that logic, but it just seems very odd to have such a strong encouragement to wear mis-matched armor when there could have been so many other creative conditions for such a perk that would be more intuitive to roleplaying. Like me, you have probably played many roleplaying games in your day, and this mis-matched armor thing just isn't very traditional in the greater roleplaying scheme of things, and for good reason, its kind of silly on the surface.
I'm a crafter. My characters wear crafted armor. If you're using the same style, there is no "mismatched" armor.
My dk tank is going to be in more heavy gear than light. My sorcerer is going to be in more light than heavy. Being able to mix/match gear works just great with role-playing.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not wearing 7 pieces of the same armor has always resulted in a significant damage penalty. Because it's one of the steepest cost choices in the game, it also offers one of the better buffs in the game.
The end result being you trade significant damage for significant survivability.
It also offers good synergy with the 2 piece monster sets the Undaunted offer. It makes sense for the big buff from the Undaunted skillset to be enhanced by wearing Undaunted gear.
Seems fair and logical to me.
You can still have two 5 piece bonuses while doing this, so the gear doesn't need to be mismatched.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 14, 2021 3:37PM0
